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"Infinite" according to DC Comics....

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Elizio33

Elizio33

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Okay, the title might sound a little confusing and a lot of you might disagree with that, but my main issue with the term infinite in DC Comics is that it's often used in a contradictory way, let me explain to you. Infinite is a term used to describe something having no limits or boundaries in time or space or extent or magnitude. Finite means something having an end or a boundary, opposite to infinite. In DC Comics, context is very important and could determine whether or not the term "infinite" used is hyperbole. Here're some examples:
  • A universe in DC is often used to be infinite, but this is contradicted by multiple stories of entities and objects traveling "from the edge of the universe" or "across the entire universe" or "from every corner of the universe" not to mention the Source Wall which is the limit of the universe, which should not be possible unless the universe is finite in size.
  • The set number of the universes in DC during the Pre-Crisis era was often used to be infinite, but this is contradicted by the simple fact that when the Anti-Monitor destroyed these universes, the infinite universes collapsed into five universes, which should not be possible unless the multiverse has finite set number of universes.
  • Hypertime is used to contain infinite possibilities, but this is contradicted by multiple stories of entities destroying the possibilities of Hypertime almost in its entirety which should not be possible unless Hypertime contains a finite set number of possibilities.
It is quite obvious that the term infinite according to the given contexts here are hyperbolic statements to describe something immeasurable but having an end or a boundary. Infinity is a concept not a number and cannot be divided as such, not like a normal number. This begs the question of whether DC characters that have created or destroyed an infinite number of universes or timelines or an infinite-sized universe should still be 2-A but rather high-end 2-B instead.

Here are some characters I had in mind, let me know if there are more.

Anti-Monitor
Darkseid
Superman (Pre-Crisis)
Supergirl (Pre-Crisis)
Barbatos
The World Forger
The Monitor
The Ultra-Monitor
Perpetua
Brainiac (Post-Crisis)
Parallax
Superboy-Prime
Time Trapper
Sodam Yat
Flash (Post-Flashpoint)
Flash (Wally West) (Rebirth)

Every character who scale to characters who can create or destroy an infinite number of universes or timelines or an infinite-sized universe should be "At least 2-B" or "At least 2-B, possibly 2-A" instead but they shouldn't have a straight 2-A Tier.
 
disagree heavily

A universe in DC is often used to be infinite, but this is contradicted by multiple stories of entities and objects traveling "from the edge of the universe" or "across the entire universe" or "from every corner of the universe" not to mention the Source Wall which is the limit of the universe, which should not be possible unless the universe is finite in size.

last i recall, we accept infinite universes to have edges and corners, though this seems to have be contentious and i'm not sure about it, also "across the entire universe" doesn't contradict it cuz characters can cross and affect infinite distance, is why "high universal" and "infinite speed" a thing, also, seeing as characters in DC with universe crossing feats aren't infinite in speed, pretty sure we don't even accept the universes as infinite to begin with

The set number of the universes in DC during the Pre-Crisis era was often used to be infinite, but this is contradicted by the simple fact that when the Anti-Monitor destroyed these universes, the infinite universes collapsed into five universes, which should not be possible unless the multiverse has finite set number of universes.

Hypertime is used to contain infinite possibilities, but this is contradicted by multiple stories of entities destroying the possibilities of Hypertime almost in its entirety which should not be possible unless Hypertime contains a finite set number of possibilities.

you do realize that this is essentially saying high 3-A, 2-A, high 1-B and 1-A+ shouldn't be a thing, as that involves the creation, affecting and destruction of infinite things?

no, infinite can be created, affected and destroyed, it is something very common in fiction, it does not mean that they are finite, it means characters have infinite power in those areas
 
I agree with LastMLG, also I should note that:
Elizio33 said:
The set number of the universes in DC during the Pre-Crisis era was often used to be infinite, but this is contradicted by the simple fact that when the Anti-Monitor destroyed these universes, the infinite universes collapsed into five universes, which should not be possible unless the multiverse has finite set number of universes.
Click to expand...
Infinite minus 5 is still Infinite so Idk what you're tryna get here. Adding to that the Anti-Monitor destroying the Infinite Multiverse is literally the plot point of the event, even written in its very name.
 
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Disagree. As already said the wiki accepts that something infinite can have an edge, and being able to destroy or affect something infinite doesn’t invalidate whether it’s infinite or not. I don’t know who told you this but that reason can be used to downgrade literally every high 3-A and above character on this site.

The characters you listed can remain at their tiers.
 
Elizio33 said:
  • A universe in DC is often used to be infinite, but this is contradicted by multiple stories of entities and objects traveling "from the edge of the universe" or "across the entire universe" or "from every corner of the universe" not to mention the Source Wall which is the limit of the universe, which should not be possible unless the universe is finite in size.
Click to expand...
I think the current blog posts addresses this, a universe in DC is indeed not infinite.

Elizio33 said:
  • The set number of the universes in DC during the Pre-Crisis era was often used to be infinite, but this is contradicted by the simple fact that when the Anti-Monitor destroyed these universes, the infinite universes collapsed into five universes, which should not be possible unless the multiverse has finite set number of universes.
Click to expand...
That storyline is wonky for a couple reason, I agree it seems counter intuitive, but the larger issue is that Anti-Monitor didn't even accomplish this using his own AP, which should be addressed at some point in the future.

