Instant Death Revisions Part 2

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

(not 1-B, though)

Gonna need more than that.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

"It was a world of different dimensions, in the literal sense of the word. Call it the Astral Realm, the Spirit World, or the Abyss.
It was called by a number of names, but simply put, it was a world whose length, width, and height were complemented by an additional fifth dimension.
The man was able to move freely between that dimension and three-dimensional space. It was an incredibly powerful ability.
By passing through that dimension, he could go anywhere he wanted and avoid any attacks.
As he had shown, he could use it to bypass all sorts of defenses and even destroy his enemies from the inside.
Besides, ordinary humans could not perceive this dimension, making it impossible for them to fight back.
The lower beings appears only as a character on a page. Due to the difference in dimensions."

Isn't there a thread going on to separate geometric higher dimensions and reality-fiction higher planes of existence? If I remember correctly then geometric higher dimension such as this should only account to range, while only reality-fiction higher planes would become tier 1. Before anyone says "The narrative tells us that he "sees lower dimensional beings as only a character on a page" so it must be a reality-fiction difference", I'll address this by saying that this exact line makes it more geometric dimensions than reality-fiction dimensions. (EDIT: I misread the thread, the thread is used for separating hax that affect the different type of higher dimension characters but my point still stands that geometric dimensions wouldn't qualify for tier 1 unless stated to be a reality-fiction difference/infinitely more powerful difference, if you have scans of this then they would become tier 1 but for now they currently wouldn't.)

Why? Because quotes like these are used to show the geometric difference between a 2 dimensional object and a 3 dimensional object, 2 dimensional objects have no width meaning to us we would see them something as a writing on a page, just that the quote here shows a dimensional difference relating to a 5 dimensional character and a 3 dimensional character.

In fact, in the Tiering system FAQ for higher dimensions questions: "When are higher dimensions valid, then"
It states "Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status. An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni. However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case."

Summary: Unless the 5th dimension is stated to be infinitely more than the 4 dimensions or a reality-fiction/author-character difference, then they wouldn't qualify for any tier in tier 1. Seeing a 3 dimensional character as "flat" wouldn't cut it, and the scan above shows nothing stating a infinitely more powerful person nor a reality-fiction difference.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Isn't there a thread going on to separate geometric higher dimensions and reality-fiction higher planes of existence? If I remember correctly then geometric higher dimension such as this should only account to range, while only reality-fiction higher planes would become tier 1. Before anyone says "The narrative tells us that he "sees lower dimensional beings as only a character on a page" so it must be a reality-fiction difference", I'll address this by saying that this exact line makes it more geometric dimensions than reality-fiction dimensions.

I mean, nothing of what you said here is accepted yet from what Im seeing, so

In fact, in the Tiering system FAQ for higher dimensions questions: "When are higher dimensions valid, then"
It states "Furthermore, higher-dimensional entities can also qualify for higher tiers when the verse which they are from explicitly defines them as being infinitely above lower-dimensional ones in power and/or existential status. An example of this being verses such as Umineko no Naku Koro ni. However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case."

Aye, case by case. And in this case, we have additional context in how higher-layers are treated, its not only about the Abyss.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

Aye, case by case. And in this case, we have additional context in how higher-layers are treated, its not only about the Abyss.

If so then great, but the Abyss shouldn't get anything unless there is statements stating it as a reality-fiction difference or a infinitely more powerful difference

 

[AKUTO123]

...You were the one who mentioned 1-C in the first place though.

1-C isnt being proposed, only Low 1-C and 1-B.

I said Wrong. I meant low 1C.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

If so then great, but the Abyss shouldn't get anything unless there is statements stating it as a reality-fiction difference or a infinitely more powerful difference

Well, thats not really up to you to decide at the end of the day, since as things stands now it very much means a R-F difference. Not that it matters much since thats not the only Tier 1 thing here.

 

[Shyouu]

(not 1-B, though)

Do you have reasons against it? Cuz that'll be just arbitrary.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

Well, thats not really up to you to decide at the end of the day, since as things stands now it very much qualifies as R-F difference

However there is nothing that relates to a R-F difference, the only difference I can see is a geometric difference.
"It was called by a number of names, but simply put, it was a world whose length, width, and height were complemented by an additional fifth dimension."
Nothing in this sentence calls out a reality-fiction difference nor a higher infinitely

"The man was able to move freely between that dimension and three-dimensional space. It was an incredibly powerful ability.
By passing through that dimension, he could go anywhere he wanted and avoid any attacks.
As he had shown, he could use it to bypass all sorts of defenses and even destroy his enemies from the inside.
Besides, ordinary humans could not perceive this dimension, making it impossible for them to fight back.
The lower beings appears only as a character on a page. Due to the difference in dimensions."
Unless I'm missing something, these statements further proves a geometric dimensional difference, and the last line even helps prove my point as this is showing that the 5 dimensional character would see a 3 dimensional character as a "flat" person, which doesn't qualify as an infinitely more powerful difference nor a R-F difference in the tiering FAQ, just as how a 3 dimensional character would see a 2 dimensional object

 

[Shyouu]

I'll address this by saying that this exact line makes it more geometric dimensions than reality-fiction dimensions

How is it a geometric dimensional difference, when it outright says that it's akin to a fictional character in a book to a higher dimensional being above it?

a geometric difference would something like: "A 4D can't possibly affect a 5D" or somewhere there.

