Important Naruto Speed Revision & Lightning Release Revision

[BlackeJan]

Astral pretty much gave us very good details

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Since the process for forming it is the same for every single user of Raiton, it's properties must be the same.

The process of creating a bullet is the same for every single round created in the US military; would you state all properties of all bullets must be the same? Same speed, weight, etc?
And if you wish to point out differences in casing size, grains per casing, etc, well that would be the same as the variance between the end result of the Raiton forged by each individual user.

So why should we not accept a 'standard bullet speed' on the wiki based on this argument, regardless of gun make or model?

Yeah, it's completely false to say the process of forming a Raiton Jutsu is the same for every single user.

Does that mean Sasuke's Chidori in his fight with Gaara is the same as the Chidori he uses in his final fight with Naruto?

No, that's asinine.

The Raiton changes depending on what the user is inputting into the Jutsu. And this is a literal point about why Kirin was special.


It was a special Raiton Jutsu because it used actual lightning and had lightning speed according to Zetsu and Sasuke, making it undodgable.


Why would all Raiton be lightning speed too then? That's Kirin's speciality.


Now people are trying to refute this by saying:

"Well lightning speed varies, Kirin could be a faster set of lightning speed and Raiton Jutsu a lower set of lightning speed."

No offense but that's stupid and goes against everything Sasuke and Zetsu implied. Kirin was special for having lightning speed, regular Raiton don't have this speed as their words imply. Why would they speak about Kirin having just lightning speed, but be implying that it has super high lightning speed and that regular Raiton is still lightning speed. That's contradictory and doesn't align with their words.

In order for this headcanon to exist, Zetsu and Sasuke would have to have said "Kirin is faster than lightning speed like regular Raiton".

 

[Jvando]

I have no idea what that first part of your post is even about. Yeah, the chidori is basically the same, it's just more powerful. It's really that simple. The process of forming is the same.

Also, Lighting speed varies. When we say lighting speed, it can be higher or lower than the average. That's all I'll say about that subject.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

Raiton has the same properties across the board. This isn't about to be debated. The premise that all Lightning Nature Chakra doesn't have the same properties is tantamount to saying all "Fire Style" Jutsu don't burn. It's asinine and any person trying to argue this point should automatically be dismissed.

The only thing different about each Lightning Style Jutsu is the Shape Transformationq

 

[Gemmysaur]

Jeezus, this is a long thread of back and forth.

Imo, looking at the Kirin feat in context and not enforcing our own standards on it is best. It's only one of a grand total of two natural lightning-based attacks (the other being Madara's natural energy lightning branches) in the verse and is specifically noted to be lightning speed. No need to point that out if all Raiton are lightning speed and this is just on the higher end of said speed.

As for Madara's lightning branch arms and NaruSasu's means of dealing with it, Naruto threw his stick at it and throwing stuff, if sports is any indication (105mph fastest baseball pitch vs 28mph fastest 100m sprint), is faster than running to the side. Sasuke on the other hand can perceive instinctively used his eye powers, as Sharingan users tend to do.

 

[AstralKing7]

Thank you gemmy^

 

[Damage3245]

I think part of the issue comes from our standards in assuming anything that displays lightning properties must inherently move at lightning speed without any additional context.

Both Boruto's Vanishing Rasengan and Sasuke's Chidori Senbon are lightning release techniques but they appear to get their travel speed from the user throwing the technique, not from any inherent property of speed derived from the element.

To give another example, it is possible to make a clone out of lightning chakra. Does this automatically mean the clones movements are fixed to lightning speed?

 

[Jvando]

There are obviously other standards that we don't state that we apply. There is a reason why Kakashi's lighting beast was disqualified as lighting speed despite it being Raiton and also why the lighting balls were disqualified as lighting speed. If they aren't even shaped like lighting, there's no point to consider them as such.

Huge difference between shooting a lighting bolt and forming it into a giant tiger that can be manipulated, a lighting clone, a magical throwing ball, senbon, etc. (especially when the latter two require you to physically throw them.) No one is arguing for every single lighting based technique to be lighting speed, how would that even work for something like chidori? We are only arguing in favor of lighting techniques that show the general shape of lighting and don't have to be thrown. And again, lighting speed isn't fixed. I would assume stronger Raiton users might have faster Raiton techniques that fit under our range of lighting speed, we just assume average speed.

