The endless war against Yogiri's fans. (Debunking Yogiri and Instant death characters)

[PhantomØ4]

I don’t care about scaling enough anymore to throw myself into being dogpiled by a duo after also everyone else already voting before a counter argument could be made (which tbf doesn’t seem like it will happen). But— the literary comprehension is strong with you ESL lot as just skimming this I noticed you cannot piece together information that is given at different points (such as Fate working at a meta narrative level). Apparently a couple volumes of characters based around such power-set was not enough to figure that much out. Alas, peace.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Overall, it has been a long time since I've read something "as bad". Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I got more enjoyment reading this than ID.

Wtf? All I got from that is immortality

 

[SweetDao]

I don’t care about scaling enough anymore to throw myself into being dogpiled

I don't want needless "fights". But, yeah, I think that's something we can agree on. Be it for the opponent side or the home side, it's not funny to get piled by people. If you wish to put some thought on the threads and/or in private with me, I wouldn't mind. You seem like a good guy, so I feel like it's a waste to not talk with you or hear your opinion. Although, no obligation here.

 

[Nexus_still_slams]

I don’t care about scaling enough anymore to throw myself into being dogpiled by a duo after also everyone else already voting before a counter argument could be made (which tbf doesn’t seem like it will happen). But— the literary comprehension is strong with you ESL lot as just skimming this I noticed you cannot piece together information that is given at different points (such as Fate working at a meta narrative level). Apparently a couple volumes of characters based around such power-set was not enough to figure that much out. Alas, peace.

I mean, we just talk about the proof given on the pages, feel free to adding some stuffs for better comprehension of the abilities

 

[PhantomØ4]

I kinda let go of the series in this wiki after it reached Tier 1. It would also be dumb for me with not motivation to force myself to debate it again against people who have full motivation to burn time into it— it will get fixed eventually by someone else after you lose motivation to be on here spamming downgrades unopposed. It’s how the site works so don’t worry, not even mad.

 

[SweetDao]

I kinda let go of the series in this wiki after it reached Tier 1. It would also be dumb for me with not motivation to force myself to debate it again against people who have full motivation to burn time into it— it will get fixed eventually by someone else after you lose motivation to be on here spamming downgrades unopposed. It’s how the site works so don’t worry, not even mad.

It's your wish and I respect that. In any case, if you wish to discuss stuff privately, I'll not mind at all.

 

[BoastJr]

How bad are the novels? Isekai at peace/Wild last boss levels of bad?
I know the manga and anime are good.

1) This is not relevent to the discussion
2) The IAP Manga is rated at 8.61/10 and Awlba Manga is rated at 8.40/10 on Manga dex
3) You do realise you need to actually read the story to enjoy it right ? right ??

Snip

Vernal was written as a character with a set goal in mind. She has motivations in creating and experimenting with the six kings who serves to create the foundation for her emotions (Each of them were created with a "Flaw"). She has created another self who is not bound by her shackles (who lives as a demon free from the burden of a God) in an attempt to better understand herself. There is a goal in mind with her clearly that is abit more nuanced then what you have described.

Anyways I just wanted to highlight this, carry on with your discussion

 

[SweetDao]

Based

 

[Deidalius]

1) This is not relevent to the discussion
2) The IAP Manga is rated at 8.61/10 and Awlba Manga is rated at 8.40/10 on Manga dex
3) You do realise you need to actually read the story to enjoy it right ? right ??

Not gonna read something if I have a bad impression. The glimses I've seen from both of those novels is that some parts are written like powerscaling fanfics which is a turn off. ID novels too (Which is why the manga and anime are superior) so I merely compared them to ID.

Also, while not definite, I am not going to read something that seems like slop just to give my opinion on it. I have limited time and I prefer to waste that time on other things. Rather than prove to someone that I read or didn't read something just so they can accept my opinion.

Vernal was written as a character with a set goal in mind. She has motivations in creating and experimenting with the six kings who serves to create the foundation for her emotions (Each of them were created with a "Flaw"). She has created another self who is not bound by her shackles (who lives as a demon free from the burden of a God) in an attempt to better understand herself. There is a goal in mind with her clearly that is abit more nuanced then what you have described.

