Bleach - Kamishini no Yari speed

[MillenniumSunny]

Since the topic recently came up, I figured I’d present my arguments against Kamishini no Yari’s speed being Mach 500

Mainly, I think it makes a lot more sense to say Gin’s statement when he says “500 times faster than that” isn’t referring to the speed at which the sound of him clapping traveled, but 500 times faster than the speed Gin clapped at.

First of all, let’s go over the interpretation that Gin is referring to the speed of the sound of his clap traveling. This interpretation requires you to believe

• Kamishini no Yari’s Mach 500 is the fastest zanpakuto in existence when zanpakuto that fire lightning which is confirmed to be ACTUALLY lightning speed literally exist and were in the hands of random fodder (it’s confirmed you would need to be fast enough to react to lightning or aim dodge to block it)
• Mach 500 is too fast for Ichigo to reliably/consistently aim dodge, when Tokinada is capable of either blatantly reacting to or aim dodging lightning, and Soi Fon and Yoruichi can’t tell which but don’t write off the possibility of him reacting to lightning meaning it shouldn’t be a large gap regardless, this same Tokinada is relative to Shunsui, who verifiably doesn’t get stronger since the Arrancar arc and therefore should not be faster than Kamishini no Yari
• The delay between Gin making a sound and the sound reaching Ichigo applies here, but not when Gin is directly speaking to him here or when Ichigo is using sound to detect Ginjo while blinded or when Ichigo uses sound to stop himself from getting perception blitzed by Kenpachi

The statement referring to being 500 times faster than Gin’s clap makes much more sense because

• The databook LITERALLY ELABORATES ON THIS SCENE AND SAYS THIS VERBATIM
• Even Soul Society Ichigo’s speed is compared to lightning
• Shinso, which should obviously be much slower than Kamishini no Yari, is described as lightning speed in CFYOW, and when used by a weaker wielder too. While it is true that CFYOW lightning speed statements are weird (I mean, they call both CFYOW Kenpachi and Shinso lightning speed), we do know for sure that there is at least a MINIMUM speed required to be called that by the novel, which is slower but still relative to regular lightning. (Ginjo has trouble dodging the arrows, even though relative/weaker Fullbringers were able to react to Electrocution, which is “genuine lightning” and “near lightning speed” which should make it extremely close to lightning speed at minimum, and the arrows should be slower but not to a massive degree)

The speed value for Kamishini no Yari should be 500x what Gin’s speed can scale to (post-Ulquiorra fight Ichigo and the Espada), and Buto should be 1000x that value since it’s twice as fast.

Agree: @Dalesean027, @Random-Helper323
Disagree: @Damage3245

 

[Saqphire]

We already nuked it using the same arguments in a recent thread, with four staff agreeing with them.

Yes I disagree with the cap

The calc replacements are fine and self evident (also literally have already been accepted in other threads so not much to comment on there), but yeah I still find myself disagreeing with the cap

Agreed with these two positions (in reference to me saying Gin's statements can't be used)

Everything but the cap sounds like a good conclusion to me too.

However Damage would probably want a formal CRT for some reason ig??? If so, I agree with you obviously

 

[MillenniumSunny]

We already nuked it using the same arguments in a recent thread, with four staff agreeing with them.





However Damage would probably want a formal CRT for some reason ig??? If so, I agree with you obviously

Yeah, I just made the thread because I saw people saying to make a separate CRT for this earlier

 

[Dalesean027]

Mach 500 isn't the speed of the bankai, the TL you linked literally even says its the 500x the speed of his hands not 500x the speed of sound.

Also Buto is 2x faster and would be 1000x not 500 but regardless this CRT does not bring anything new to a topic that has been rehashed numerous times.

If you have no new evidence to be presented here then this should probably be closed

 

[MillenniumSunny]

Mach 500 isn't the speed of the bankai, the TL you linked literally even says its the 500x the speed of his hands not 500x the speed of sound.

Also Buto is 2x faster and would be 1000x not 500 but regardless this CRT does not bring anything new to a topic that has been rehashed numerous times.

