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Instant Death Revisions Part 2

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Bernkastelll said:
Well, the differences of dimensions is also stated to be like a character in a page, but i wont talk too much about it because this is a LN stuff, and despite that I read the web novel, I didnt reached that part in the light novel yet
Click to expand...
I've already argued against that.
 
Darksmash said:
That's ignoring the context of the method in which they ignore said defenses
Click to expand...
Well that argument works for conventional defenses, but there are a lot more than conventional defenses in this world. Heck, the entirety of the Nee-chan wa Chuunibyou cast ,chalked full of plot and fate manipulators, takes place in this same universe.
 
It's not only the Space and time even this is different in the Raw:
Then, one of them moved beyond the bounds of the multiverse
Click to expand...
The raw doesn't say Beyond it just says Outside (外へ).
And why are we equating infinitely (無限に aka ad infinitum) to literal infinite?
 
YungManzi said:
Well that argument works for conventional defenses, but there are a lot more than conventional defenses in this world. Heck, the entirety of the Nee-chan wa Chuunibyou cast ,chalked full of plot and fate manipulators, takes place in this same universe.
Click to expand...
That doesn't matter because it explicitly says that they ignore defenses by destroying their opponents from within, which was elaborated as directly being able to reach their hearts due to the dimensional shenanigans. Based on those scans it had nothing to do with either pure power nor some metaphysical thing
 
I believe Gemstic used space-time continuum due to universe being interchangebly connected to space-time continuum in the context of the verse. In any case, it shouldnt affect the context of the feat in question since universes are space-time continuums in the verse.
Darksmash said:
I am not that knowledgeable on Yogiri but based on the quotes I have seen I disagree with the abyss being transcendent over the lower dimension, given how it's literally used in combat to dodge attacks and ignore durability. If it were literally transcendent you would expect they would just one shot their enemy in the lower dimensions.

Also, correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the abyss stuff from the LN while the UEG stuff from the WN?
Click to expand...
The King is only a human, he doesnt scale to the entire Abyss. He can hop in and control it but he is still a glass cannon at the end of the day, hence him using it to dodge 3-D attacks and such. And naturally, when he is on the Abyss no one can even affect him, much less perceive it.

The LN and WN shares no difference plot-wise. The only difference so far is Yogiri's backstory.
Gohanblanco217 said:
Actually I didn't read the LN version so did Yogiri fight the HRE in LN?
Click to expand...
Yes he did.
Ultima_Reality said:
That, on its own, is not really enough for the higher-dimensional space in question to qualify for a higher tier, for reasons that were already mentioned up there. To quote the FAQ page again:



The "reasons" outlined above, in this case, being that a lower-dimensional entity would always be "flat" in comparision to a higher-dimensional one, regardless of its actual power in relation to them. It's perfectly sensible to conceive of a 2-dimensional object that's more massive than objects in our universe, for instance, but it'd still be infinitely thin even in such a scenario (Similar to an image on a screen indeed), and obviously not fiction or unreality to us, so this comparision isn't necessarily grounds to assume a Reality-Fiction Difference is at play.

Granted, like the OP mentioned before, things like that indeed fall under a case-by-case scenario. And as noted in another part of the FAQ:



So, is there anything suggesting as much in here? I do see some basis to assume this scenario is at play, given that the higher-dimensional planes in question seem to be depicted as whole spacetime continuums that stretch directly above lower-dimensional planes, and how the destruction of those higher universes is stated to be "a chain of even greater tragedies." But explicit evidence of that would be nice.
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Well, the Abyss is stated to embed the entire lower dimensions as well, to the point where the King is able to freely travel through those Lower-D spaces, if that helps.

The higher-universes that exists outside the reaches of the conceptual multiverse would share the same property considering how even the usual conceptual multiverse shares a hierarchy for each higher universe above the lower one and so on. Plus, one being only able to reach said universes if you are higher-dimensional in relation to The Sea. That also makes me ask you, what do you think about UEG's reasoning of transcending the multiverse that is entirely conceptual in nature?
 