 

[Damage3245]

> There is a reason why Kakashi's lighting beast was disqualified as lighting speed despite it being Raiton and also why the lighting balls were disqualified as lighting speed.

That's interesting, because Mitsuki's technique resembles a large snake. Both when it is formed, and when it is travelling through the air.

> No one is arguing for every single lighting based technique to be lighting speed, how would that even work for something like chidori?

This may have been something I was misunderstanding then; because it seemed like the arguments were that all lightning jutsu shared the same properties and that the speed of the jutsu being the speed of lightning was one of the those shared properties.

 

[AstralKing7]

Damage stop using vanishing Rasengan. That jutsu was said to be special in the first place and still hasn't be explained till this day. It was even stated to be probably a s strange trait inherited from his mother in father which means it's a Kekkai genkai most likely

Also we weren't going to ever scale anything that requires the user to throw an attack physically to lightning speed unless it was stated to move at that speed.


It kinda jsut feels like your reaching Damage now with these clones. The fact that they don't even travel as light like we all agreed pretty much means they don't scale as well because they don't even turn into lightning until they are hit and the lightning doesn't travel it just kinda explodes in one spot.

 

[Damage3245]

> Damage stop using vanishing Rasengan. That jutsu was said to be special in the first place and still hasn't be explained till this day. It was even stated to be probably a s strange trait inherited from his mother in father which means it's a Kekkai genkai most likely

The earlier point about the Vanishing Rasengan has nothing to do with the point I just made about throwing it.

 

[Jvando]

I think it holds the general shape of lighting



Kakashi's lighting beast also ran on all fours so that was an issue. Also, Mitsuki's lighting honestly resembles a lighting bolt except it's head is "forked" in a way that resembles a mouth. At least that's my perception of it. It doesn't deviate from the General shape of lighting to disqualify it unlike a literal tiger of lighting.


I believe they do hold the same properties and speed being one of them when their shape isn't manipulated (Ball lighting, chidori, vanishing Rasengan). Thinks like Kakuzu's false darkness would work as average lighting speed since it's just a bolt of lighting with no shape manipulation whatsoever. As a matter of fact, there were a lot of comments on the Kakashi lighting beast attack that didn't agree with it because of its large deviation from the typical lighting bolt shape. I wouldn't argue to use something like chidori where it's speed is wholly dependent on the user or something like Vanishing Rasengan which doesn't even look like a lighting bolt and whose properties seem to have been altered due to something unique to boruto. Lighting senbon is an obvious case because those are thrown and are obviously disqualified unless we use calc stacking. Lighting clones again would depend on how fast the user is (since I assume the clones mimic his/her physical stats) and wouldn't work unless we use calc stacking (which is a no go).

 

[Damage3245]

Apologies for the late bump but I've discovered some new evidence that I feel warranted posting.

This may not sway some people, but it needs to be taken into consideration all the same.

In the Gaara Hiden novel which follows the main story of Naruto, Gaara's sand reacts to a supersonic kunai thrown his way, and Gaara himself stops the shockwave from the supersonic kunai with his own Wind Release jutsu.

The most important part of this segment however is that the supersonic kunai is compared in speed to "wind release" and "lightning release". This strongly supports the interpretation that lightning release jutsu are nothing special compared to other jutsu and that their typical speed is a lot lower than natural lightning speed.

As far as I can tell this is the only proper statement we have about the speed of lightning release in Naruto and should override the assumption that lightning release jutsu can be assumed to be lightning speed by default.


Here is the relevant passage from the novel:

He was aiming for the window where the sniper was positioned. The enemy should be expecting Gaara to make his escape from somewhere other than the window where a sniper had been positioned. There were most likely shinobi lying in wait there. Gaara exploited that fact. He kicked against the window sill, and jumped. Underneath him, he could see the hotel's garden blur away. It was a poor move. He'd carried a charge he was meant to be protecting while jumping out into an open field where a sniper was waiting. If this had been an exam at the Academy, he would've gotten zero marks. But, that was exactly why the sniper took action just a second too late. Right before his eyes, a kunai was rushing towards him with supersonic speed. It's speed was pretty much equal to that of a wind or lightning release. If Gaara had been a normal shinobi, then his skull would've been pierced before he noticed it, and he'd have died. But, Gaara's sand surged out of his gourd and casually deflected the kunai. His sand shield. It was an absolute defence concerned only with protecting him, one that wasn't even connected to his own will. Gaara cleared the shock wave from the supersonic speed of the kunai with his wind release. Even if he was carrying Hakuto, he could manage the hand seal movements with just a bit of shuffling.