Anyways I just wanted to highlight this, carry on with your discussion

Fair enough, your waifu might be a good well developed character and yari yara though I won't accept people insulting characters I like just to put her higher than them and praise her

 

[Eseseso]

Looks good

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Need more trinity seven fans all you read Trinity seven manga you will enjoy it 100%
99% waifus

...How about not trying to advertise it in a discussion where it's irrelevant? Saying that as a fan myself.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

UEG:

The panels where UEG is erased are this one and these ones. First, it was said nowhere that her soul, mind, and concept were erased. The divine core is not said to be a concept . The only justification used is the fact that Rick's sword can attack conceptually, but that doesn't mean that he conceptually attacked UEG or that the divine core is conceptual (Anyway it was remove in another threads). Contrary to that, we are only told that the body of UEG has been erased and not anything else.

The justification for the NEP is that she can exist after the destruction of her body, soul, mind, and concept before regenerating herself over time.
Nothing like that is said here. He just said that UEG should have been erased, which she confirmed by saying that she WAS erased, but not that she was currently erased. There is no mention that she was still in a non-existence state when she spoke. It was even said that she was standing behind him, which shouldn't be possible if she doesn't exist. And again, it is said nowhere that the attack of Touichirou erased her at another level than just the physical level.

There's also this chapter, where a godess is dead and going to the bottom of a sea of darkness (which should prove the nep), first, being able to exist in a non-existent place do not qualify for a nep because you are still existent. It is stated nowhere that it a real non-existent place, and directions are mentionned in the place which is contradictory to a non-existent void (the concept of direction should not apply here)

And while she is in this state, she cannot do anything, like see or interact with the world, she's just here, waiting for her resurection.

To continue, when UEG was in the void, she said that a concept like "nothing" cannot exist, was horrified of this non-existent place and could not do anything about it (weird if she's herself non-existent) and she should have a nep 1 all aspects ? And the simple fact that she "died" after being absorbed by the darkness shows that she has no NEP, since the very principle of this void is the fact that nothing can exist in it, and UEG was no exception to this rule, if she could remain non-existent the void would have done nothing to her.

Agree, the Nonexistent part seems simpIe enough

Why is that a Mid-Godly resurrection?? The only thing said is that even if you erased gods, they will reappear, but since when is "erased" assumed to be at a physical and soul level? The only thing this panel qualifies for is a Low-Godly resurrection unless there's more scans related to this.

Literally the same thing, the same panel is used for this regeneration, with a panel that says things like causality erasure and complete erasure are common things in the sea (We don't even know the meaning of causality and complete erasure, it is literally impossible to use), but it doesn't say that the gods can regenerate from such erasure, it is just an assumption that if "anyone" can do this then the gods can regenerate from such erasure, plus, standards for mid-godly regeneration are the erasure of body, mind, and soul, which is not demonstrated in the panels (no, "complete erasure" does not necessarily mean an erasure of these aspects).

NeutraI on this, but Ieaning to agree. My onIy reason for neutraIity in this case is because CausaIity is often co-reIated with history, so that might be meant here, Iike erasing past, present and future, that kind of thing.
But then again, a simpIe name wouIdnt be enough to denote that by itseIf, so again, neutraI, unIess a supporter can bring scans on what the term means in-verse

Could someone just put a type to this conceptual manipulation?

Given the fact that the scan Iacks any other context, I think Type 3 wouId be fine here, imo.

Yukimasa:
In my opinion that's not a plot manipulation, the only thing that tends to show it is a simple analogy between the fact that he can change the future thanks to his book and an author. The only thing he can do with his power is to modify the future at a low degree and without contradiction with past events. this power has no effects like a plot manipulation but is just a fate manipulation and a text manipulation with an analogy. he should show that he can manipulate the aspect of plot, which affect the future, and not altering the Future directly.

