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Ikki's fights, skills and character.

It depends on how you define skill. The actual definition is expertise, how well you do something. What Ikki does I believe are just superhuman capablilities, of course he got some SKILL if he really mastered so many swordplay techniques, but as someone who was interested in swordsmanship and fencing for a good while I can tell this is not really pure skill, no matter what you call it. If Ikki seriously defeated his perfect clones, that's not skill, that's stupidity and bad writing.
 
SpookyShadow said:
Also sorry but I laughed at >Yeah, just more tons of pretty words
Because I think that's Rakudai fight writing
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Not really, rakudai doesn't excuse it's skill with "he's very skilled, he did this this and this and that's why he's the most skilled of them all".

It takes the non lazy way and says "Ikki is skilled, he can learn any style in seconds with a mere glance at the stance" "he can understand a person's thought pattern and predict every action he will make". Stuff like this is skill. Just saying "he beat armies" is not skill. The only time the army feat was used was for Edelweiss and it wasn't a skill feat, it was meant to be a feat of her being so strong that the biggest armies of the world couldn't stop her so they just stopped trying to catch her.

That's the difference between actual shown skill and pretty words. Shown skill has visible effects in fights, pretty words don't they just end somewhere along the lines of "he won via being far more skilled".
 
Uhh... In the most skilled swordmaster thread thingy, you attributed Ikki getting desperado stuff as a skill feat. Also I believe a few other times that I can't remember right now.

And that's not really comparable. Its willpower for Ikki because fate literally sets a limit in Rakudai. That's not a mechanic that exists in Dark Souls.
 
@Earl

I didn't mean they are Star Level themselves but they did a Star level feat by going through something that makes Hell look like a joke. Way full of Eldritch abominations, reality mockeries etc, starting as a human like you and I just to reach such level to actually defeat them and going so far.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
But.. That's not skill. That's pure willpower. Last I saw, Desperados are born when someone reaches the maxt potential granted to them by the world and then someone keeps pushing.
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That sounds exactly like "breaking your limiter" in One-Punch man, no joke.

Desesperado key for Saitama/Garou when?
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Uhh... In the most skilled swordmaster thread thingy, you attributed Ikki getting desperado stuff as a skill feat. Also I believe a few other times that I can't remember right now.
And that's not really comparable. Its willpower for Ikki because fate literally sets a limit in Rakudai. That's not a mechanic that exists in Dark Souls.
Click to expand...
Well ikki's desperado is skill, not the awakening. It's growing past the set limits by fate that is skill. So he achieved desperado, now he can grows past what his fate allows. Something like, opening the door isn't moving, but getting past the door is.

>Not a mechanics in Dark Souls

>That's why going from 10-B to 4-C via training is skill

Breaking fate isn't a mechanics, going from 10-B to 4-C is though.
 
The thing is, in DS mostly those who linked the first flame were immortal. They reach enough growth to be capable of fighting Star level characters, as they absorb more souls. They can't actually destroy a Star but they can indeed damage a Star level character. Ashen One is physically hilariously weaker than those he fights (that's why he gets few-shotted with armor on) but can damage them and fights them with tactics and strategy.
 
Yeah, that's just increasing his abilities to harm them. Why do you think DS was said to be one of the hardest series ever? Because it's not Skyrim or Morrowind with rushing at enemy but you have to actually think. It's different than novel where everything is described beautifuly with so many details, and it's written by some guy. But in DS Lore, other Champions had to do things far worse and there were no game mechanics to help them. For thousands of years.
 
Forced to have your consciousness fight in every war in history one after the other and solve it via slaughter by your lonesome. Every time you die you reset. Every time you get through them all, you reset. You have your mind wiped every reset so you don't recognize patterns, but the instinct stays. The people behind this rinse and repeat until you're a killing machine. You've been through hundreds of thousands of resets, but to the people on the outside, it's only been two years.
 
Also as shown by the Soul of Cinder, the souls carry with them the skills of those who had them. It manifests abilities of the protags across the other games, as well as Gwyn.
 
Growing past has literally nothing to do with skill. Is just his normal training. Of course you can get better if Fate decides how strong you can be and you break past that. Growing another level after breaking the level cap is not any more skill than how he trained his skills to be better before he hit his full potential.
 