The full translated text for Gaara Hiden can be found here.

Now don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to say that every jutsu in the verse is no faster than supersonic speeds, but I want us to be able to look at this quote objectively and make deductions from it.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That's a pretty blatant god damn statement.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

That's a hard statement, wow.

 

[Elizhaa]

I guess the statement would be useful for future speed threads, then.

 

[Xulrev]

Just for clarity's sake:

These novels are indeed accepted as canon, correct? A brief perusal seems to indicate as such, but I want to make sure before engaging a new piece of evidence I'm not intimately familiar with.

If it is indeed canon, then yeah, that's some pretty clear-cut wording. I imagine an objective statement of such definitely needs to be taken into consideration, and strongly so, since it doesn't parse words.

 

[Damage3245]

It would be useful for several speed calcs too. Characters reacting to certain Wind Release or Lightning Release jutsu can use baseline supersonic speeds for those jutsu as an assumption in the calculations.

 

[Damage3245]

Just for clarity's sake:
These novels are indeed accepted as canon, correct? A brief perusal seems to indicate as such, but I want to make sure before engaging a new piece of evidence I'm not intimately familiar with.

If it is indeed canon, then yeah, that's some pretty clear-cut wording. I imagine an objective statement of such definitely needs to be taken into consideration, and strongly so, since it doesn't parse words.

I had doubts about that myself but AstralKing7 informed me that these novels have been accepted as canon on here for years.

 

[Xulrev]

Well thank you for the confirmation, damage.

In that case, yes the presumption that all Wind and Lightning release ought to be treated as supersonic seems to be a fair one. Also of importance is the fact the quote highlights that any ordinary shinobi would be unable to react to a supersonic projectile.

My observations on this in light of new evidence.

 

[Rocker1189]

You are assuming that super sonic means baseline supersonic? what?

 

[Damage3245]

You are assuming that super sonic means baseline supersonic? what?

Of course supersonic does not have to mean just that - but for the purpose of using that statement in a calc it would be the most reasonable value to use.

 

[Xulrev]

You are assuming that super sonic means baseline supersonic? what?

That's how the wiki treats statements. If you're stated to bust a planet, you're baseline planetary. If you're stated to be hypersonic, you're baseline hypersonic.

We can't pick and choose based on biases.

 

[Rocker1189]

Of course supersonic does not have to mean just that - but for the purpose of using that statement in a calc it would be the most reasonable value to use.

I mean ok I guess but what does this mean in the grand skeem of things, it is more an upgrade to the verse than anything since we can assummie that every wind and lightning release is at least supersonic in speed.

 

[Damage3245]

I mean ok I guess but what does this mean in the grand skeem of things, it is more an upgrade to the verse than anything since we can assummie that every wind and lightning release is at least supersonic in speed.

As for how this affects the verse as a whole, I am not 100% sure. But once we start finding some feats that we can use for calcs then it should become clear.

I just thought it was important first that I bring this statement to everyone's attention.

 

[Jvando]

You do realize that supersonic means >than sound, correct? That is a large range. And that I'm unaware of any author that uses terms like "Massively Hypersonic" or the like.

It's being termed as such does not mean you can use baseline Supersonic for every lighting or Wind release feat...well maybe wind release since we don't know how far into "supersonic" it is.

For lighting, keeping our assumptions with it is fine.

 

[Rocker1189]

As for how this affects the verse as a whole, I am not 100% sure. But once we start finding some feats that we can use for calcs then it should become clear.

I just thought it was important first that I bring this statement to everyone's attention.

I mean, it literally upgrades the verse, we can now alc wind and lightning releases to be supersonic at the very least and anything with feats showing them at higher speeds mean that they are higher than that.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That's how we do things though, we assume baseline without further evidence.