If you have no new evidence to be presented here then this should probably be closed

Right, that’s what I’m saying, I’m saying it isn’t Mach 500
Maybe my wording was confusing? I was pointing out contradictions when I was referring to it as Mach 500
I also did directly mention Buto being 1000x at the end lol

 

[Dalesean027]

Right, that’s what I’m saying, I’m saying it isn’t Mach 500
Maybe my wording was confusing? I was pointing out contradictions when I was referring to it as Mach 500
I also did directly mention Buto being 1000x at the end lol

I see, yeah the wording read to me that you were saying it was 500x sound and not his hands so thats probably my bad then, apologies

 

[MillenniumSunny]

I see, yeah the wording read to me that you were saying it was 500x sound and not his hands so thats probably my bad then, apologies

Can I take that as agreement then?

also should I put down all the people that agreed from the other thread or wait until they say something here

 

[Dalesean027]

Then yeah I agree to the proposals going through again with the right angle in mind

 

[Random-Helper323]

It's weird that the translation says the sword is 500 times faster than Gin's hands, then proceeds to call it faster than sound. Still, it'd make sense for his Bankai to be a speed amp relative to himself rather than having a set speed.

This seems okay to me.

 

[ItsMeat]

Yeah, agree, it's explicitly ×500 (and ×1000 with Buto) times faster than his hands

 

[Damage3245]

I disagree; Gin is explictly referring to the sound reaching Ichigo and saying it is 500 times faster than that. It would be incredibly random for Gin's Bankai to be 500 times faster than the speed that he can clap his hands together at, and not a more objective number like the speed of sound.

Think about it from an audience perspective; 500 times Gin clapping? That's undefined and meaningless. 500 times the speed of sound? That's a concrete value, and explains why Ichigo freaks out.

 

[MillenniumSunny]

I disagree; Gin is explictly referring to the sound reaching Ichigo and saying it is 500 times faster than that. It would be incredibly random for Gin's Bankai to be 500 times faster than the speed that he can clap his hands together at, and not a more objective number like the speed of sound.

Think about it from an audience perspective; 500 times Gin clapping? That's undefined and meaningless. 500 times the speed of sound? That's a concrete value, and explains why Ichigo freaks out.

Being 500 times faster than Gin claps is way more terrifying because it’s taking a really quick motion and using that to put into perspective how fast the blade extension is

500 times faster than sound is relatively unimpressive by this point in the story even without using calcs, for reasoning above. Gin’s Bankai being the fastest Zanpakuto at Mach 500 while random unnamed guys have Zanpakuto confirmed at lightning speed just doesn’t make any sense

 

[Damage3245]

Being 500 times faster than Gin claps is way more terrifying because it’s taking a really quick motion and using that to put into perspective how fast the blade extension is

500 times faster than sound is relatively unimpressive by this point in the story even without using calcs, for reasoning above. Gin’s Bankai being the fastest Zanpakuto at Mach 500 while random unnamed guys have Zanpakuto confirmed at lightning speed just doesn’t make any sense

That scene with Tokinada and the lightning zanpakuto was written far after the Gin scene. At the time of the Gin scene being written, he didn't exist. The new information doesn't automatically retcon the previous information; it can simply be the case that Gin didn't know about this other Zanpakuto, or that it doesn't count towards his statement because it's not the speed of the fodder's Zanpakuto itself and just the speed of the projectile that he fires.

 

[MillenniumSunny]

That scene with Tokinada and the lightning zanpakuto was written far after the Gin scene. At the time of the Gin scene being written, he didn't exist. The new information doesn't automatically retcon the previous information; it can simply be the case that Gin didn't know about this other Zanpakuto, or that it doesn't count towards his statement because it's not the speed of the fodder's Zanpakuto itself and just the speed of the projectile that he fires.

Sure, but even then, the same Tokinada that blocks the lightning attack is relative to Shunsui who never got stronger and should therefore be much slower than Kamishini no Yari. Even if he WERE aim dodging, Ichigo couldn’t even consistently aim dodge Kamishini no Yari. Ichigo should be consistently above/relative to a guy that can at MINIMUM aim dodge lightning and yet can’t aim dodge Mach 500 apparently

 

[Random-Helper323]

I disagree; Gin is explictly referring to the sound reaching Ichigo and saying it is 500 times faster than that. It would be incredibly random for Gin's Bankai to be 500 times faster than the speed that he can clap his hands together at, and not a more objective number like the speed of sound.