I don't think they forget their memories when they reset, unless you mean how each time they hollow they're closer and closer to losing their mind. Unless you were referring to not dark souls.
 
Yeah but absorbing more souls just means he gets unquantifiably better. If none of those absorbed souls have any good feats. Similar to why we don't treat omniscience as the peak of skill. Besides the fact that knowledge is not always the ability to do something, but it's always limited to what the verse shows in terms of skill.
 
Ah yes, all of dark souls is unquantifiable. 10/10 good take much less rigid than CPR
 
I meant absorbing more souls. Beating a bunch of dudes etc. They are just people getting better than other people in verse. It's like giving a tier based on circular scaling without calc to start the scaling.
 
Ikki's skill is like those "super smart" dudes who build time machines with bubble gum and wooden sticks. At some point it's all nonsense.
 
Beating a bunch of dudes is very much a skill feat, earl. Fighting groups as 1 person is waaay more difficult than you'd think.
 
Wokistan said:
Beating a bunch of dudes is very much a skill feat, earl. Fighting groups as 1 person is waaay more difficult than you'd think.
Click to expand...
Yeah. Not quantifiable.

Can those dudes perform any of Ikki's skill feats?

The answer? No, you can't argue that cus they have no concrete feats.

What you're saying is:

X verse has no feats of AP that can be calced. But Y beat an army of X's, that's why Y is 6-B in AP.

Fighting groups as 1 person is hard but many things play a factor, including the average skill level of the person you beat along with compatibility, knowledge on the match ups and more.

Ikki toyed with an entire army while not even paying attention to the fights and being careful not to hurt them. It's not a skill feat cus he just beat them all, meaning he's much more skilled, but none of the soldiers had any skill feats, you don't see me saying "those were all massively trained soldiers who were the absolute strongest of the country having trained for ages". Cus that's all unquantifiable.
 
Earl, skill isn't some numerical quality. There is no real skill feats that are "quantifiable". The bit about them being super trained and the strongest of their country is something I'd see as far more concrete than "ikki can do CPR and cut at concepts".
 
Earl, at this point I just have one question: How do you quantify skill? I haven't seen a single quantity being mentioned here.
 
I think the maximum amount of people that can fight you at any one time is 6 or was it 7?

Anyways fighting an army is more of a stamina feat than a skill feat unless one of these 3 points is fulfilled; every single person in the army can at any point attack either from range or cq (the latter is impossible), the added possibility of one stray bullet/attack luckily hitting the MC thus killing him and their skill level being on par or superior to the mc.

I think an inception type of setting with overlapping or twisting space sort of setting would work where there is no differentiation between the sky and the ground.
 
The mere fact that you would need to keep track of everyone so that no one catches you off guard, especially when there is more than 7 dudes and the moment one is down another can take his place, not having the same pace nor the same fighting mindset as the dude you just knocked down, does make it much more difficult than a mere stamina issue. Plus in the wonderful world of fiction where you can see a dozen steps ahead just by looking at someone, a desorganized fighting force is potentially way worse as there's no rhythm to follow and read - there's just being aware of everything and adapting on the fly.
 
Muchacho mrm said:
I think the maximum amount of people that can fight you at any one time is 6 or was it 7
Click to expand...
This heavily depends on what exactly the fight is and standpoint both sides are on.

There was British Gurkha that defeated 15 Taliban soldiers by himself with his Gun running out of ammo after the second, and then using a knife to kill the others.
 
I think he means that even if you are surrounded by 100 people, only 6 to 7 can do anything to you at any moment because they can't all squeeze around each other and attack at the same time.
 
I'd attribute that to supernatural sense + calculation speed. How far this is depends on the character, perhaps the character is even aware of every single person's movement or limited to the people he/she is currently engaged with, mindset really doesn't matter if your 'skill' level isn't on par. Also there is a huge difference between being aware and moving based on that info, either way not really a skill feat if you aren't blindly moving based on 'skill'. I guess you can call that predictive effect of the above a skill feat, hopefully it's consistent as in, every other fight he/she is in is more than a stomp instead of the 'overcoming' hardship type of setting.

A desorganized force isn't much of a problem at some point the character experiences most if not all the possible combinations thrown at them due to everyone's limited movement, if you meant attacks with no 'brains' behind them then they'll get culled like the beast they are.

