Improving contents of Powers & Abilities pages

[Bobsican]

Well, off-site discussion isn't that useful (or reliable for this kind of purpose) if there's no public reference of the involved arguments.

 

[AKM sama]

It was brought up offsite if turning an ability on or off forcefully counted for power mod

I think the page's purpose is to list users who can modify powers, as in, change them into something else or alter them slightly so that it is different than the original in its use.

Simply turning an ability off seems to fit under power null.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM and Bobsican make sense to me in this case.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ok, i'll just leave this then.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

I think the page's purpose is to list users who can modify powers, as in, change them into something else or alter them slightly so that it is different than the original in its use.

Simply turning an ability off seems to fit under power null.

Or hijacking.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

I notice that there doesn't seem to be anything for spacesuits, despite how extremely common they are.

 

[Antoniofer]

That is just equipment.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

Underwater Breathing Type 3 is also just equipment though

 

[Antoniofer]

Mmmm, right, personally I would remove that, if certain power is granted to an item/artifact then we simply write P power (via I item).

 

[Antvasima]

Antoniofer is correct. Thank you for helping out.

 

[Bobsican]

Magma Manipulation:

• Page suffers from the issue of a character just having the power in the picture, than actually using it
• The description is too similar to the one of the Superpower Wiki (even mentioning "subvariants" that are nonsense for our purposes), and so has to be rewritten

 

[Shmooply]

It looks like the character is using magma manipulation in that image, though, so it should stay. The page does still need a rewrite.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, I wouldn't say this image displays the power best.

 

[Shmooply]

Another problem with the page that I forgot to point out is that the example image sticks out in a bad way. For a lot of P&A abilities and character profiles, we place their images to the right and make it a little bit small so it doesn't cover most of the page because it looks much better and organized, which is just another reason why magma manipulation's page looks bad.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with if you appropriately rewrite the page a bit.

I also reformatted the header image to our usual praxis layout.

 

[Lou_change]

I am curious about the reason for the existence of both Biological Manipulation and Organic Manipulation, Organic Manipulation outright admits it is just matter manipulation for carbon based matter the thing is no other element gets this treatment and I am pretty sure graphite, steel, carbon nanotubes, and diamonds aren't organic because they aren't you see organic matter is hydrogen and carbon compounds. It also claims biological manipulation doesn't work on dead things which I am curious why that is the case. Back to biological manipulation it has manipulation of atoms listed as a type, that should be equal to organic manipulation slightly unrelated but biological manipulation mentions Body Control twice but never links and the shape shifting defined on the page is literally body control just link to a different thing and worded differently it should be replaced by the ability to transmute other life forms.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I am curious about the reason for the existence of both Biological Manipulation and Organic Manipulation, Organic Manipulation outright admits it is just matter manipulation for carbon based matter the thing is no other element gets this treatment and I am pretty sure graphite, steel, carbon nanotubes, and diamonds aren't organic because they aren't you see organic matter is hydrogen and carbon compounds. It also claims biological manipulation doesn't work on dead things which I am curious why that is the case. Back to biological manipulation it has manipulation of atoms listed as a type, that should be equal to organic manipulation slightly unrelated but biological manipulation mentions Body Control twice but never links and the shape shifting defined on the page is literally body control just link to a different thing and worded differently it should be replaced by the ability to transmute other life forms.

I think that "living being" refers to lifeforms instead of saying that Biological Manipulation only works on those that are alive. Things like oil and ink aren't biological, so you would need to differentiate them from biological matter somehow.

 

[Lou_change]

I don't see the need to split them even then organic waste and creations are still of biological origin it would just be a type I mean ice for example is frozen water so should ice manipulation include dry ice or since it is carbon based organic manipulation even if I am incorrect in my judgment of the need of both pages I mentioned two other problems.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I don't see the need to split them even then organic waste and creations are still of biological origin it would just be a type I mean ice for example is frozen water so should ice manipulation include dry ice or since it is carbon based organic manipulation even if I am incorrect in my judgment of the need of both pages I mentioned two other problems.

So, you would consider manipulating organic waste and creations as part of Biological Manipulation?

