Instant Death Revisions Part 2

[Darksmash]

About the thread if u dont mind, what are u thoughts about the Low 1-C/1-B stuff?

I am not that knowledgeable on Yogiri but based on the quotes I have seen I disagree with the abyss being transcendent over the lower dimension, given how it's literally used in combat to dodge attacks and ignore durability. If it were literally transcendent you would expect they would just one shot their enemy in the lower dimensions.

Also, correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the abyss stuff from the LN while the UEG stuff from the WN?

 

[Shyouu]

given how it's literally used in combat to dodge attacks and ignore durability.

I mean, we accepted Yakou madara's 24 dimensional barriers as "proof" for 1-B shinza, when it's used in combat, so i don't see the problem of it.

If it were literally transcendent you would expect they would just one shot their enemy in the lower dimensions.

Except that they didn't really intended to and wanted to, they simply want to avoid attacks by raising their existence, it doesn't disprove it.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Also, correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the abyss stuff from the LN while the UEG stuff from the WN?

Cross scaling

 

[Bernkastelll]

Also, correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the abyss stuff from the LN while the UEG stuff from the WN?

About this, we allow LN stuff cross scale with WN stuff in Instant Death, as they have almost no changes, different from TenSura and others verses

 

[Darksmash]

I mean, we accepted Yakou madara's 24 dimensional barriers as "proof" for 1-B shinza, when it's used in combat, so i don't see the problem of it.

I disagree with that too, for the record

 

[Gohanblanco217]

About this, we allow LN stuff cross scale with WN stuff in Instant Death, as they have almost no changes, different from TenSura and others verses

Isn't the difference in power between Yogiri from LN and WN very huge? I mean Yogiri from WN is 2-B while the LN version is still nowhere near to that level yet

 

[Bernkastelll]

Isn't the difference in power between Yogiri from LN and WN very huge? I mean Yogiri from WN is 2-B while the LN version is still nowhere near to that level yet

I mean, the LN didnt catch up with WN, but until now, the way that the things are written is the same, almost no differences, same with Maou Gakuin, but still, Yogiri power is the same, as heavenly record eater stuff (2-B) is in volume 3 iirc

 

[Tago238]

Except from the abyss being mentioned apparently.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Except from the abyss being mentioned apparently.

Yeah

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I mean, the LN didnt catch up with WN, but until now, the way that the things are written is the same, almost no differences, same with Maou Gakuin, but still, Yogiri power is the same, as heavenly record eater stuff is in volume 3 iirc

Actually I didn't read the LN version so did Yogiri fight the HRE in LN?

 

[Ningenron]

Can someone explain from where "higher-level space-time continuum" is coming from tho, because I'm sure af the raw no where mentions Space and time.

 

[Muhsula]

To specify difference between LN and WN yes, there almost no difference in main story. Author himself said it many times in the after word of LN.

For the abyss, it's in side story when Yogiri in the past. However just because in the WN didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. As author usually connect the thing that he mention in the side story of LN in WN version. Like for example his childhood friend enju sumeragi, his youkai guardian that only appear in LN buat also appear in volume 8 of WN.

By the way, it's probably irrelevant but Yogiri when in the past is stronger than Yogiri in the main part (because mostly yogiri didn't have any seal yet during his time in the past). This too also have been confirmed by author himself.

 

[Bernkastelll]

To specify difference between LN and WN yes, there almost no difference in main story. Author himself said it many times in the after word of LN.

For the abyss, it's in side story when Yogiri in the past. However just because in the WN didn't mention it doesn't mean it didn't happen. As author usually connect the thing that he mention in the side story of LN in WN version. Like for example his childhood friend enju sumeragi, his youkai guardian that only appear in LN buat also appear in volume 8 of WN.

By the way, it's probably irrelevant but Yogiri when in the past is stronger than Yogiri in the main part (because mostly yogiri didn't have any seal yet during his time in the past). This too also have been confirmed by author himself.