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Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
The King is only a human, he doesnt scale to the entire Abyss. He can hop in and control it but he is still a glass cannon at the end of the day, hence him using it to dodge 3-D attacks and such. And naturally, when he is on the Abyss no one can even affect him, much less perceive it.
Click to expand...
Yes but them "ignoring" defenses also doesn't appear to have anything to do with raw power either
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
I believe Gemstic used space-time continuum due to universe being interchangebly connected to space-time continuum in the context of the verse. In any case, it shouldnt affect the context of the feat in question since universes are space-time continuums in the verse.
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Could you explain why space-time continuums are universes in this verse?
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
The regular universes of the verse when referred to have a name, it’s the world/heavenly record. They always refer to that term when referring the home universe where Yogiri and the gang was transported. As soon as Touichirou went to a space beyond the “Sea” (structure that contains the multiverse). UEG called him a higher dimensional being (literally), implying that such a feat of going to a higher space is only possible if one is higher dimensional.
Click to expand...
That's kinda out of context, the Higher dimensional statement was stated before they goes to the higher Universe.
 
@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless , Its obvious that I agree with everything. But I am not sure about the tier 1B stuff. The 1B part needs to be explained and ellaborated.
Pls post the raws too. I agree with 2B, low 1C, possibly 1B.
Infinite amt of time for infinite amt. of universes creation doesnot qualifies for 2A but higher into low 2C.(See Altair's case)
 
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Darksmash said:
That doesn't matter because it explicitly says that they ignore defenses by destroying their opponents from within, which was elaborated as directly being able to reach their hearts due to the dimensional shenanigans. Based on those scans it had nothing to do with either pure power nor some metaphysical thing
Click to expand...
It does matter, because in that same vain, it's stated Abyss Kings are the literal kings of the world and can defeat anyone. And that's stated multiple times that they are more powerful than everyone when using the Abyss (Granted, more powerful can also just mean they have a really good ability or be in relation to physical strength when in the dimension).

But the likelihood that it's also in relation to power is increased when the narration itself says that Abyss Kings can be considered gods compared to the rest of humanity; and in that same statement it also relates their status as gods directly to their "level of power" which indicates a substantial difference in power between these abyss kings and the rest of humanity, not purely a difference in movement. If he was just phasing through people by using the other dimension, that couldn't beat the Causality, Probability, Fate, and Plot people. Assuming the statements of them being the strongest of earth, bar our two main characters, are true.

I have scans of this, but honestly, it's really tedious posting scans in forums, you have to literally jump through hoops.

Edit: It took forever to get, and one of the scans are blurry, but here they are.
McgYu4r.png
V8OlDOm.png
AqiVy2i.png

^^See how it says "Level of power", "Just too different", and the title of "God"? This is the Narration stating this; not another character (Shiraishi) who the Abyss King later implied didn't fully understand his power.

To further help my argument, rather than reaching places in the 3rd dimension by moving through the Abyss (As Darksmash is suggesting is the case), he actually travels by warping space and dragging the destinations he wants to himself. So him traveling is literally him controlling 3-D space. It's the reason why he could rip someone's heart out through the abyss and they'd still be alive, and the reason why he could fuse body parts together.

So, with added context, rather than just a higher dimension which allows for more flexible movement than a normal person; the Abyss is a dimension which grants them great power, can be considered akin to a god's, along with the ability to control 3-D space and view it as a flat plane.
DAQKUpq.png

BTW; this is me arguing that Abyss Kings are indeed physically far stronger than normal people or even other superpowered individuals, and them accessing the Abyss is not just a difference in movement but actual power and ability as well.

Whew~~
 
I believe Gemstic used space-time continuum due to universe being interchangebly connected to space-time continuum in the context of the verse. In any case, it shouldnt affect the context of the feat in question since universes are space-time continuums in the verse.
Click to expand...

First of all, the translation (related to the thing quoted above) was done not for this CRT but for a member that wanted to know what happened in the last chapter of Vol.10. So, there was no need to make any deliberate changes to achieve some desired result. Moreover, UEG and Toichiro were endlessly fighting in places that were greater than a multiverse, so I felt that it was more appropriate as well as less confusing to translate 宇宙 as space-time continuum once they went beyond the multiverse they had arrived at after leaving the "Sea" dimension, instead of literally translating it as 'universe'. (otherwise, the cosmology would look like as follows: universe -> multiverse -> universe)

Secondly, even a 100% legit multiverse (the "Sea" dimension) is called "world" (世界) in the series, so the kanji 宇宙 literally translating to universe doesn't in any way denies the possibility of those universes being higher space-time continuums.
 