I understand this perspective, but if I may, the reason it seems okay to me is first the translation from one of our Translation Helpers, and second because Bankai are essentially an amp, which has stats that increase based on the wielder's stats. The blade extending 500 times faster than Gin's own arm movements kind of lines up with that.

Maybe we should take a better look at that translation, since that's kind of the make it or break it of why I said it was okay. Without that translation I would have disagreed.

 

[Damage3245]

I understand this perspective, but if I may, the reason it seems okay to me is first the translation from one of our Translation Helpers, and second because Bankai are essentially an amp, which has stats that increase based on the wielder's stats. The blade extending 500 times faster than Gin's own arm movements kind of lines up with that.

Databooks can also be mistaken. Taking another look at the translation is worthwhile, but the manga is the highest priority source material.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Databooks can also be mistaken.

True.

Taking another look at the translation is worthwhile, but the manga is the highest priority source material.

I'm thinking this scene and the translation might both need to be looked over more.

 

[Mommyleona]

The whole disagreement with my thread was because Gin is lying about everything, with even databook info being deemed unreliable (since it mentions it being a decoy), so why exactly is this being used? :/

Some of this stuff is also wrong

Kamishini no Yari’s Mach 500 is the fastest zanpakuto in existence when zanpakuto that fire lightning which is confirmed to be ACTUALLY lightning speed literally exist and were in the hands of random fodder (it’s confirmed you would need to be fast enough to react to lightning or aim dodge to block it)

Zanpakuto producing lightning =/= the zanpakuto itself is that fast. Gin's zanpakuto being the fastest would fall under the whole "lie" umbrella too, no?

when Tokinada is capable of either blatantly reacting to or aim dodging lightning, and Soi Fon and Yoruichi can’t tell which

You yourself say he can just be predicting, ie aim dodging, so like..

Even Soul Society Ichigo’s speed is compared to lightning

Then why doesn't he scale to lightning speed? Probably because that's a very clear cut hyperbole?

Shinso, which should obviously be much slower than Kamishini no Yari, is described as lightning speed in CFYOW, and when used by a weaker wielder too.

it was stated in CFYOW!!

we do know for sure that there is at least a MINIMUM speed required to be called that by the novel, which is slower but still relative to regular lightning

very vague tbh, but pretty sure Candice's arrows are being treated like mach 290 I think, so that doesn't contradict anything

(Ginjo has trouble dodging the arrows, even though relative/weaker Fullbringers were able to react to Electrocution, which is “genuine lightning” and “near lightning speed” which should make it extremely close to lightning speed at minimum, and the arrows should be slower but not to a massive degree)

I mean none of this really helps, since Ichigo had also managed to just barely dodge Kamishini no Yari, actually this would be more of a support that mach 290 and higher are considered very fast for pretty much majority of the verse.

But more importantly, as i said, why are we now taking Gin's words as truth?

 

[Nierre]

Leona kinda took the words from my mouth but I personally disagree with using his statements at all, Im too busy today to restate my arguments but they're in Mommyleona's original thread. So count me as disagree.

 

[ItsMeat]

I should also restate my reasons for agreeing it's the movement of his palms

Not even mentioning that Gin holds his palms like he's taking a praying stance and if all he wanted was sound, there was no reason to move his palms so fast that Ichigo can't see them clearly. Not to mention the original raws of the manga also say "Did you get it?" rather than "Did you hear it?"

Gin did indeed lie about it tho

 

[Crobatman44]

I have my own issues with this thread outside of agreeing with mach 500 at the very least not being trustable,with really the only Kaminishi no Yari statement i now somewhat trust is Buto Renjin being X2 speed and order of magnitude stronger since it's unralated to anything that Gin actually said.
My main issue with this thread is that it sometimes uses stuff that is not accepted in the profiles at all atm as support like FKT Shunsui = TYBW Shunsui = CFYOW Shunsui which atm is not accepted fully.
And honestly any CRT that requires CFYOW as support should honestly be put on a slight break since Cour 4 could change everything there as well(since depending on what happens with a certain group of Sternritter part of the CFYOW plot no longer exists in it's current form).

