I'm Feeling Funny Today (Touhou Downgrade)

[OnsokunoSonic]

Simple, downgrade the Transduality because:

1. The only staff that agree is Elizhaa who he/she admits that he/she isn't knowledgeable on Transduality.
2. Predating concepts doesn't mean transcending it.

Scans? I will provide it if needed.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I agree the definition of predating doesn’t line up with transcending but I’m not knowledgeable about the CRTs happening for the verse.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I agree the definition of predating doesn’t line up with transcending but I’m not knowledgeable about the CRTs happening for the verse.

It happened here and here, basically we're debating if predating concepts=transcending it. Yes they will be unaffected if reality and it's concepts collapsed but that's because of their nonexistence. The staff that agreed on it, is only one and that's Elizhaa, who admitted that he/she doesn't know much about Transduality itself. There's no good reason to keep their TD, therefore it should be downgraded.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I can’t comment on Transduality itself, but the term predating is “existing before” not “existing beyond”.

Could you summarize the argument for Predating to = Transcending?

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Could you summarize the argument for Predating to = Transcending?

We basically said that the deities won't be affected by the destruction of the Multiverse and it's concepts, but that's because they're nonexistence, there's actually no statement or quote supporting the deities transcending the dualities IIRC.

 

[Pixy]

Following so I'll not miss something

 

[ElixirBlue]

We basically said that the deities won't be affected by the destruction of the Multiverse and it's concepts, but that's because they're nonexistence

Well, I do agree being nonexistent is enough to not be effected by destruction of the multiverse and its concepts. Stumped my Archie Sonic debates when he was put up against nonexistent beings.

 

[Vietthai96]

Predating a concept doesn't mean Transduality, you need to be stated to transcended, beyond, unbound a dual system to qualify and that dual system should be the opposite to each other. Like existent (1) and nonexistent (0), negative and positive, cause and effect. Predating concept grant you immunity to the concept you are stated to predating, or at best grant you nonexistent physiology due to lacking the concept that needed for one's existent depend on context

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Hey everyone~
So first I'll give what Mokou said.

Gonna have to disagree here. The reasons we're currently using for transduality are wrong, that much I agree with. But I believe there is still a case to be made for it.

In CoLA, it's explained that when a name is given to something, it creates a border.

As for what borders are, as explained in PMiSS, they are essentially the building blocks of reality that allow everything to exist. Furthermore, there is a boundary between all things, even abstract concepts like life and death or master and slave.

So names are the same as boundaries, and since boundaries establish the duality the verse is built on, so do names. This is important, as gods are explicitly stated to lack names. Therefore, gods get transduality due to lacking any concept of duality in the first place.

Wish I could explain better but this is not my area of expertise :v

And now me~
I also disagree with the revision. Mokou's wasn't the only scan stating they are nameless entities and ones who retain their nameless form can only possess objects from before things that were named (i.e Izanagi Objects that were unnamed) and Rinnosuke who can see names cannot "identify" a nameless object because they're unbound by the conceptual system used to build the world.

To explain this a bit more, Junko, has the power to "purify" something to a point where it can become nameless and thus is like "giving birth to a god". And this is important because in her SCoOW profile her ability is described as "bringing out" the pure energy of something implying they are in a state above concepts and the systems used to define it.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Gonna have to disagree here. The reasons we're currently using for transduality are wrong, that much I agree with. But I believe there is still a case to be made for it.

In CoLA, it's explained that when a name is given to something, it creates a border.

As for what borders are, as explained in PMiSS, they are essentially the building blocks of reality that allow everything to exist. Furthermore, there is a boundary between all things, even abstract concepts like life and death or master and slave.

So names are the same as boundaries, and since boundaries establish the duality the verse is built on, so do names. This is important, as gods are explicitly stated to lack names. Therefore, gods get transduality due to lacking any concept of duality in the first place.

Wish I could explain better but this is not my area of expertise :v

Yes, I understand that lacks name=lacks duality, that much I agree with. But they don't transcend/beyond the dualities, they lack dualities, not beyond them. Thus is why we don't give 1-A to NEP characters that lacks the concept of dimension @FujiwaraYesMokou

And now me~
I also disagree with the revision. Mokou's wasn't the only scan stating they are nameless entities and ones who retain their nameless form can only possess objects from before things that were named (i.e Izanagi Objects that were unnamed) and Rinnosuke who can see names cannot "identify" a nameless object because they're unbound by the conceptual system used to build the world.

To explain this a bit more, Junko, has the power to "purify" something to a point where it can become nameless and thus is like "giving birth to a god". And this is important because in her SCoOW profile her ability is described as "bringing out" the pure energy of something implying they are in a state above concepts and the systems used to define it.

