Important Naruto Speed Revision & Lightning Release Revision

[Rocker1189]

I got asked about this before, but without the context of what verse this was. The names that matter should be fairly obvious.It is true that "supersonic" just means faster than the speed of sound, but scaling to natural lightning speed due to things like those characteristics is also a bit sketchy imo so I don't really know. Not exactly an anime knowledgeable, just asked to comment.
Personally, I'd take the statement over "displays other characteristics of lightning" especially given that electricity can travel at a lot of different speeds.

While this is true, the speed of abilities does depend on each character this means that the weakest raiton would be baseline supersonic and others that display faster speeds would be indeed faster also ceetain jutsu have lightning speed statements and there are numerous light speed statements as well.

 

[Rocker1189]

µÑÁÞÂàÚƒ│Úǃ - hypersonic
µÑÁÞÂàÚƒ│ÚǃÞ╝©ÚÇüµ®ƒ - hypersonic speed

thanks for the useless translations? we are not saying the words dont exist, we are saying they are not used a lot, just like in english.

 

[Rocker1189]

at the end of the day all we use it kakuzu's lightning with lightning statement and mitsuki's following 3 of the criteria and a 4th not noted. So this really wont change anything.

 

[Damage3245]

For me personally this drastically puts the speed ratings of Naruto in a new light. I believe that this statement overrides having to assume jutsu speed based on the characteristics of lightning.

Nothing will need to be changed this moment, but this opens up the path for several calcs to be made at least.

 

[Rocker1189]

For me personally this drastically puts the speed ratings of Naruto in a new light. I believe that this statement overrides having to assume jutsu speed based on the characteristics of lightning.
Nothing will need to be changed this moment, but this opens up the path for several calcs to be made at least.

wait..are you trying to say that 1 statement in a novel completely overides everything else in stated ine Naruto? What?

 

[Damage3245]

wait..are you trying to say that 1 statement in a novel completely overides everything else in stated ine Naruto? What?

There are precisely no speed statements about the speed of lightning release in the original Naruto manga except for the implication that natural lightning is far faster via Sasuke's and Black Zetsu' statements.

 

[Jvando]

And supposedly overrides feats and some scaling unless we want to conveniently forget that Itachi reacted to Kirin (which no one is arguing against), a reaction that scales to many other characters.

I'll agree if you want to calc lighting Jutsu that haven't been stated to be comparable to our avg lighting speed or something, but those that have been (Kakuzu in particular) shouldn't have to be changed.

 

[Rocker1189]

There are precisely no speed statements about the speed of lightning release in the original Naruto manga except for the implication that natural lightning is far faster via Sasuke's and Black Zetsu' statements.

That is not my point, you are saying this as if this statement changes anything at all, it literally only confirms to us the wind and lightning release are supersonic at the very least. That is literally it.

 

[Damage3245]

> And supposedly overrides feats and some scaling unless we want to conveniently forget that Itachi reacted to Kirin (which no one is arguing against), a reaction that scales to many other characters.

That is a different topic really. If Itachi has his own feat, that's fine.

 

[Rocker1189]

also this confirms that ninja throw objects at super sonic speeds at the very least.

 

[AstralKing7]

Ummm we can't even use that statement becuae of the fact that lightning release has different forms and shapes which damage h should have known. For one the statement said it could be compared to wind release or lightning but not stated which. Second it did specify which lightning style jutsu because we don't even accept Chidori, Lightning beast nor the lightning ball jutsu as lightning speed.


You really should have thought about this before bringing a statement that is hardly direct it what it try's to compare.

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; It does not specify any lightning release jutsu, but lightning release in general.

My argument for the longest time is that lightning release in general cannot be assumed to be lightning speeds.

 

[Jvando]

> And supposedly overrides feats and some scaling unless we want to conveniently forget that Itachi reacted to Kirin (which no one is arguing against), a reaction that scales to many other characters.

That is a different topic really. If Itachi has his own feat, that's fine.

The issue is that your assumption that this somehow linearizes thw speed scaling is completely false.

The difference between Mach 1.1 and Mach 3k (Kirin) doesn't need to be explained any further. You will never get consistent scaling if you want to use the absolute low ends for every lighting feat in verse.