(Yukimasa's power → Manifest in a book → Yukimasa can write in this book which affect plot → modify future [valid plot manip])
(Yukimasa's power → Manifest in a book → Yukimasa can write in this book → modify future [not valid plot manip because he only affect the future and not plot])

Agree, this seems more Iike Fate ManipuIation, unIess there is more context

This is not a resistance : the whole point of Yogiri's character in Instant Death is to win every time, being the strongest, without limit etc. And if we look closely at the panel of "Resistance", it was just that for every possibility he could write, Yukimasa end up dead, this is just the same case as Aoi, for every possibility, Yogiri win, that's why the book turned against him. and not because Yogiri can resist to his power. Every possibility lead to Yogiri's win.

Agreed, some forms of fate manip do have Iimitations, Iike being not abIe to do something impossibIe or something that has a 0 percent chance of happening, I think this wouId just faII under exactIy that

 

[SweetDao]

NeutraI on this, but Ieaning to agree. My onIy reason for neutraIity in this case is because CausaIity is often co-reIated with history, so that might be meant here, Iike erasing past, present and future, that kind of thing.
But then again, a simpIe name wouIdnt be enough to denote that by itseIf, so again, neutraI, unIess a supporter can bring scans on what the term means in-verse

I'm quite certain the "causality" erasure here is quite different from what you're explaining since Mitsuki, who did exactly what you said, never mentioned "causality" as a part of his attack. Everything is straightforward in the verse. Causality erasure would just mean erasing a cause or an effect (an action of yours or someone else).

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

I'm quite certain the "causality" erasure here is quite different from what you're explaining since Mitsuki, who did exactly what you said, never mentioned "causality" as a part of his attack. Everything is straightforward in the verse. Causality erasure would just mean erasing a cause or an effect (an action of yours or someone else).

A verse doesnt aIways namesdrop attacks every singIe time, and the fact that such an erasure that erases history actuaIIy exists in-verse might even act as supporting evidence.

Tho, your point is not compIeteIy invaIid either.

 

[SweetDao]

A verse doesnt aIways namesdrop attacks every singIe time, and the fact that such an erasure that erases history actuaIIy exists in-verse might even act as supporting evidence.

In this case, yes, they always tend to name-drop things, even multiple times throughout the novel.

The "Erasure" used for "Causality Erasure" is entirely different from the "Erasure" of "Total Erasure". Total Erasure refer to total annihilation, while the other refer to the act of "erasing causality". The Erasure Bolt of Mitsuki is fundamentally different from both of those abilities.

 

[VoidGoji]

A Comment on the rating: its almost like ultra power fantasies will attract people that will inflate the ratings, right?

Anyways, agree on everything except removal of plot/fate stuff. That seems pretty straight foward

 

[YungManzi]

I’ll admit I’m out of the powerscaling loop these days and my ID knowledge is rusty. But…

I feel like most of your arguments rely on using the fact that the source material is a book to be as uncharitable as possible and knit-pick on certain details while disregarding others.

Like with the NEP thing. Your own two arguments against it support each other when taken outside of a vacuum.

1) UEG is stated to have been erased, and not yet stated to resurrect or regen at that time. There’s nothing about standing, talking, or being somewhere that contradicts NEP; because it could be their image or other existent aspect of someone that is there but just not the nonexistent aspect.

The fact that when gods die they are shown to go to a nonexistent place pretty solidly supports UEG being nonexistent as well, and just them being there doesn’t mean they exist.


The concept and godly stuff also has more to do with the nature of heavenly records/celestial foundations that are the conceptual vessel of the world, and gods can manipulate and destroy them but UEG’s concept cannot just be easily destroyed by any random god.

I’ve heard ID has been getting a lot of hate recently but oh boy.

 

[SweetDao]

The concept and godly stuff also has more to do with the nature of heavenly records/celestial foundations that are the conceptual vessel of the world, and gods can manipulate and destroy them but UEG’s concept cannot just be easily destroyed by any random god.

I can't really do a big answer since I'll start work in a bit, but the last bit can easily be explained by the V-Road and higher level of omnipotence. Since a "lower-level God wouldn't be able to beat a higher-level God", this is not UEG concept being better or anything, just her having better potency.

 

[YungManzi]

I can't really do a big answer since I'll start work in a bit, but the last bit can easily be explained by the V-Road and higher level of omnipotence. Since a "lower-level God wouldn't be able to beat a higher-level God", this is not UEG concept being better or anything, just her having better potency.