The process of equating an infinite set equal to the other is that if they follow bijection/one-to-one correspondence. Though this isn’t always applied in fiction, like how flawed Marvel’s level of infinity as explained by Kubik, by saying that the set of even and odds are lesser than the set of whole numbers. When both of them can have a designated unit for each number of the set. Also how others think that integers(positive and negative whole numbers) are bigger than natural numbers(positive whole numbers) when both sets correspond to each other. A higher infinite set would be the set of real numbers(from irrational, to infinitely many decimals) and the interval from 0-1(others think that the interval between 0-2 is a higher infinity when it has the same cardinality as 0-1).


The continuum hypothesis is literally Cantor trying to figure out if there’s an infinite set in between the set of natural and real numbers. But after his many trials of a hypothetical set in between the two, he thought it was unlikely hence the notion of
{\displaystyle \aleph _{0}<|S|<2^{\aleph _{0}}}
was come up. Since any hypothetical set would be too large for the lesser set and too small for the bigger one.

And the continuum hypothesis is an abstraction, like how almost every other is. Since it’s not dependent on ZFC(Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory of choice) which supports most mathematical equations to the fundamental ones(1+3= 4, and 1+3 ≠ 6), that means the ZFC can’t disprove nor prove the continuum hypothesis. Hence the continuum hypothesis hasn’t been supported yet so the idea that the 2^powerset of Aleph_0 = Aleph 1, is flimsy.

The demonstration I gave was “a countable or uncountable infinite of a 2-dimensional construct(square) regardless of how many they are, and how you arrange them in a 2-dimensional space(forward-backward, east-west). They will never result into a 3-dimensional object since a 3-dimensional object requires depth(x, y axis is crossed by z) something that is nonexistent in a 2-d space.” Cardinality, the numerousness of a set doesn’t magically give them depth/another axis nonexistent in their 2-dimensional space.

Also “P(ℵ0) is ℵ1, P(P(ℵ0) is ℵ2,…” this can be equated to “ℵ1<ℵ2<ℵ3…” which is can be equated to “ℵ0” since every aleph has a one-to-one correspondence with the set of natural numbers. Though since cardinality isn’t exhaustive we have to assume that union set of all aleph numbers(a complete list of all infinite cardinalities) |U| but since we’re following Cantor’s theorem, the powerset must be greater than or equal to the set, so it’d be |P(U)| >= |U| but by doing that, we ran into a contradiction. Somehow the size of the totality of all infinite sizes is greater than itself

You are trying to equate dimensional spaces to alephs which is valid though even though alephs are somewhat counterintuitive the notion from the continuum hypothesis isn’t. And I didn’t make myself clear about the addition of elements, it isn’t the case of simply adding number but it’s an element that is not present in an infinite set therefore it’s uncountable(like the set of 0-1).

 
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Sheesh... so much mathematical mumbo jumbo just to get some top tier yogurt.


Regardless let's wait until Ultima gives their PoV on how the ratings should go.
 
YungManzi said:
If he was just phasing through people by using the other dimension, that couldn't beat the Causality, Probability, Fate, and Plot people. Assuming the statements of them being the strongest of earth, bar our two main characters, are true.
Click to expand...
I fail to see how any of this is irrelevant when the narration explicitly tells us they are bypassing these defenses by destroying the opponents from within

Screenshot_20210722-204406_Drive.jpg


Which is then elaborated as targeting the heart itself. They aren't bypassing said defenses by pure power.

YungManzi said:
To further help my argument, rather than reaching places in the 3rd dimension by moving through the Abyss (As Darksmash is suggesting is the case), he actually travels by warping space and dragging the destinations he wants to himself. So him traveling is literally him controlling 3-D space. It's the reason why he could rip someone's heart out through the abyss and they'd still be alive, and the reason why he could fuse body parts together.
Click to expand...

YungManzi said:
BTW; this is me arguing that Abyss Kings are indeed physically far stronger than normal people or even other superpowered individuals, and them accessing the Abyss is not just a difference in movement but actual power and ability as well.
Click to expand...
Well him warping the space is a good argument, but if he had transcendental raw power why wouldn't he just bypass those defenses directly instead of going to such measures to reach the heart?