 

[Shyouu]

Unless I'm missing something, these statements further proves a geometric dimensional difference, and the last line even helps prove my point as this is showing that the 5 dimensional character would see a 3 dimensional character as a "flat" person, which doesn't qualify as an infinitely more powerful difference nor a R-F difference in the tiering FAQ, just as how a 3 dimensional character would see a 2 dimensional object

Define Reality to fiction difference here. Since despite having an outright definition statement of it, you're saying it isn't.

 

[Shyouu]

However there is nothing that relates to a R-F difference, the only difference I can see is a geometric difference.

Bruh. There is, are we reading the same stuff?

Besides, ordinary humans could not perceive this dimension, making it impossible for them to fight back.
The lower beings appears only as a character on a page. Due to the difference in dimensions."

This very quote is literally an R>F difference.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

How is it a geometric dimensional difference, when it outright says that it's akin to a fictional character in a book to a higher dimensional being above it?

a geometric difference would something like: "A 4D can't possibly affect a 5D" or somewhere there.

please state where it says "fictional character in a book to a higher dimensional being", I can only see "The lower beings appears only as a character on a page. Due to the difference in dimensions." which is common when showing geometric difference. The statement doesn't say "the higher dimensional character sees the lower as a fictional character and can do whatever" only that they see the people as a flat character(characters such as "a" or these characters I'm typing on my flat screen), which doesn't qualify for R-F difference nor a infinitely difference, only a geometric difference such as a 3d person seeing a 2d object flat because a 2d object doesn't have width

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Idk about you, but when Im reading a superman comic the characters on the page are very much fictional to me. Same case here

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

Idk about you, but when Im reading a superman comic the characters on the page are very much fictional to me. Same case here

yes they are fictional because they aren't real, such is the reason "fiction". Not that they can be a 2 dimensional concept to you

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Ra (Lessa) is Low 1-C due to him perceiving characters as drawings in a book page.

Same case here.

 

[Muhsula]

I am agree with Low 1C of course (since i am the one propose it). But i am kinda neutral with 1-B considering in my opinion it's still kinda lack in context.

Also since when it have to be blatanly said about infinitely more powerfull to be accepted? As far as i remember see character in fiction is enough to get higher tier. Which in this context is 5D and fit at least low 1C. (If that was the case i can't imagine how many series will get downgrade).

Also can someone get Ultima to decide once for all? Ultima seems the one who made valid point about tier after all. Though that he probably only agree with Low 1C.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

Ra (Lessa) is Low 1-C due to him perceiving characters as drawings in a book page.

Same case here.

big difference is that they are "fictional" to him, as in not real
Here is a geometric difference, not a fictional difference

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Also can someone get Ultima to decide once for all?

Yung asked for his input

 

[deonment]

big difference is that they are "fictional" to him, as in not real
Here is a geometric difference, not a fictional difference

how in the hell, they see lower-dimensional people as characters on a page, like a drawing something that does qualify for r/f

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

big difference is that they are "fictional" to him, as in not real
Here is a geometric difference, not a fictional difference

Ra is perceiving characters as drawing in a page.

Abyss King is perceiving humans as drawings in a page.

Nothing different here.

 

[Shyouu]

please state where it says "fictional character in a book to a higher dimensional being"

I don't know if you have bad interpretation problems but

The lower beings appears only as a character on a page. Due to the difference in dimensions.

A character in a page i.e a 2 dimensional drawing/character wouldn't be able to perceive a being in a higher dimension than it; a 3 Dimensional being is a reality fiction difference. This is further supported in this particular quote

Besides, ordinary humans could not perceive this dimension, making it impossible for them to fight back.

which is common when showing geometric difference.

This is not a common showing in geometric difference, can you prove that it is? Cuz a geometric difference would be something like aizen's statement.

The statement doesn't say "the higher dimensional character sees the lower as a fictional character and can do whatever" only that they see the people as a flat character

It's an implication, it says that they are higher dimensional

Besides, ordinary humans could not perceive this dimension

The lower beings appears only as a character on a page. Due to the difference in dimensions.

Now tell me how does this not indicate that they exist in a higher dimension than a page i.e fiction.

(characters such as "a" or these characters I'm typing on my flat screen), which doesn't qualify for R-F difference nor a infinitely difference, only a geometric difference such as a 3d person seeing a 2d object flat because a 2d object doesn't have width

Give me the definition of Reality fiction difference. Like seeing something as fiction is a reality-fiction difference, but according to you it isn't.

 

[Bernkastelll]

At this point, Low 1-C is just blatant and the "counters" arent even that good

 

[Shyouu]

big difference is that they are "fictional" to him, as in not real
Here is a geometric difference, not a fictional difference

I'm gonna ask you this question to clear things up; What is fiction? Like let's say a drawing in a book is presented, would that be fiction to you?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Apparently, Ra's feat is considered R-F difference purely BECAUSE he sees the stuff as drawings as explained on his page, so you are actually helping my argument.

