Important Naruto Speed Revision & Lightning Release Revision

[TataHakai]

Except the excerpt you're using would literally suggest that, as Gaara was apparently too slow for "supersonic attacks"

The entire excerpt is literally a case of death of the author, same thing with another novel apparently asking if Naruto could really be more than sound speed

@Xulrev

What are you talking about? We use the highest given statements/feats

For example if a character is Planetary, that character can technically be 8-B as they can destroy a building too, but we give them the highest value for their feat

If a character is Rel+ they can still be Supersonic as they are faster than sound speed, but we list them as Rel+ as that's their best feat

That's literally how it works, Damage's excerpt is nonsense, contradicts all scaling and doesn't even contradict the attacks being thousands of times faster than sound

Something being stated to be supersonic is proof that it's faster than mach 1 but not proof that it's slower than mach 5

This argument is the equivalent of someone saying "Flash was stated to be faster than light and despite having MFTL+ feats he should only be 1.1x FTL as that's faster than light"

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm confused, what exactly has been debunked here. Aren't the wiki rules to use baseline for statements unless it can be calculated?.

 

[Jvando]

Let me just put it out there.

In fiction, an inconsistency is when a character has an occurrence usually regarding power that differs from the norm. An inconsistency can work both ways, being either a low showing or a high showing. Generally, inconsistencies should not be accepted unless there is a good reason for it (such as a character who usually holds back on his or her full power).

Examples of Inconsistency:

• Goku being unable to lift 40 tons
• Master Roshi able to destroy the Moon in the 21st World Tournament when much stronger characters struggled to destroy cities and islands.
• Batman being able to fight evenly with characters far beyond his class.
• Silver Surfer being unable to dodge, and feeling pain from Storm's lightning bolt.
• Pre Crisis Superman being unable to defeat Karate Kid when PC Superman is far beyond his class.

Gaara barely being able to react to a supersonic attack is a huge inconsistency within the story when we have characters from Part 1 reacting to speed of sound attacks (Sasuke, anyone?) and even more characters who are calculated to be much faster, by certain calcs (Temari, anyone?)

Then don't even make me bring up Itachi and Kirin.

We don't take statements that are completely inconsistent to the showings so this shouldn't be considered to begin with.

 

[OrangeberrySama]

@TataHakai That's simply not true. Look at any source you want and they all state the same thing - that hypersonic is faster than supersonic. You're taking a broad definition literally. Look for yourself:


The limit of supersonic is Mach 5.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm going to have to head offline for now. As I've said - no changes are being proposed at this time. I understand a lot of people appear to be concerned and several have clear disagreements and valid points, but please just keep an open mind and realize that not everything is set in stone.

If downgrades don't happen, that's fine.

If downgrades end up needing to happen for the sake of accuracy, that should also be fine. Who cares what the actual results are so long as the best method is used to get them, right?

(This might be the point where someone jumps in and says "Damage, you downplayer! Your methods are terrible and you should feel bad!" But I strongly request that we avoid that. There's no need for hostility.)

 

[TheFinalOrder]

This statement can truly be dismissed. Even as far back as the Chunin Exams way back in Part 1 (And throughout Part 1 as a whole) it's established through feats that Ninja are well beyond Supersonic.

@Damage, even your Temari calc established this. Clearly it makes no sense for Kazekage Gaara to be tagged by anything Supersonic.

What's been portrayed over 700+ Chapters > This one single Statement.

 

[Damage3245]

@TheFinalOrder; technically speaking Gaara not being able to react to it and the kunai / wind release / lightning release being supersonic are two different statements.

 

[TataHakai]

But it's still relevant to the conversation as Occam's razor suggests that it simply couldn't have been that slow and have Gaara react to it

Either it's not mach 1.1 or Gaara can't react to mach 1.1, the second one is an impossibility as we have dozens upon dozens of calcs and statements above mach 1.1

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Well in that statement it seems Gaara was handicapped somewhat since he had only one hand. But aren't these separate statements? If you assume the statement about Gaara is wrong based on feats sure, but how does that disprove the statement regarding raiton in general?

 

[Paul_Frank]

The Gaara part could just be an outlier you know

That doesn't make the other statement false

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

What Paul Frank said. I don't recall any other statements regarding raiton except that Kirin is faster.

 

[Damage3245]

@Tata, I'm not saying the kunai is undeniably Mach 1.1 but using any value for it from Gaara's speed rating would lead to calc-stacking later down the line, and assuming it is at least baseline supersonic is standard practice as a reasonable / lowball assumption.