 

[Arkenis]

So I just read the translation about the sword's speed. Is it not Kubo explaining it? How come this is unreliable?

 

[Slav]

I dont think we should take ''lightning-quick'' and ''lightning-fast'' literally. in the same novel candice is said to be slower than lightning btw

 

[Random-Helper323]

Mach 500 is definitely not a trustworthy number given all the other information we have.

 

[Saqphire]

Leona kinda took the words from my mouth but I personally disagree with using his statements at all, Im too busy today to restate my arguments but they're in Mommyleona's original thread. So count me as disagree.

You mean agree ? Cuz the thread is about removing the statements from being used

 

[Torsin]

Isnt the op saying the same thing? That Gins statement should be removed. Why are people arguing and agreeing with him?

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Cynically speaking, you could use Gin's Bankai to downscale Bleach significantly in terms of speed, and just say the inconsistencies are due to the aforementioned contradicting things just working differently in Bleach.

 

[Mommyleona]

You mean agree ? Cuz the thread is about removing the statements from being used

The thread is also about making it a 500x and 1000x multiplier instead

 

[Damage3245]

Isnt the op saying the same thing? That Gins statement should be removed. Why are people arguing and agreeing with him?

There are two closely related topics when it comes to Gin. It's:

1) Did Gin mean the speed of sound, or the speed of his moving hands, when he was explaining his Bankai to Ichigo?

2) Is Gin's statement of the multiplier (500x) reliable or not?

So someone might disagree with what's currently accepted and go for the new proposal which is the speed of Gin's hands instead of sound, but they might also disagree with the proposal to make Gin's Bankai a 500x multiplier on whatever speed his hands were moving at.

 

[Dalesean027]

I thought the disagreement from the last thread was simply disagreeing on the 500x sound bit not discarding everything he said as a whole but if we're treating everything he said as unreliable as a whole then I suppose this would turn up as a disagree for me then

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

Technically speaking, the only reliable things we know about Gin's Bankai are:
1. It's wicked fast.
2. It can extend extremely far.
3. It has some BS poison that also seems to negate regen with how quickly it killed Pre-Butterfly Aizen.

 

[Arkenis]

But the databook reaffirms that when he clapped he's talking about him clapping not the sound itself right? Or am I misreading.

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

But the databook reaffirms that when he clapped he's talking about him clapping not the sound itself right? Or am I misreading.

Apparently the databook is invalid as a source.

 

[Slav]

I think the guide simply messed up. The manga is very obviously reffering to it being 500 times sound.

 

[Arkenis]

....

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

I feel like this only feels weird because the HST are usually considered to be hovering around lightspeed or faster. Mach 500 is still ******* insane lol.

 

[Hasch]

The manga never said it was the sound, and the databook indeed says it's 500 times the speed of his hands.

Also the lie seems to be that the sword extends when it actually turns into poison dust and reforms.

You just can't trust fox eyed characters.

 

[Mommyleona]

The databook never reiterates the multiplier, it just has the manga panel of Gin saying it next to the explanation, Gin himself is still unreliable

Actually if we purely follow what the databook says, there is no multiplier at all, it literally just compares the speed to Gin clapping his hands with nothing else
"He likens the speed at which Kamishini no Yari extends and contracts to the speed of clapping his own hands"

 

[Arkenis]

The databook is telling us what Gin's referring to no? He likens the speed to him clapping, that's what the databook says. In manga he says its 500x. Where is the issue here?

 

[BloodyBloodwork365]

The databook is telling us what Gin's referring to no? He likens the speed to him clapping, that's what the databook says. In manga he says its 500x. Where is the issue here?

That the databooks are not reliable, to my understanding.
This thread is also clearly being done as a series/trend of re-evaluating Bleach's scaling in-general. The series will probably be the weakest of the Big 3 by a wide margin before the end of May lol