Elizio33 said:
  • Hypertime is used to contain infinite possibilities, but this is contradicted by multiple stories of entities destroying the possibilities of Hypertime almost in its entirety which should not be possible unless Hypertime contains a finite set number of possibilities.
Click to expand...
Eh, I don't see it, some characters can destroy infinite things.
 
Deagonx said:
Eh, I don't see it, some characters can destroy infinite things.
Click to expand...
The thing is destroying infinite possibilities does not exist per se. It would then create another set of “infinite possibilities” there needs to be a line drawn for Hypertime. It's either infinite or not. Unless we scale total destruction of the Multiverse which is where Hypertime contains these infinite possibilities.
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
The thing is destroying infinite possibilities does not exist per se. It would then create another set of “infinite possibilities” there needs to be a line drawn for Hypertime. It's either infinite or not. Unless we scale total destruction of the Multiverse which is where Hypertime contains these infinite possibilities.
Click to expand...
that depends on how the verse works, if there is no mention that another set of possibilities was created, they simple destroyed the infinite ones and no new ones were made, i mean, i assume destroying those possibilities = destroying the multiverse anyway, unless they are explicitly separated things
 
Thelastmlg said:
that depends on how the verse works, if there is no mention that another set of possibilities was created, they simple destroyed the infinite ones and no new ones were made, i mean, i assume destroying those possibilities = destroying the multiverse anyway, unless they are explicitly separated things
Click to expand...
The Multiverse is the structure/foundation that contains each material plane. Destroying the Multiverse as a whole would scale to destroying infinite possibilities but not with Hypertime because that is set for the time stream for each continuity.

It also depends if we take Flashpoint: Beyond interpretation where Hypertime is connected with all aspects of time in the Divine Continuum.

To destroy a set “infinite structure” such as Hypertime would either mean it isn't infinite in possibilities or that there is a multiple finite set or transfinite amount of possibilities that merges. Hypertime shouldn't be fully 2-A because of this.
 
Guys. These are just examples to say that although something is said to be infinite, it can be contradicted by the context given by the story, that's all. Sure, there are beings that can create or destroy infinite structures or universes or higher dimensions, I'm just saying we should check the context before immediately assuming that they really can do such a thing just because the narrative says so.

@Deagonx I am aware that the destruction of "infinite universes" was not done by the Anti-Monitor's own AP but it was an example I was doing.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
A feat for character can be outlier, but that doesn't make size of cosmology an outlier.

That's explicitly not how scaling works.
Click to expand...
No, but the term 'infinite' used to describe the size or number of something given the context might be hyperbole, not always, but it does happen sometimes.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Infinity used to describe sizes of universes or multiverse are rarely hyperbole.

If I say that there are infinite sand particles on the beach, that maybe hyperbole.
Click to expand...
Well, we'd certainly think of "infinite grains of sand on the beach" as hyperbole because it's obviously and provably wrong. That's not always the case with the size of a universe, where it could be how the franchise is treating the universe, or it could be hyperbole. With DC we have quite a few statements and other indications of it being finite, which suggests the infinite statements (there aren't very many) are likely hyperbolic.
 
Deagonx said:
Well, we'd certainly think of "infinite grains of sand on the beach" as hyperbole because it's obviously and provably wrong. That's not always the case with the size of a universe, where it could be how the franchise is treating the universe, or it could be hyperbole. With DC we have quite a few statements and other indications of it being finite, which suggests the infinite statements (there aren't very many) are likely hyperbolic.
Click to expand...
That's all I mean.
 
Likely, not definitively.
It could be just a case of genuine contradiction or a retcon or whatever. In which case those pieces of datum could be outlier. But that's still not hyperbole.

I haven't got knowledge enough to have any opinion on whether or not those "finite" descriptors have any significance to them outweighing "infinite" ones, that's upto experts like Emirp or Oliver to handle.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
But that's still not hyperbole
Click to expand...
Well, some of the scans in PotM's blog that were used for an infinite universe appeared to me as very clear hyperbole used in poetic contexts.

Such as this one which reads "I soon found myself staring -- into the dark, into the night -- into the infinite vastness of space -- and the comfort of the beckoning stars." Not the kind of thing that reads as an objective and matter-of-fact description of the cosmos, it definitely seems like flowery language to me.

GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Likely, not definitively.
Click to expand...

Very little is ever definitive in these kinds of things, we just have to try to make the best conclusions we can.
 
Deagonx said:
Such as this one which reads "I soon found myself staring -- into the dark, into the night -- into the infinite vastness of space -- and the comfort of the beckoning stars." Not the kind of thing that reads as an objective and matter-of-fact description of the cosmos, it definitely seems like flowery language to me.
Click to expand...
Would a poetic style of talking invalidate what is being described? I don't think so.
But I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Would a poetic style of talking invalidate what is being described? I don't think so.
Click to expand...
It's not a matter of invalidation, it's a matter of whether or not the phrase is meant literally rather than figuratively. If someone said that in real life, we'd know it's not literal, but we wouldn't regard a phrase like "infinite vastness of space" as being some nonsensical thing like a flat earth, because it's very common to use the word infinite figuratively. In such cases, it's ideal to not use ambiguous and poetic language literally and focus on instances where it's more concrete.
 
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