If mid level gods can destroy type 1 concepts but not UEG, why would someone who specifically has concept manipulation meant to take out higher level gods than them not have type 1?

Even if you can technically argue that, you’d agree it makes no narrative sense, and therefore Occam’s razor dictates we use the explanation that makes the most sense.


Which is that it’s type 1.

Edit: unless we argue Rick’s type 3 is is better than normal type 1 or something.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

So you are arguing that it is the complete erasure of everything including concept, soul, and mind, while we only have confirmation of her body ceasing?

 

[FaZe_Liam]

Agree w/ all

 

[YungManzi]

So you are arguing that it is the complete erasure of everything including concept, soul, and mind, while we only have confirmation of her body ceasing?

Yes. Because she was hit by what is more than likely (Narratively and logically) a type 1 conceptual erasure attack.

Edit: Even if you argue Rick has type 3 because it’s unexplained his type 3 >>> normal god’s type 1 so godly stuff should still apply.

This was the whole argument for High Godly in the first place, concept scaling based on who has superior conceptual manipulation narratively speaking.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Yes. Because she was hit by what is more than likely (Narratively and logically) a type 1 conceptual erasure attack.

Edit: Even if you argue Rick has type 3 because it’s unexplained his type 3 >>> normal god’s type 1 so godly stuff should still apply.

This was the whole argument for High Godly in the first place, concept scaling based on who has superior conceptual manipulation narratively speaking.

... You really havn't been active wwithin the verse here, have you? His CM has long since been debunked.

 

[YungManzi]

... You really havn't been active wwithin the verse here, have you? His CM has long since been debunked.

Who’s?

Rick’s or Celestial foundations?

You can’t really debunk CM before you tackle those.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Who’s?

Rick’s or Celestial foundations?

You can’t really debunk CM before you tackle those.

Ricks.

 

[YungManzi]

Ricks.

How exactly was it debunked while CFs/HR still are type 1?

That makes no sense.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

How exactly was it debunked while CFs/HR still are type 1?

That makes no sense.

Just look at the thread, where it was debunked in.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

In this case, yes, they always tend to name-drop things, even multiple times throughout the novel.

AIright, since Im not a reader of the noveI myseIf, I wiII take you up on that

The "Erasure" used for "Causality Erasure" is entirely different from the "Erasure" of "Total Erasure". Total Erasure refer to total annihilation, while the other refer to the act of "erasing causality". The Erasure Bolt of Mitsuki is fundamentally different from both of those abilities.

Ah, if what Mizuki did is named a different thing then its fine, count me as agree with the removaI for MGR as weII

 

[Nexus_still_slams]

1) UEG is stated to have been erased, and not yet stated to resurrect or regen at that time.

Like i explained in the OP, UEG stated that she was erased, (not present but past).

There’s nothing about standing, talking, or being somewhere that contradicts NEP; because it could be their image or other existent aspect of someone that is there but just not the nonexistent aspect.

"it could be" only assumptions without any proof, i'm sorry but it's not enough for the few feats provided, the fact that she has a location proof that she was not non-existent, saying that it is "maybe" only an aspect of her is just theoritical.

The fact that when gods die they are shown to go to a nonexistent place pretty solidly supports UEG being nonexistent as well, and just them being there doesn’t mean they exist.

Being in a non-existent place does not mean you are yourself non-existent, also, this place has never been said to be non-existent, and the fact that it contains a concept of directions proves that it is not. And UEG saying that something like "nothingess" cannot exist is just the biggest anti-feat.

The concept and godly stuff also has more to do with the nature of heavenly records/celestial foundations that are the conceptual vessel of the world, and gods can manipulate and destroy them but UEG’s concept cannot just be easily destroyed by any random god.

what I mean is that UEG has never demonstrated better than to regenerate its physical body.

 

[YungManzi]

Like i explained in the OP, UEG stated that she was erased, (not present but past).

This is semantics, not really an argument.

She can still be erased and at the same time had been erased in the past.

For example: “I was shot!” I can say this while still having a bullet in my body.