 

[Lou_change]

I would but I understand the other option to a degree but

Back to biological manipulation it has manipulation of atoms listed as a type, that should be equal to organic manipulation

An atomic level is lesser level then organic matter I know it says equal but I copy pasted the comment from before checking how organic matter works but I did edit in an explanation in the organic manipulation part I just forgot the second time.

 

[Lou_change]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes a list of the main members who helped out in this thread previously, I can send them a notification message.

 

[Lou_change]

Besides you, Bobsican, SamanPatou, Tllmbrg, DontTalkDT, Shmooply were common honestly a lot of staff seems to appear at different times and I am not entirely sure how much it was someone else calling them so I probably skimmed a lot of people.

 

[Antvasima]

I would much prefer a more comprehensive list that is focused on our staff members only.

 

[Lou_change]

@SamanPatou @Zaratthustra @Elizhaa @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @Damage3245 @QuasiYuri @DontTalkDT @AKM sama @Tllmbrg @ZackMoon1234 @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @Starter_Pack @Colonel_Krukov @Promestein @Nehz_XZX

 

[RoTt35]

I think that characters who are masters/skilled in riding animals (horses, elephants, dinosaurs, camels, etc) or fantasy creatures (dragons, unicorns, griffins, etc) should have the ability of Vehicular Mastery. Also, according to this dictionary, a vehicle is any means in or by which someone travels or something is carried or conveyed; a means of conveyance or transport.

 

[Antvasima]

I am curious about the reason for the existence of both Biological Manipulation and Organic Manipulation, Organic Manipulation outright admits it is just matter manipulation for carbon based matter the thing is no other element gets this treatment and I am pretty sure graphite, steel, carbon nanotubes, and diamonds aren't organic because they aren't you see organic matter is hydrogen and carbon compounds. It also claims biological manipulation doesn't work on dead things which I am curious why that is the case. Back to biological manipulation it has manipulation of atoms listed as a type, that should be equal to organic manipulation slightly unrelated but biological manipulation mentions Body Control twice but never links and the shape shifting defined on the page is literally body control just link to a different thing and worded differently it should be replaced by the ability to transmute other life forms.

@SamanPatou @Zaratthustra @Elizhaa @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @QuasiYuri @Tllmbrg @ZackMoon1234 @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @Starter_Pack @Colonel_Krukov @Nehz_XZX

I was told that you have helped out in this thread earlier. Would you be willing to do so again please?

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think that characters who are masters/skilled in riding animals (horses, elephants, dinosaurs, camels, etc) or fantasy creatures (dragons, unicorns, griffins, etc) should have the ability of Vehicular Mastery. Also, according to this dictionary, a vehicle is any means in or by which someone travels or something is carried or conveyed; a means of conveyance or transport.

I would agree with that. It makes even more sense with verses such as Fate in which the "Riding" skill includes any means of transportation.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I am curious about the reason for the existence of both Biological Manipulation and Organic Manipulation, Organic Manipulation outright admits it is just matter manipulation for carbon based matter the thing is no other element gets this treatment and I am pretty sure graphite, steel, carbon nanotubes, and diamonds aren't organic because they aren't you see organic matter is hydrogen and carbon compounds. It also claims biological manipulation doesn't work on dead things which I am curious why that is the case. Back to biological manipulation it has manipulation of atoms listed as a type, that should be equal to organic manipulation slightly unrelated but biological manipulation mentions Body Control twice but never links and the shape shifting defined on the page is literally body control just link to a different thing and worded differently it should be replaced by the ability to transmute other life forms.

Yeah, I don't really see why Organic would need its own category.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@SamanPatou @Zaratthustra @Elizhaa @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @QuasiYuri @Tllmbrg @ZackMoon1234 @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @Starter_Pack @Colonel_Krukov @Nehz_XZX

I was told that you have helped out in this thread earlier. Would you be willing to do so again please?

I disagreed with the creation of Organic Manipulation and stand by this disagreement. It may be useful to ping Anton, as I believe he suggested it, though I may be misremembering, of course.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@SamanPatou @Zaratthustra @Elizhaa @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @QuasiYuri @Tllmbrg @ZackMoon1234 @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @Starter_Pack @Colonel_Krukov @Nehz_XZX

I was told that you have helped out in this thread earlier. Would you be willing to do so again please?