 

[AstralKing7]

Well in that statement it seems Gaara was handicapped somewhat since he had only one hand. But aren't these separate statements? If you assume the statement about Gaara is wrong based on feats sure, but how does that disprove the statement regarding raiton in general?

Ratio varies man what r u talking about??? Damage didn't know that which makes his whole argument useless when the statement could have been talking about any lightning style jutsu that doesn't mean lightning standards like the ball lightning or Kakashis lightning style jutsu

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7, no offence but that has nothing to do with my argument. I am plainly aware that jutsu can be different speeds.

 

[AstralKing7]

Damage it's compared to wind style not just lightning style and your purposely ignoring that everytime u jsut say lightning style and you can't say your not ignoring it because you are focused only on raiton which is obvious

If you are comparing it to raiton in the first place it's still a problem because each raiton jutsu varies jsut like fuuton and any other jutsu where it's not depending on the users speed

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@TheFinalOrder; technically speaking Gaara not being able to react to it and the kunai / wind release / lightning release being supersonic are two different statements.

Actually, it's related. The Kunai being being stated to be Supersonic is debunked by prior feats spanning years.

This statement links the speed of Wind Style and Lightning Style to this Kunai's speed (Sure, at a Bade Level likely) with the preposition being it's moving at Supersonic Speeds but if anything being Supersonic tagging or being implied to tag Gaara has already been debunked in Manga years prior and consistently at that, that means the preposition is wrong.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Astral

it clearly says lightning style in general, not a certain jutsu.

 

[OrangeberrySama]

@AstralKing7 It says "that of wind or lightning release", a general, all-encompassing statement that applies to any jutsu that would have a movement speed. There's no going around this.

But I'm off now, argue amongst yourselves.

 

[Jvando]

The entire problem with this is Feats vs Statements.

Do we take established feats from years on end? Or do we go with a single statement? TFO has already explained why this Kunai speed is just plain wrong.

If someone is stated to attack with a force of 8 tons of TNT for example and he injured someone who, thought the entire series run, has been shown to have planetary levels of durability, do we take that one statement and suddenly apply it to everything?

No, because it's called an inconsistency and shouldn't be used.

This is the same thing as Dyspo's LS statement.

This is the same thing with Goku barely even being able to lift 40 tons.

This is the same thing as Silver Super being hurt by a lighting bolt from Storm and being unable to avoid it. I suppose he's only Lighting speed now too huh?

 

[Damage3245]

@Jvando, I believe many of the existing feats to be wrong. I'm currently working on a way of explaining it, so I must request some time for that.

 

[AstralKing7]

@Astral

it clearly says lightning style in general, not a certain jutsu.

And not all lightning style jutsus are the same which u obviously aren't understanding because it also said wind style and we don't rate every wind style jutsu the same.

Like seriously do u not understand that Borutos rasengan that he killed Momoshiki with had his chakra nature infused in it???? A wind style jutsu like that reaches space in seconds. That's why we can use the statement when each jutsu varies

 

[TataHakai]

Ah yes in no time we will have "Narutoverse is only mach 1.1 and City level because i can pull out random inconsistencies and act like they are gods law even though they are contradicted by every possible thing and don't even make sense in terms of the argument i was making prior"

Damage was the guy Arguing that all lightning jutsu can't be the same speed, now he's arguing that all lightning jutsu are the same speed

Nice to know you don't actually care enough about your arguments to keep track of what you're saying Damage

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Astral

which lightining release jutsu has a stated speed?

 

[Damage3245]

Tata, I'm sure you're joking but the first part of your post is literally a Strawman's Argument.

Please try to be a bit respectful. I know you don't agree with me, but politeness isn't too much to ask.

You should know I'm clearly not arguing all lightning jutsu has to be the same speed.

 

[Xulrev]

Damage was the guy Arguing that all lightning jutsu can't be the same speed, now he's arguing that all lightning jutsu are the same speed

Nice to know you don't actually care enough about your arguments to keep track of what you're saying Damage

It's weird, it's almost like Damage is a rational and open-minded debater who accepts new evidence and examines it, showcasing a willingness to alter his stance based on the veracity of that evidence.

Really it's a bit pitiable that such a stance is made mockery of, and from such a longstanding member of the wiki.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I mean he just learned about that statement and decided to share it.

 

[AstralKing7]

@Jvando, I believe many of the existing feats to be wrong. I'm currently working on a way of explaining it, so I must request some time for that.