Yes, I have here a screen shot from volume 1 that the author himself stated that the plot is literally the same

 

[Ningenron]

If they are exactly the same what the point of cross scaling then :/

 

[Bernkastelll]

If they are exactly the same what the point of cross scaling then :/

Some minor extra informations that Light Novel has, but the plot still is the same, as I showed in the scan above

 

[Gohanblanco217]

If they are exactly the same what the point of cross scaling then :/

Not 100% the same but Meh

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

The link you provided is merely the continuum hypothesis which boils down to “there’s no size of infinity between the natural and real sets”.

So somehow adding another 2-dimensional element/variable to the already infinite set to make its cardinality bigger is equated to a new dimensional axis?

Cantor’s diagonal argument is basically how countable infinity can encompass infinite sets of countable infinity(set of odds, evens, etc), since by going a diagonal once. It would guarantee to hit every number(one to one correspondence). Although if another infinite set which composed of two variables(say BX, so it’d be XXBXX.., BXBXBX…, and XBXBX…), even if one would use the diagonal argument. There will still be an infinite set of it that didn’t got contained by the countable infinite set by reversing the components once.

Increasing, through a powerset, the cardinality of a countable infinite 2-dimensional set into an uncountable one doesn’t magically give them depth, if anything they are just innumerable greater in quantity than the former set. Yeah this is derailing, feel free to comment this on my wall if you want to continue.

The citation I gave you literally said that R = 2^ℵ0, but that doesn't matter.

You still, miss the point about that's not how we treat higher infinities here (aleph-1 is R^1, etc), P(ℵ0) is ℵ1, P(P(ℵ0) is ℵ2. So Whether you stop using your application regarding uncountable infinite of your way here or make a CRT to change the fundamental core of the Tiering System.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It was called by a number of names, but simply put, it was a world whose length, width, and height were complemented by an additional fifth dimension.
The man was able to move freely between that dimension and three-dimensional space. It was an incredibly powerful ability.
By passing through that dimension, he could go anywhere he wanted and avoid any attacks.
As he had shown, he could use it to bypass all sorts of defenses and even destroy his enemies from the inside.
Besides, ordinary humans could not perceive this dimension, making it impossible for them to fight back.
The lower beings appears only as a character on a page. Due to the difference in dimensions.

That, on its own, is not really enough for the higher-dimensional space in question to qualify for a higher tier, for reasons that were already mentioned up there. To quote the FAQ page again:

However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case.

The "reasons" outlined above, in this case, being that a lower-dimensional entity would always be "flat" in comparision to a higher-dimensional one, regardless of its actual power in relation to them. It's perfectly sensible to conceive of a 2-dimensional object that's more massive than objects in our universe, for instance, but it'd still be infinitely thin even in such a scenario (Similar to an image on a screen indeed), and obviously not fiction or unreality to us, so this comparision isn't necessarily grounds to assume a Reality-Fiction Difference is at play.

Granted, like the OP mentioned before, things like that indeed fall under a case-by-case scenario. And as noted in another part of the FAQ:

One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

So, is there anything suggesting as much in here? I do see some basis to assume this scenario is at play, given that the higher-dimensional planes in question seem to be depicted as whole spacetime continuums that stretch directly above lower-dimensional planes, and how the destruction of those higher universes is stated to be "a chain of even greater tragedies." But explicit evidence of that would be nice.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I'll trust Ultima's sense of judgement on this matter then.

 

[Lapsad]

shit ultima come here by himself , retreat.

 

[Darksmash]

Just wanna ask were those higher universes actually called "higher space times" in the raws? Because the raws I checked just called them higher universes

 

[Saiyan40009]

I think that seeing arguments against seem to make more sense the fact that subject affirms that he sees it flat does not seem to indicate a difference reality fiction or even infinitely change to neutral

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Just wanna ask were those higher universes actually called "higher space times" in the raws? Because the raws I checked just called them higher universes

Universe = space-time contenum so that doesn't really matter

 

[Bernkastelll]

I think that seeing arguments against seem to make more sense the fact that subject affirms that he sees it flat does not seem to indicate a difference reality fiction or even infinitely change to neutral

Well, the differences of dimensions is also stated to be like a character in a page, but i wont talk too much about it because this is a LN stuff, and despite that I read the web novel, I didnt reached that part in the light novel yet

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ultima, I'll give you 5 bucks if you reject this.