Kerwin0831 said:
The continuum hypothesis is literally Cantor trying to figure out if there’s an infinite set in between the set of natural and real numbers. But after his many trials of a hypothetical set in between the two, he thought it was unlikely hence the notion of
{\displaystyle \aleph _{0}|S|2^{\aleph _{0}}}
was come up. Since any hypothetical set would be too large for the lesser set and too small for the bigger one.
Click to expand...
I am confused how these irrelevant ramblings about the continuum hypothesis add anything to your argument

Kerwin0831 said:
The demonstration I gave was “a countable or uncountable infinite of a 2-dimensional construct(square) regardless of how many they are, and how you arrange them in a 2-dimensional space(forward-backward, east-west). They will never result into a 3-dimensional object since a 3-dimensional object requires depth(x, y axis is crossed by z) something that is nonexistent in a 2-d space.” Cardinality, the numerousness of a set doesn’t magically give them depth/another axis nonexistent in their 2-dimensional space.
Click to expand...
And I explained how arranging uncountably infinite squares in a flat plane wouldn't even be a very logical notion. All of this is literally irrelevant because we know 3D is R^3 and a cube will contain uncountably infinite cross sections of a square just arranged in the depth direction.


Kerwin0831 said:
Also “P(ℵ0) is ℵ1, P(P(ℵ0) is ℵ2,…” this can be equated to “ℵ1<ℵ2<ℵ3…” which is can be equated to “ℵ0” since every aleph has a one-to-one correspondence with the set of natural numbers. Though since cardinality isn’t exhaustive we have to assume that union set of all aleph numbers(a complete list of all infinite cardinalities) |U| but since we’re following Cantor’s theorem, the powerset must be greater than or equal to the set, so it’d be |P(U)| >= |U| but by doing that, we ran into a contradiction. Somehow the size of the totality of all infinite sizes is greater than itself
Click to expand...
Literally why did you even say this? How does this relate to your argument? Almost every paragraph you type is completely unrelated to everything else you said.
 
Darksmash said:
I fail to see how any of this is irrelevant when the narration explicitly tells us they are bypassing these defenses by destroying the opponents from within

Well him warping the space is a good argument, but if he had transcendental raw power why wouldn't he just bypass those defenses directly instead of going to such measures to reach the heart?
Click to expand...
My argument was more focused on these statements being related to warping 3-D Space rather than just dodging/attacking through another dimension/angle.

I didn't argue that this by itself was enough for transcendental difference. Keep in mind there's still other arguments than that for tier 1.
Just that reaching the Abyss gave the abyss kings more than just the ability to move in at an extra angle. It actually made them stronger and gives them the ability to warp space from it.

As far as why he would grab Shiraishi's heart... that was used as a fear tactic... Keep in mind; grabbing someone's heart like that was literally just an example of what an Abyss King can do by warping space.

In both Shiraishi's statements and that narration it alludes to that not being the only things they can do. If it was saying they only used this power to do things like crush hearts, that'd be one thing; but it says that they can bypass any defense and destroy an opponent from within. Not "They can bypass any defense by destroying an opponent from within."
XWlbke0.png


^^^That's clearly not what he did to those people.
 
Edit: Shotgun Headcanon
Since reality itself (In the Sea Multiverse) is literally just concepts within a heavenly record and this includes space-time and dimensions; that means all dimensional constructs are mere conceptual constructs within a heavenly record, so anything that exists outside of it (Universes or otherwise) is conceptually superior to the dimension in question. So existing outside of a heavenly record = conceptually superior to 4-D, as it actually exists and is not just a concept, so maybe 5-D? kek.
 
@Darksmash

To be simple, your equation of 2^Aleph null= Aleph 1 stems from a theorem that doesn’t even abide ZFC(one of the mathematical rules that allows 1+1= 2 to be right and 1+1= 4 to be false), how it’s literally unproven to this day, and how mathematicians still speculate to solve the CM hypothesis, yet you’re holding it as if it were affirm ground.

Yes, R^3 is 3D. However, the other part is not my point. I’m saying that however you arrange a countable or uncountable infinite 2-dimensional objects in a 2-dimensional space(this may fill up the entire space), the resulting ensemble can never produce a cube since to do that they would need to cross-section the axis of any square into depth(a direction not possible in a two dimensional plane). I’m not talking about the vector space that contains the ensemble although I made it clear that it’s a 2-dimensional space. If your argument is that it’s too big then a 3-dimensional object is required to contain them, then you have to prove how an uncountable 2-dimensional set would be bigger than the xy axis(something of which is an uncountable set itself when saying that the xy axis contains all real numbers).