 

[Rocker1189]

@damage

soooo you brought a useless statment then, since jutsu indeed vary as this thread concluded?

actually I guess it is useful for a baseline speed.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; lightning jutsu can indeed vary in speed. I didn't dispute that. My point is that it has now been firmly suggested that lightning release jutsu is generally supersonic speed.

So saying "well, this lightning release jutsu shows some properties of lightning" does nothing to prove that it actually is lightning speed.

 

[AstralKing7]

@AstralKing7; It does not specify any lightning release jutsu, but lightning release in general.

My argument for the longest time is that lightning release in general cannot be assumed to be lightning speeds.

Not all lightning release is lightning speed which is the point. Were u not even in half of those threads we made about raiton cause it seems not. The fact that it said lightning release proves it. Try again man. Not all raiton jutsu are lightning speed in the first place

 

[Jvando]

@AstralKing7; It does not specify any lightning release jutsu, but lightning release in general.

My argument for the longest time is that lightning release in general cannot be assumed to be lightning speeds.

Clearly, because there are lighting release jutsu shown to have completely different shapes than lighting. No one will argue with you on this point as Lighting Balls probably don't travel at average lighting speed. With this, however, we can say that lighting balls travel at Supersonic speeds.

For Raiton that are simply shot out as lighting bolts? Nah, those should stay at avg lighting speeds

 

[TataHakai]

Supersonic is "involving or denoting a speed greater than that of sound."

5000x the speed of sound is technically still supersonic as it is a speed greater than that of sound, the speed range is one that involves a range that combines together

For example if someone was said to be faster than 51mph and scales to way higher, that doesn't mean he has to be 52mph since 10,000 mph is still faster than 51mph and doesn't contradict the statement, same thing here

The statement also makes no sense when you consider what it's saying, that Gaara can't react to Supersonic speeds without his automatic defence, unless this Jutsu is moving at Rel+ speeds which Gaara scales to if i recall correctly, which contradicts every single calc ever created in the entire series

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker1189; lightning jutsu can indeed vary in speed. I didn't dispute that. My point is that it has now been firmly suggested that lightning release jutsu is generally supersonic speed.
So saying "well, this lightning release jutsu shows some properties of lightning" does nothing to prove that it actually is lightning speed.

Nah that is not what it means, it means that lightning jutsu are at least supersonic speed speed.

you do know that lightning speed is indeed supersonic right?

 

[Damage3245]

@TataHakai; Occam's Razor would suggest that if the term "supersonic" is used to describe a flying kunai which is comparable to both wind release and lightning release that they're not referring to something thousands of times faster than sound.

Besides, for calcing purposes we would use baseline supersonic speeds an assumption, right?

 

[AstralKing7]

What's worse is that this basically the same thing a Soul Rock Lee back in the chunin exams fighting against the guy with super sonic bullets. Gaara has been faster than sound for the longest


Thought really didn't go into making this downgrade

 

[M3X_2.0]

Why don't you try to downgrade DBS because of the lightspeed statement for Dyspo? It is literally the same case. A faster character fighting or block someone/something with a statement lower than its current speed. Also, Guy is one of the fastest characters and his punch were stated to be supersonic.

Unless you think Guy or an attack wich gave Gaara trouble is slower than Part I characters... you should stop with that

 

[Damage3245]

@M3X; no speed changes have been proposed yet.

 

[M3X_2.0]

It is not hard to figure out the real intentions behind this statement

 

[TataHakai]

@TataHakai; Occam's Razor would suggest that if the term "supersonic" is used to describe a flying kunai which is comparable to both wind release and lightning release that they're not referring to something thousands of times faster than sound.
Besides, for calcing purposes we would use baseline supersonic speeds an assumption, right?

Except that's not how Occam's razor works buddy

You assuming supersonic means mach 1.1 isn't any different from assuming it's mach 50000, it's the same assumption just with a different value attached

In fact Occam's razor would support mach 50k+ (not literally mach 50k just a random number) becuase that's where a lot of the feats for Ninja are and this Kunai was supposedly moving fast enough to hit Gaara without his auto defence

So occam's razor doesn't work here, and even if it did it wouldn't be in your favour

 

[Damage3245]

@TataHakai; a lot of the feats for some characters are only that high because of the assumption in the first place that certain jutsu are natural lightning speed.