 

[Zencha9]

why are you even bothering ? it's accepted that these types of relationships and how they are described qualfies for Reality to fiction difference

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

how in the hell, they see lower-dimensional people as characters on a page, like a drawing something that does qualify for r/f

Okay so here we go. I don't know much about Ra, but seeing the scans I would qualify him as a tier 1 character, why him and not the Abyss? It is because of the fact that he literally sees the universe and everything as not real to him, the character from the Abyss doesn't and only sees them as like a dot/character in a flat plane just as we 3d people see 2d objects, just that they are still real to us. Geometric dimensions in the real world are separated by dimensions, meaning that we can't touch/interact with them because we aren't in the same dimension as them.
In Instant death, although they are separated by dimensional differences, because it is fiction, they can still interact with each other. The only reason I'm typing is to show a difference between reality-fiction and geometric dimensions, a R-F fiction would see everything below him as fictional and not existing to him, a geometric difference appears the same but unless given more info wouldn't be the same as a geometric difference isn't a infinite difference.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

I'm gonna ask you this question to clear things up; What is fiction? Like let's say a drawing in a book is presented, would that be fiction to you?

the characters/world/concept of the drawing would be fictional to me as they don't exist in our world, but the book and everything else is real, such as the characters/lines that make up the story/drawing.

 

[Dragopentling]

Gonna need more than that.

nah, there's not enough to speak for 1-B, but maybe High 1-C can be applicable?
Anyways, I'm agreeing for Tier 1 upgrade in general.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

It is because of the fact that he literally sees the universe and everything as not real to him

He sees them as drawings, which is where the R-F difference comes from

In Instant death, although they are separated by dimensional differences, because it is fiction, they can still interact with each other. The only reason I'm typing is to show a difference between reality-fiction and geometric dimensions, a R-F fiction would see everything below him as fictional and not existing to him

I mean, thats blatantly not how things works here. We assume the Tier 1 being can affect Lower-D dudes by default, so its not an anti-feat for R-F difference

 

[Shyouu]

the characters/world/concept of the drawing would be fictional to me as they don't exist in our world, but the book and everything else is real, such as the characters/lines that make up the story/drawing.

Now tell me, How is seeing someone in a page as fiction; a 2 dimensional character drawing to a being outside it, existing in a dimension higher to point they are nothing but a fictional page in a book is not reality fiction difference.

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

I'm gonna ask you this question to clear things up; What is fiction? Like let's say a drawing in a book is presented, would that be fiction to you?

How about this, if you were put inside the world of Superman, would you say that you can beat superman in a fist fight?

He sees them as drawings, which is where the R-F difference comes from

He sees everything as fiction, the concept/world as a fictional thing.
Seeing something as characters of a page that makes up a story(geometric difference) =/= seeing the world of the story as fiction(R-F difference)

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

Now tell me, How is seeing someone in a page as fiction; a 2 dimensional character drawing to a being outside it, existing in a dimension higher to point they are nothing but a fictional page in a book is not reality fiction difference.

because I see the world/story as fiction, a story, while I see the characters that make up the words as non-fiction

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

He sees everything as fiction, the concept/world as a fictional thing.

Yes, because they are drawings from his perspective

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

I think people are confusing meaning of the word "character", it has two definitions
character can mean a being in a fictional world, or you know the characters that make up words and sentences

 

[Shyouu]

the character from the Abyss doesn't and only sees them as like a dot/character in a flat plane just as we 3d people see 2d objects, just that they are still real to us.

Are you saying a drawing character in a page like a manga character isn't fiction?

 

[Bernkastelll]

How about this, if you were put inside the world of Superman, would you say that you can beat superman in a fist fight?

Obviously, I can literally draw Superman dying and he cannot defend against it, as I am a higher dimensional being to him, he is powerless against me

 

[Delta333]

the character from the Abyss doesn't and only sees them as like a dot/character in a flat plane just as we 3d people see 2d objects, just that they are still real to us.

Now I can meet my waifu in real life

 

[DebatingIsMyGoal]

Obviously, I can literally draw Superman dying and he cannot defend against it, as I am a higher dimensional being to him, he is powerless against me

yes you can because the concept of superman is fictional to you in the real/non-fictional world, but if you were put into the WORLD of Superman, then do you think you can fist fight him and win?

 

[Bernkastelll]

but if you were put into the WORLD of Superman, then do you think you can fist fight him and win?

Why does this even matter if ID case is a reality-fiction case?

 

[Shyouu]

How about this, if you were put inside the world of Superman, would you say that you can beat superman in a fist fight?

How the **** is that relevant at all? Like that doesn't correlate to anything I just said.

because I see the world/story as fiction, a story, while I see the characters that make up the words as non-fiction

What? What words? Define non-fiction here.

character can mean a being in a fictional world, or you know the characters that make up words and sentences

What the ****. Why are you making a big assumption than it is? why would characters (assuming you're referring to JP characters) be referring here? Can you prove that it's characters make up words and sentences rather than the characters in page?