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando; I have to disagree. We have no statements from the manga indicating that lightning release jutsu are lightning speed. This is the first concrete speed we've seen assigned to lightning release and wind release jutsu.

Assuming baseline supersonic speed for the calcs is the best option right now.

 

[Rocker1189]

That's how we do things though, we assume baseline without further evidence.

I know that, I am saying that now we can assume super sonic for every wind and lightning release and this does not contradict anything that shows itself to be faster since literally no author actually uses the word hypersonic(or very few do).

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I was responding to Jvando with my comment.

 

[Jvando]

Alright, let me say this.

We have Raiton at avg lighting speed based on its displayed characteristics and scaling.

We have Raiton stated to be supersonic.

Where is the contradiction?

 

[Damage3245]

> We have Raiton at avg lighting speed based on its displayed characteristics and scaling.

We've already established that not all Raiton is assumed to be average lightning speed in the first place.

And the "scaling" reason doesn't hold up since the scaling itself may be altered now.

Raiton being stated to be supersonic, and comparable to both Wind Release and a kunai indicates that the speed is significantly lower than natural lightning.

Backed up further by my arguments regarding Kirin on it.

Things are lot more cohesive now from my point of view.

I'm going to begin making some fresh calcs for the verse and see what is the most consistent result.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Massively Hypersonic and Ultra Sonic are words that exist in Japanese.

For example, Bleach has a few Ultra Sonics thrown in it's Databook.

 

[Jvando]

Massively Hypersonic and Ultra Sonic are words that exist in Japanese.

For example, Bleach has a few Ultra Sonics thrown in it's Databook.

They are words that exist in English too so I fail to see your point.

My point is their use in any fiction in general and Ultrasonic? We Don't even use that term in the wiki unless you mean supersonic

 

[Rocker1189]

Massively Hypersonic and Ultra Sonic are words that exist in Japanese.
For example, Bleach has a few Ultra Sonics thrown in it's Databook.

And words still not being used ften something would be hundreds of times faster than sound and still called supersonic.

 

[Wokistan]

I got asked about this before, but without the context of what verse this was. The names that matter should be fairly obvious.

It is true that "supersonic" just means faster than the speed of sound, but scaling to natural lightning speed due to things like those characteristics is also a bit sketchy imo so I don't really know. Not exactly an anime knowledgeable, just asked to comment.

Personally, I'd take the statement over "displays other characteristics of lightning" especially given that electricity can travel at a lot of different speeds.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

µÑÁÞÂàÚƒ│Úǃ - hypersonic

µÑÁÞÂàÚƒ│ÚǃÞ╝©ÚÇüµ®ƒ - hypersonic speed

 

[Rocker1189]

> We have Raiton at avg lighting speed based on its displayed characteristics and scaling.
We've already established that not all Raiton is assumed to be average lightning speed in the first place.

And the "scaling" reason doesn't hold up since the scaling itself may be altered now.

Raiton being stated to be supersonic, and comparable to both Wind Release and a kunai indicates that the speed is significantly lower than natural lightning.

Backed up further by my arguments regarding Kirin on it.

Things are lot more cohesive now from my point of view.

I'm going to begin making some fresh calcs for the verse and see what is the most consistent result.

The best you got is that they are at least baseline supersonic and at most what they have been shown to be based on feats and how they have followed criteria, really wont change anything but go ahead I guess. any raiton that is not calced gets bumped to a solid supersonic and same with wind release.

 

[Jvando]

> We have Raiton at avg lighting speed based on its displayed characteristics and scaling.

We've already established that not all Raiton is assumed to be average lightning speed in the first place.

And the "scaling" reason doesn't hold up since the scaling itself may be altered now.

Raiton being stated to be supersonic, and comparable to both Wind Release and a kunai indicates that the speed is significantly lower than natural lightning.

Backed up further by my arguments regarding Kirin on it.

Things are lot more cohesive now from my point of view.

I'm going to begin making some fresh calcs for the verse and see what is the most consistent result.

No, we haven't established that, unless you mean Raiton that clearly don't act or look like a lighting bolt then sure.

Supersonic merely means faster than sound which avg lighting speed is. Also, scaling would be affected because Kirin is still a thing and no one's debating that. Your Kirin point is also moot since it's its own thing and using statements and our standards doesn't cause a conflict.