Anyways, I'll change my vote to neutral on the L1C and 1-B shit, for now. I still think they'd be able to reach Tier 1 at the end of the day, but eh. It seems the standard for that shit is a bit harder than I expected.

 

[Darksmash]

Universe = space-time contenum so that doesn't really matter

I would prefer if something like that is translated as accurately as possible, since we all know how much Tier 1 stuff relies on extrapolating based on buzzwords

 

[Saiyan40009]

The echo comparing as flat beings makes me think that it is more only an analogy to that they are flat beings, it seems only a geometric difference but not an infinite or fictional reality

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I would prefer if something like that is translated as accurately as possible, since we all know how much Tier 1 stuff relies on extrapolating based on buzzwords

Well do you have the Japanese quote?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Ultima, I'll give you 5 bucks if you reject this.

Hm. That's like, 25 bucks, doesn't seem like a bad deal.

 

[Saiyan40009]

well the fact that it is said planes and then compares it page seems to be a geometric analogy that a fictional or infinite reality

 

[Darksmash]

Well do you have the Japanese quote?

ＵＥＧは平然と、トーイチロウの背後に出現していた。

そもそもが、まったく別の世界からここに来ているのだから、別の宇宙への移動などお互いにできて当たり前なのだ。

そこからはさらなる悲劇と惨劇の繰り返しだった。

つまり、お互いに宇宙間を移動し、相手が移動する宇宙を予測して、その宇宙を消し飛ばすのだ。

相手のいる宇宙を内包する多元宇宙の外へと移動し、そこからその宇宙を攻撃する。

するとさらに相手はより上位の宇宙へと移動して攻撃をするのだ。

つまりキリがないのだが、終わりは唐突に訪れた。

トーイチロウの攻撃が、ＵＥＧを含む宇宙を消滅させたのだ。

I uses 宇宙 which means universe

 

[Teezar]

I'm neutral.

 

[YungManzi]

Well for power, it's stated the abyss kings can bypass any defense used by a lower dimensional character.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

I uses 宇宙 which means universe

Yeah it says universe but it doesn't chnage anything tho

 

[Bernkastelll]

iirc, Universes in ID is used to space-times/Timelines anyways, but I will wait Oblivion to a better clarification, as I have almost no scans to ID despite yogiri bypassing immortality shit to mock with people who claim that their characters are imortals

 

[Teezar]

I uses 宇宙 which means universe

Appeared calmly behind Toichirou.

In the first place, since we are here from a completely different world, it is natural for us to move to another universe.

From there, it was a series of further tragedy and tragedy.

In other words, they move between universes, predict the universe in which the other moves, and erase that universe.

It moves out of the multiverse that contains the universe in which the other party is, and attacks that universe from there.

Then, the opponent moves to the higher universe and attacks.

In other words, there is no edge, but the end suddenly came.

Toichirou's attack has wiped out the universe, including UEG.

Google translation and I didn't copy it well

 

[Gohanblanco217]

iirc, Universes in ID is used to space-times/Timelines anyways

Universe = space-time contenum by it's definition anyway

 

[Darksmash]

Yeah it says universe but it doesn't chnage anything tho

Yes but it causes contextual confusion because "higher universe" does not necessarily indicate a transcendent superiority while "higher space time"(Technically even that wouldn't do it but this wiki's standards are built different) implies that.

Well for power, it's stated the abyss kings can bypass any defense used by a lower dimensional character.

That's ignoring the context of the method in which they ignore said defenses

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Yes but it causes contextual confusion because "higher universe" does not necessarily indicate a transcendent superiority while "higher space time"(Technically even that wouldn't do it but this wiki's standards are built different) implies that.

There is no contextual confusion it's literally the same thing

 

[Teezar]

wiki's standards are built different) implies that.

Do you know another wiki apart from this one?