1. Rinnosuke cannot identify a nameless object because Rinnosuke can't comprehend being that paradoxically exist (A.K.A Paradox Nonexistence). Izanagi objects doesn't proof anything, you can try to explain it better tho.
2. It doesn't imply anything, being stated like a god doesn't indicate that they transcend the concepts.
   

 

[Vietthai96]

How is lack a name = lack duality, name is abstract only not duality

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

How is lack a name = lack duality, name is abstract only not duality

It's a different case in 2hu here, so uh yeah.

Well, I do agree being nonexistent is enough to not be effected by destruction of the multiverse and its concepts. Stumped my Archie Sonic debates when he was put up against nonexistent beings.

I feel your pain man. It sucks to have him get stumped by Graham and stuff

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Rinnosuke cannot identify a nameless object because Rinnosuke can't comprehend being that paradoxically exist (A.K.A Paradox Nonexistence). Izanagi objects doesn't proof anything, you can try to explain it better tho.

That is on you to prove onsokuno
Rinnosuke has the ability to identify things with a name, with a border. It's not about incomprehensibility, it's about perception, they are imperceptible because due to being in a state of no distinctions . Not because they are paradoxical.
The idea for izanagi objects was just secondary evidence that things that are nameless have no conceptual restriction to them due to qualitatively existing in a pure state where the conceptual system cannot define them.

It doesn't imply anything, being stated like a god doesn't indicate that they transcend the concepts.

My friend, simply saying "it doesn't imply anything" would not be rebuttal to the argument. Plus the hyperlink I gave explicitly states:
"Thing A has a godly nature which Junko can bestow that nature onto others"
It quite literally is regarded as a state beyond conception where they're able to shape it and define it as they like due to being creating it in the first place, not because they merely lack it.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Rinnosuke has the ability to identify things with a name, with a border. It's not about incomprehensibility, it's about perception, they are imperceptible because due to being in a state of no distinctions .

Rinnosuke cannot comprehend them because he has no information (due to being boundless/conceptless) on it, and also because they don't anything that distinct them.

Not because they are paradoxical.
The idea for izanagi objects was just secondary evidence that things that are nameless have no conceptual restriction to them due to qualitatively existing in a pure state where the conceptual system cannot define them.

Yet we see Reimu and Marisa identifying the object just fine. The humans cannot comprehend them still doesn't proof transcendence my bro.

My friend, simply saying "it doesn't imply anything" would not be rebuttal to the argument. Plus the hyperlink I gave explicitly states:
"Thing A has a godly nature which Junko can bestow that nature onto others"
It quite literally is regarded as a state beyond conception where they're able to shape it and define it as they like due to being creating it in the first place, not because they merely lack it.

It doesn't imply anything to transcendence is what I'm saying. And about the bolded nature part, what're you trying to explain here?

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Rinnosuke cannot comprehend them because he has no information on it

Yeah that's not paradoxical, which is the main point. It's not incomprehensibility like I said it's perception. He even makes an analogy like this for a named object.

Yet we see Reimu and Marisa identifying the object just fine. The humans cannot comprehend them still doesn't proof transcendence my bro.

No no, you're just not understanding the argument :3, the reason Marisa and Reimu identify the object is because those objects they are defining (the cards and the yin yang orb) are already defined but are made of that nature. Also note that dragon gems are not identified here as anything other than a dragon gem, so we can't use that a contradictory notation. So again, humans cannot explicitly define an izanagi object due to it holding a value beyond concepts in a superior manner.

Even rinnosuke states in order to see the nature of one it'd be like using the power of the gods without permission.

It doesn't imply anything to transcendence is what I'm saying. And about the bolded nature part, what're you trying to explain here?

I'm trying to explain, it isn't simply "lacking" dualities, it's an inherent "existence" that holds its value due to it (by functionality) being conceptually beyond it's restrictions. Gods, have this nature, and thus due to creating them, being able to shape it any way they like, and explicitly being in a state above the conception and dualities, they should keep the power.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Yeah that's not paradoxical, which is the main point. It's not incomprehensibility like I said it's perception. He even makes an analogy like this for a named object.

I was referring to NEP nature type 3, not the actual thing lmao.

I'm trying to explain, it isn't simply "lacking" dualities, it's an inherent "existence" that holds its value due to it (by functionality) being conceptually beyond it's restrictions. Gods, have this nature, and thus due to creating them, being able to shape it any way they like, and explicitly being in a state above the conception and dualities, they should keep the power.

I have never seen a scan that signify dualities transcendence, If you can explain it in a way that I can understand so that it signify transcendence, I will hear it out.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

If you can explain it in a way that I can understand so that it signify transcendence, I will hear it out.