"it could be" only assumptions without any proof, i'm sorry but it's not enough for the few feats provided, the fact that she has a location proof that she was not non-existent, saying that it is "maybe" only an aspect of her is just theoritical.

My argument wasn’t about what could be, but what’s more likely and what takes more assumptions. Your interpretation takes more leaps in logic than mine.

Nothing about being in a location makes you not non-existent; unless you’re ready to tell me every single character with NEP on their page has never been in a location before.

Being in a non-existent place does not mean you are yourself non-existent, also, this place has never been said to be non-existent, and the fact that it contains a concept of directions proves that it is not. And UEG saying that something like "nothingess" cannot exist is just the biggest anti-feat.

I’ll have to read back up on that chapter, I was going off of your own argument and you conceding it was non-existent, now you’re saying it’s not.

If you really think it’s such an anti-feat then you should be arguing that she wasn’t even erased physically. If nothingness can’t exist then you can’t physically reduce anything to nothing and therefore there’s no godly anything, not even low.

State your true position.

 

[SweetDao]

If you really think it’s such an anti-feat

It is such an antifeat. UEG was merely annihilated physically.

Before, people could shrug it off as "UEG is inside Yogiri's true form which is a better NEP" but since it isn't the case, there is no saving for her.

Btw, Malna was killed physically by destroying her Divine Core, twice, her consciousness still remained nonetheless, hence why she'll be able to resuscitate later on.

 

[Nexus_still_slams]

This is semantics, not really an argument.

She can still be erased and at the same time had been erased in the past.

For example: “I was shot!” I can say this while still having a bullet in my body.

Yes, but in that case she was not for the rason already explained above.

My argument wasn’t about what could be, but what’s more likely and what takes more assumptions. Your interpretation takes more leaps in logic than mine.

Nothing about being in a location makes you not non-existent; unless you’re ready to tell me every single character with NEP on their page has never been in a location before.

Not sure that having a nep when only being destroy physically and having a location why being suposely being non-existent is a better assumptions. If you are non-existent you cannot being in a location it's pure logic.

I’ll have to read back up on that chapter, I was going off of your own argument and you conceding it was non-existent, now you’re saying it’s not.

never conceding it was non-existent

If you really think it’s such an anti-feat then you should be arguing that she wasn’t even erased physically. If nothingness can’t exist then you can’t physically reduce anything to nothing and therefore there’s no godly anything, not even low.

you're just dishonest, she was talking about the existence of a concept like true nothingess, there's a difference between the concept of nothingess like the void in which UEG was absorbed (not conceptual but a true nothingess) and something like a new color for exemple (that does not exist). And yes it is a huge Anti-Feat, how could UEG be non-existent if she think such a concept does not exist ?

 

[YungManzi]

It is such an antifeat. UEG was merely annihilated physically.

Before, people could shrug it off as "UEG is inside Yogiri's true form which is a better NEP" but since it isn't the case, there is no saving for her.

Btw, Malna was killed physically by destroying her Divine Core, twice, her consciousness still remained nonetheless, hence why she'll be able to resuscitate later on.

My point was that you can’t use that one statement to say there is no erasure while simultaneously accepting that erasure happened physically.

you're just dishonest, she was talking about the existence of a concept like true nothingess, there's a difference between the concept of nothingess like the void in which UEG was absorbed (not conceptual but a true nothingess) and something like a new color for exemple (that does not exist). And yes it is a huge Anti-Feat, how could UEG be non-existent if she think such a concept does not exist ?

Where exactly was this distinction made in the text?

 

[SweetDao]

My point was that you can’t use that one statement to say there is no erasure while simultaneously accepting that erasure happened physically.

UEG was annihilated physically (like the universe she was in) by Touichirou. She came back and appeared behind him, scaring Touichirou because "she should've been erased".

In ID, a higher power means you can more or less bypass the opponent powers to some extent. It also means that if a being stronger than UEG were to fight her, destroying her core would be enough to make her disappear/ to "kill her"/to send her to the sea of darkness, awaiting resurrection.

 

[Van_Npc]

Agree

 

[RM97]

Seems fine imo.

 

[Robo432343]

agree

 

[Deleted member 11410]

Agree

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[SweetDao]

bump