I mean you’re the one who brought up power sets to help your argument in your earlier comment, didn’t you? I just made an argument how that won’t work since if you take it as true then the entire ensemble of alephs can be equated to aleph_0 and how when you do this logic further, you’ll hit a problem where the entire complete(not possible but hypothetically) set of all infinite cardinals would be bigger than itself which is a paradox akin to Russel’s paradox slightly changed a bit. So in anyway direction you go with powerset of alephs being greater than or equal to its predecessor, you’ll hit a logical wall one way or the other.
 
Kerwin0831 said:
To be simple, your equation of 2^Aleph null= Aleph 1 stems from a theorem that doesn’t even abide ZFC(one of the mathematical rules that allows 1+1= 2 to be right and 1+1= 4 to be false), how it’s literally unproven to this day, and how mathematicians still speculate to solve the CM hypothesis, yet you’re holding it as if it were affirm ground.
Click to expand...
That's irrelevant because this wiki accepts continuum hypothesis. And even from a neutral perspective assuming the continuum hypothesis isn't completely irrelevant. We are just defaulting the set of reals to be Aleph 1. If we don't accept with then we are merely left with an unknown figure. Sure, it could be aleph 20 or aleph 100 as well, but why would you go for ambiguity if you can default it to the next Infinity after the naturals we know? If you want to argue against it go ahead and mathematically show that there is an infinity between the naturals and the reals.



Kerwin0831 said:
Yes, R^3 is 3D. However, the other part is not my point. I’m saying that however you arrange a countable or uncountable infinite 2-dimensional objects in a 2-dimensional space(this may fill up the entire space), the resulting ensemble can never produce a cube since to do that they would need to cross-section the axis of any square into depth(a direction not possible in a two dimensional plane). I’m not talking about the vector space that contains the ensemble although I made it clear that it’s a 2-dimensional space. If your argument is that it’s too big then a 3-dimensional object is required to contain them, then you have to prove how an uncountable 2-dimensional set would be bigger than the xy axis(something of which is an uncountable set itself when saying that the xy axis contains all real numbers).
Click to expand...
Sure, it can contain rearrangements of uncountable infinity. That's why all points of a 2 dimensional space can be mapped to all points of a 3 dimensional space. How is that even remotely relevant to infinities exceeding the cardinality of the set of reals itself in the first place?

When I said it's too big to fit in I meant uncountably infinite sections of finite 2D structures, not points obviously. And yes it can't fit because R^2 is supposed to represent the entirety of the 2 dimensional plane. Multiplying it in the same plane doesn't really hold any meaning. If you want any meaningful multiplication you would have to stack multiple 2D planes in 3D space

Kerwin0831 said:
I mean you’re the one who brought up power sets to help your argument in your earlier comment, didn’t you?
Click to expand...
I don't recall in what argument I used them, but it wasn't related to any kind of argument that you were making.
Kerwin0831 said:
I just made an argument how that won’t work since if you take it as true then the entire ensemble of alephs can be equated to aleph_0 and how when you do this logic further, you’ll hit a problem where the entire complete(not possible but hypothetically) set of all infinite cardinals would be bigger than itself which is a paradox akin to Russel’s paradox slightly changed a bit. So in anyway direction you go with powerset of alephs being greater than or equal to its predecessor, you’ll hit a logical wall one way or the other.
Click to expand...
If I am understanding this correctly, you are arguing that powersets wouldn't be bigger than the original sets because of Russel's paradox, which hilariously misses the entire point of the paradox lol. The paradox is using a fundamental thing which we know(powersets have bigger cardinalities) to show that the set of all sets has logical problems, not the other way round
 
YungManzi said:
In both Shiraishi's statements and that narration it alludes to that not being the only things they can do. If it was saying they only used this power to do things like crush hearts, that'd be one thing; but it says that they can bypass any defense and destroy an opponent from within. Not "They can bypass any defense by destroying an opponent from within.
Click to expand...
Well that one statement was clearly talking about bypassing defenses by destroying them from within. It would be a bit redundant to mention bypassing defenses by raw power and immediately follow it with "they can also destroy them from within".

But the rest of the stuff would require deeper knowledge on the series, which as I said I don't have. But based on what I have seen I still disagree with these dimensions granting transcendent superiority, aside from the warping space stuff which is also a bit vague
 
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