This is even more so if there is a difference in speed. [Attached Image.]
 
Wokistan said:
Earl, skill isn't some numerical quality. There is no real skill feats that are "quantifiable". The bit about them being super trained and the strongest of their country is something I'd see as far more concrete than "ikki can do CPR and cut at concepts".
Click to expand...
It is not, it's just giving examples. Your logic is saying, if we both attend the same school, we'll be both just as smart by the end...just no. Or another example would be:

X is the best student of math in New York

Y can solve z problem which is regarded to be very hard.

X is unquantifiable. Cus the rest of his school can literally be people who're repeating a grade for the 7th time and he'd still be the best. While Y has actual feats of "he can solve hard problems like z", you cannot reasonably say "X is better than Y because X is the best of his city while Y is just average".

That's the difference of "im the best of everyone and everyone combined" yes but did any of those guys do anything at all besides having pretty words on their grades? Can those guys perfom the skill feats Ikki does volume 1? Can they copy the entire phylosophy, ideas and history of a sword style in a few minutes (let alone by looking at the stance)? Can they perfect a style in a matter of seconds?

You can't answer any of those questions, because the best you have is "he's skilled". In a fight your argument remains the same "He's skilled" a hollow argument.

This is why they are just pretty words, and not skill. The argument is just the same pretty word stated several times.
 
Ionliosite said:
Earl, at this point I just have one question: How do you quantify skill? I haven't seen a single quantity being mentioned here.
Click to expand...
I quantify skill through feats.

That is really the only way. The best example here would be

Nanami Yasuri vs Ikki Kurogane

Nanami to copy a style needs to see it twice. She understands the basics in the 1st look and then makes it hers with the 2nd look (iirc this is the case, may be wrong). Ikki however can simply just look at the stance and understand moves he has never even seen before.

So in terms of copying, ikki is far more skilled, by feats.

However if we assume Ikki can only do that, while Nanami can apply abilities of other weapons on her weapon (example apply spear techniques on swords, or dagger techniques on tonfas idk), then in this regard she is more skilled than Ikki.

So Ikki outdoes her in one direction, she outdoes ikki in another direction. So we can just assume they are about equal in skill from this. This is how the feats are quantified (at least how i quantify them) and the only way i believe it can be quantified.

Cus at the end of the day, skill is "what can you do in a fight?" not "how many pretty words do you have on your bio".
 
SpookyShadow said:
> skill is "what can you do in a fight?"
More like "the ability to do something well; expertise."
Click to expand...
Pretty much, but "how well can you do things in a fight", since this is fighting skill.

None of the "lived for 4 trillion years" actually show what can he do in an actual combat scenario
 
I think they can do well after seeing countless of techniques, sword pirouette's, styles etc.

Imagine fighting for "4 trillion years". Do you think that's a little number or something?
 
The fork is this thread

>talk about worm

>Climb beating Ainz

>Kirito being a good protagonist
 
SpookyShadow said:
I think they can do well after seeing countless of techniques, sword pirouette's, styles etc.
Imagine fighting for "4 trillion years". Do you think that's a little number or something?
Click to expand...
It's not a small number, it's an useless number.

"Seeing countless techniques"

Those techniques being...?

"Styles"

Those styles being...?

If there were actual techniques and styles they have shown to learn then i'll gladly argue on how good would those be in a skill fight. Big numbers aren't enough. You can spend 3 trillion years as a composite human, you're not reaching Ikki at any point in your life. Cus Ikki did in 3 years what all of humanity has ever been able to reach or will ever be able to reach. That's why numbers are useless.
 
Anyways, Ikki's skill comes at no consequence of character. He's not some special, skilled underdog. He's what a five year old thinks a skilled fighter is.

And yes, I agree that Kirito is actually a good protagonist in comparison. That should tell you enough.
 
Moritzva said:
He's what a five year old thinks a skilled fighter is.
Click to expand...
I mean it's just your opinion on the rest, im a bit curious on this "what they think a skilled fighter is". What do you mean exactly?
 
I could write an essay on that, but let's start with what isn't a skilled fighter:

Dumb, ham-fisted PIS feats of killing clones by having them run into your blades and shit.
 
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