Ok so, names in touhou are boundaries. (As stated in the Takemkazuchi no mikoto scan.) So, all boundaries have opposites to the other, such as Matter and antimatter, or something like dreams and reality. Due to this, because they not only created and define the dualities as they want, they explicitly state they are, by their existential nature, beyond the system of human understanding (qualitative superiority), and have no dualistic properties themself (state of being). Hence forth, we can translate the context to:
They are in higher state of being, where dualities cannot define them nor are they bound by its nature, or the notation of concepts as a whole. In which the world of touhou is defined by boundaries and thus dualistic properties therefore having transduality type 2.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

They are in higher state of being, where dualities cannot define them nor are they bound by its nature, or the notation of concepts as a whole. In which the world of touhou is defined by boundaries and thus dualistic properties therefore having transduality type 2.

Unable to be defined doesn't indicate transcendence, it can work for supporting evidence but it can't be the main evidence.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

It doesn’t need to be labeled as transcendence. It just needs to be implied to be a deeper (or higher) ontological state of being (remember ontology is nature of being) that we can deductively reason out to be a general superiority to dualities.

 

[Vietthai96]

Deeper ontological doesn't mean anything to duality transduality, by the name itself is transcend the duality, it is about you not being bound by a dual distinction, everything is one and one is also everything, the state of oneness

 

[Guardian_Doge]

Deeper ontological doesn't mean anything to duality transduality, by the name itself is transcend the duality, it is about you not being bound by a dual distinction, everything is one and one is also everything, the state of oneness

That's not a refute, the transduality page states

“state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, and qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from very specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level.”

I have satisfied these conditions already. Being Nameless means you are ontologically beyond the conceptual system which not only defines concepts but directly notes that the world is built on dualistic properties. Being ontologically superior to something is equally as qualitative as being transcendental. Ask mods on this like Ogbunali and they will tell you something similar if not outright the same.

So again, since it feels like I’m repeating myself.
Primordial Gods exists in a direct nature that is both independent and ontologically superior to dual oppositions at a conceptual and general level.

Henceforth qualifies as type 2.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm only refute to the general idea of using deeper ontological for the use of being Transdual evidences. Also stop nitpicking the word conceptual

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I’m not nitpicking anything. I put together an entire explanation and multiple scans of context in which I fulfilled my burden of proving. If it sounds illogical to you then I can only suggest you contact someone with knowledge regarding this subject.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I strongly agree with Doge here.

That being said, if this downgrade does go through, what exactly would lacking dualities grant if not transduality?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Where does "predating" come into play here?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't, I don't think any of Doge's explanations have mentioned that.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

I have satisfied these conditions already. Being Nameless means you are ontologically beyond the conceptual system which not only defines concepts but directly notes that the world is built on dualistic properties. Being ontologically superior to something is equally as qualitative as being transcendental. Ask mods on this like Ogbunali and they will tell you something similar if not outright the same.

This could be higher level of NEP tho?

Where does "predating" come into play here?

Predating means that they're nameless. A.K.A Unbounded by dualities.

I can only suggest you contact someone with knowledge regarding this subject.

I think this is better.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Bumparoo

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Lacking dualities should be textbook transduality. Honestly, the page should probably be renamed to Non-Duality, since not all characters who are unbound by dual system transcend them, but at the end of the day it's the same kind of physiology. A non-dual character that is neither existent nor nonexistent would have Type 2 NEP, as well as a transdual one transcending those dualities. The end result is basically the same.

 

[Vietthai96]

Currently Transdual still in the process of revising

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Lacking dualities should be textbook transduality. Honestly, the page should probably be renamed to Non-Duality, since not all characters who are unbound by dual system transcend them, but at the end of the day it's the same kind of physiology. A non-dual character that is neither existent nor nonexistent would have Type 2 NEP, as well as a transdual one transcending those dualities. The end result is basically the same.

Source?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Source?

Idealistic Nonexistence: The character doesn't exist in a sense further beyond conventional nonexistence. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence. Characters of this type often have some low degree of Transduality due to their lack of binary existence.

So yeah, per current standards, lack of duality = transduality

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

So yeah, per current standards, lack of duality = transduality

Doesn't that sounds like NEP2? Also, I'm planning to remove their type 2 transdual, not only 1 transduality.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Yes? If you lack the duality of existence-nonexistence it is both transduality and NEP2, as the page says. If you lack the duality of cause-effect it's transduality and acausality. So on and so forth.

 

[OnsokunoSonic]

Yes? If you lack the duality of existence-nonexistence it is both transduality and NEP2, as the page says. If you lack the duality of cause-effect its transduality and acausality. So on and so forth.

Hmm I now understand what are you trying to say, and what everyone is trying to say, should this thread be closed then?