>>Request time

>>dead staff only Naruto thread

Your not only working on Naruto but your also tied up with other verses. You don't have any time to make us wait man. Just post your problems now because if there were some u could post them instead of buying time find a so called problem bro

 

[TataHakai]

What are you talking about? @Xulrev

If you didn't understand my point please re read it, i literally said nothing about the new inormation but about Damage's outlook on the speed situation of Jutsu

He didn't want all Lightning jutsu to be considered the same speed when it was mach 1.2k but suddenly when it's mach 1.1 he wants all Lightning jutsu to be considered the same speed, this is literally ridicolous and teetering on the edges of bias

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That's because the statement says lighting style in general is roughly that speed, nothing to do with bias honestly. Just reading and understanding the statement for what it is.

 

[Jvando]

Regardless, it doesn't matter.

Until you can somehow "explain" how that statement is consistency in Naruto (Good luck with Kirin, MHS part 1 characters and a whole slew of other things which you yourself calced), then said statement is pointless.

What you should have done was note it and explain how it is consistent within the context of the story. All you've done is show us an inconsistency that affects absolutely nothing and likely will never matter.

This is as much evidence as a statement saying Goku could only lift 40 tons.

Or that someone's lighting is only 8 gigajoules

There is nothing more to discuss until clear concrete evidence is given to explain how this could ever be consistent.

 

[Damage3245]

@TataHaki, I believe I've been consistent that I doubt any ordinary lightning release jutsu travels at average natural lightning speed.

 

[AstralKing7]

It's weird, it's almost like Damage is a rational and open-minded debater who accepts new evidence and examines it, showcasing a willingness to alter his stance based on the veracity of that evidence.

Really it's a bit pitiable that such a stance is made mockery of, and from such a longstanding member of the wiki.


Fact of the matter is he is still trying to make them all the same speed while accepting that they vary. Do u literally not see the problem or will u Lee ignoring it?

 

[Damage3245]

Astralking7, you keep misrepresenting me. Stop trying to make my arguments for me.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Jvando

pretty sure Goku has unknown lifting strength since it's never consistent.

also what other statements regarding raiton exist in Naruto regarding speed except it's slower then Kirin?

 

[Jvando]

It's weird, it's almost like Damage is a rational and open-minded debater who accepts new evidence and examines it, showcasing a willingness to alter his stance based on the veracity of that evidence.

Yes, a statement that is contradicted by every other showing in the manga is so completely solid.

Wow, I'm now completely (sarcasm) convinced that gaara is now barely Mach 1.1 because that piece of evidence is really really powerful. I suppose I can forget about the consistency and scaling of the entire verse because of a single statement. I'm very open minded as well.

 

[Xulrev]

@Tata

You obviously did not understand what my statement was alluding to, and you are projecting biases onto Damage which he has never shown; his objections are based in evidence and rational argumentation, and he showcases a willingness to alter his stance when shown sufficient proof.

Don't impugn the validity of his argumentation as such.

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando

pretty sure Goku has unknown lifting strength since it's never consistent.

also what other statements regarding raiton exist in Naruto regarding speed except it's slower then Kirin?

The statement about Gaara and the statement about the kunai speed aren't mutually exclusive. You either accept none or both of them.

If you accept none, then they can be ignored.

If you accept both, then now you have inconsistencies which don't make sense, until of course someone can explain Mach 1.1 Gaara away. Be my guest on that front.

Till then, that statement doesn't matter and you obviously missed my point about the inconsistencies. Goku is just one of the many examples I used.

 

[Xulrev]

Yes, a statement that is contradicted by every other showing in the manga is so completely solid.

Wow, I'm now completely (sarcasm) convinced that gaara is now barely Mach 1.1 because that piece of evidence is really really powerful. I suppose I can forget about the consistency and scaling of the entire verse because of a single statement. I'm very open minded as well.

Sarcasm aside, no singular piece of objectively-stated evidence should be tossed out due to 'well all our other calcs don't fit with this piece of evidence.'

A re-examination of other evidence in light of the objective statement is simple and sufficient enough to dismiss the statement if the validity of said other evidence is strong enough to hold under the weight of the statment. That's how the wiki operates: new evidence brought to light is examined, and if it calls itno question other evidence we re-evaluate and see if any glaring errors exist.

I do not understand why people are getting so upset over this. If the other evidence is well-founded then it should speak for itself and not need an angry mob to deter such evaluation.

 

[The_Causality]

Ehh what a thread...

Anyway, if a single statement said that something is slower than many other feats and calcs from a verse, he isn't counted as an evidence but more as an inconsistency.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Jvando

How on earth does this counter the only statement in existence from Naruto that gives us the speed of lightning style in general?

Theyre 2 separate things, we learn the speed of the lightning style and nowhere does it say that's one armed Gaara is slower or anything. It just says his auto defenses took care of it while he was carrying a girl.

To say the speed statement is inaccurate you need another statement regarding the speed of raiton.