Whichever way this ends up, I just want us to have an open discussion about it and not automatically rule anything out. I don't anticipate that any proposed changes will happen for a while as there are a lot of calcs to make and verify.

I'm sure that most of us just want what is best in terms of accuracy and consistency.

 

[Rocker1189]

@M3X; no speed changes have been proposed yet.

Let me guess, everyone is supersonic and maybe a low end hypersonic god tier (shocker).

 

[Xulrev]

Except that's not how Occam's razor works buddy

You assuming supersonic means mach 1.1 isn't any different from assuming it's mach 50000, it's the same assumption just with a different value attached

This isn't how the wiki works. Given statements we presume baseline.

Further, Japanese has explicit words for higher speeds as IMade pointed out. You cannot presume the word's connotation is in your favor when the language used at base can indeed utilize language to be indicative of higher speed.

It's disingenuous to pursue this line of argumentation as such.

 

[MostPowerfull]

> Several characteristics of real lightnings.
> Assumptions ...

HMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

 

[OrangeberrySama]

Just clearing something up. Literally every source I've looked at states that hypersonic is a greater measure of speed than supersonic. Hypersonic starts at Mach 5; so the fastest something could be and still be considered "Supersonic" is below Mach 5.

Therefore, Raiton being considered as lightning speed, (hundreds to thousands of Mach), definitely does contradict the statement made. That's all I have to say but please keep this in mind while making any further arguements.

 

[TataHakai]

No dude, Adult Gaara is literally Relativistic and there's plenty of Rel/Rel+ feats in the verse

Even without those you have weaker ninja moving at MHS+ speeds

The statement is literally nonsense, backed up by nothing and contradicted by the story itself

Not to mention Supersonic itself again is an encompassing term, it can mean Mach 1.1 to whatever finite number you want

 

[Rocker1189]

because authors dont use these rules.

also not all raiton is considered that without feats, statements or follwoing criteria.

 

[Damage3245]

@TataHakai; all I'll say is that nothing is set in stone and immune to change. Gaara wasn't even rated as Relativistic until recently after all.

I understand you disagree with me, but both of us shouldn't pretend that each of our sides is the objective truth.

 

[Rocker1189]

This isn't how the wiki works. Given statements we presume baseline.

Further, Japanese has explicit words for higher speeds as IMade pointed out. You cannot presume the word's connotation is in your favor when the language used at base can indeed utilize language to be indicative of higher speed.

It's disingenuous to pursue this line of argumentation as such.

and english has hypersonic yet very few authors use it even when describing things at hundreds of times the speed of sound.

 

[TataHakai]

Dude hypersonic is Still supersonic, as it's faster than sound

That's just a term to split the different categories of sound into smaller areas

In short

Hypersonic is supersonic but Supersonic isn't hypersonic

So if something was moving at mach 5, and someone said it's moving at supersonic speeds and someone else said it's moving at hypersonic speeds

They're both correct.

 

[AstralKing7]

Gaara being supersonic is huge downplay and that's obvious. I want even taken that serious

 

[Xulrev]

@Tata

Arguing semantics doesn't alter the base point; the word used ca be inclusive, but the wiki operates on utilizing explicit statements at their baseline value, and as such no presumptions should be made of such a statement. There is no arguing that point I do believe.

It's another piece of evidence to take into consideration for the verse is all. We take explicit statements to be meaningful so this should absolutely be examined.

 

[Damage3245]

Gaara being supersonic is huge downplay and that's obvious. I want even taken that serious

I've not proposed that Gaara be treated as supersonic. No speed proposals have been made yet.

 

[AstralKing7]

So Damage think some of us are being subjective Okay sure but even without us here Tata jsut debunked everything with an argument that literally can't be disproven without downplaying.ƒñªÔÇìÔÖ鴩ŃñªÔÇìÔÖ鴩ŃñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å

Gaara is Rel. Him being supersonic is downplaying. Stop it.

 

[AstralKing7]

I've not proposed that Gaara be treated as supersonic. No speed proposals have been made yet.


Bro do u not understand the own statement that u brought??? If u don't understand it then why did I u try to use it??