I already said earlier that "living being" most likely refers to lifeforms instead of saying that it doesn't work on corpses or dead body parts. There was also the matter of whether or not organic waste and creations count as Biological Manipulation. These things aren't actually part of any living being's body, so whether or not they can be manipulated with Biological Manipulation would be subject to discussion though since they are produced by living beings Biological Manipulation should at the very least be capable of creating them, so there definitely is at least that bit of an overlap with Organic Manipulation. I guess that linking to Body Control would indeed be appropriate. Shape Change does indeed sound more like Body Control instead of Shapeshifting based on the description. Transmuting other life forms is most likely relevant enough for a mention.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, I don't really see why Organic would need its own category.

I disagreed with the creation of Organic Manipulation and stand by this disagreement. It may be useful to ping Anton, as I believe he suggested it, though I may be misremembering, of course.

I already said earlier that "living being" most likely refers to lifeforms instead of saying that it doesn't work on corpses or dead body parts. There was also the matter of whether or not organic waste and creations count as Biological Manipulation. These things aren't actually part of any living being's body, so whether or not they can be manipulated with Biological Manipulation would be subject to discussion though since they are produced by living beings Biological Manipulation should at the very least be capable of creating them, so there definitely is at least that bit of an overlap with Organic Manipulation. I guess that linking to Body Control would indeed be appropriate. Shape Change does indeed sound more like Body Control instead of Shapeshifting based on the description. Transmuting other life forms is most likely relevant enough for a mention.

Okay, so should we turn the organic manipulation page into a redirect link then, and if so, where?

@Antoniofer

What do you think?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that characters who are masters/skilled in riding animals (horses, elephants, dinosaurs, camels, etc) or fantasy creatures (dragons, unicorns, griffins, etc) should have the ability of Vehicular Mastery. Also, according to this dictionary, a vehicle is any means in or by which someone travels or something is carried or conveyed; a means of conveyance or transport.

I would agree with that. It makes even more sense with verses such as Fate in which the "Riding" skill includes any means of transportation.

Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense then.

 

[SamanPatou]

I've always intended Organic Manipulation as the ability to create organic matter from your body and use it for combat or other purposes, while Biological Manipulation was about affecting the biology of your opponent.

We can try to reword the pages, making Organic Manipulation specifically related to the creation of matter from yourself, therefore moving the bit about controlling non-living organic matter to the Biological Manipulation page.
If we want to deleted Organic Manipulation, then we expand Biological Manipulation to encompass the ability to create matter from yourself.

I agree with including living beings in the vehicular mastery page, and many profiles already do that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is intuitively unclear what exactly that is intended with Organic Manipulation from the name alone, so maybe turning it into a redirect link, and slighly expanding the Biological Manipulation page in combination, would be best then?

 

[Antoniofer]

Organic Manip is supposed to be an umbrella power to cover the alteration, creation, shaping, etc, of several powers not covered by other abilities; since people was suggesting the creation of stuff such sugar, ink, paint, oil manip, I though it would be better to simply create an ability that could encompass those and more.

Wouldn't relate bio manip to organic manip, the first one manipulate the functions of living beings, while the last one is akin to matter manip (although you may notice, great amount of powers are just subsets of matter manip).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Personally, Organic Manipulation and Biology Manipulation literally mean the exact same thing and that it is the ability to manipulation organic matter; meat and plants. I think only one over the other is really needed as a derivation of matter manipulation.

 

[Antoniofer]

There's a difference between living beings and carbon based matter. Bio manip is more than simply manipulating living tissue, it can enhace/damp bodily functions, alter DNA, evolution/devolution, metabolism, etc; meanwhile current organic manip is basically elemental manipulation.

You can remove the power if is such a bother, but if that is the case, matter manip will replace it, not biological manip.

 

[Lou_change]

Organic Manipulation outright admits it is just matter manipulation for carbon based matter the thing is no other element gets this treatment and I am pretty sure graphite, steel, carbon nanotubes, and diamonds aren't organic because they aren't you see organic matter is hydrogen and carbon compounds.

Still wrong about the carbon thing