Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou Reality-Fiction stuff continued

[Lormac_CC]

My purpose was to explain why the term story-within-story does not disprove a hierarchy, but rather proves it. I presented it as an example to explain it 3D writer 4D writer 5D writer

With story within a story I take it you mean dream within a dream. If there are other stuff that talks about the dream Hierarchy, would be helpful, cause the scan above doesn't proof a thing about that Hierarchy. If fact it is more like such Hierarchy don't exist. Anyways I need to stop this discussion and face DT points cause there are things I don't agree with

 

[AKUTO123]

With story within a story I take it you mean dream within a dream. If there are other stuff that talks about the dream Hierarchy, would be helpful, cause the scan above doesn't proof a thing about that Hierarchy. If fact it is more like such Hierarchy don't exist. Anyways I need to stop this discussion and face DT points cause there are things I don't agree with

I think what I said created something for you, but it did not fully satisfy you. Maybe DT's words will be more convincing on you.

 

[Lormac_CC]

think what I said created something for you, but it did not fully satisfy you

It didn't create a thing, what I want to ask DT is quite different from what I discussed with you. You didn't even get scans to prove that dream hierarchy isn't an assumption

 

[AKUTO123]

It didn't create a thing, what I want to ask DT is quite different from what I discussed with you. You didn't even get scans to prove that dream hierarchy isn't an assumption

What do you mean by proving that there is no conjecture? It may be because I don't understand what you mean. I can respond more easily if you tell me why you think of the dream hierarchy as an assumption.

 

[Tarang123]

What do you mean by proving that there is no conjecture? It may be because I don't understand what you mean. I can respond more easily if you tell me why you think of the dream hierarchy as an assumption.

I think he might be asking for you to show some scans

 

[AKUTO123]

I think he might be asking for you to show some scans

If that's what he wants, no problem.

 

[Teezar]

The s.p.a.ce itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite. Opening up the possibilities was not just a concept. It actually released the walls of the world that supposedly existed within Akuto.

Seems 2B or 2A to me.

 

[Ningenron]

Seems 2B or 2A to me.

It's neither. he isn't creating separate worlds/Possibilities or anything. He's just recreating the afterlife over and over by using the data of the previous world that he collected with some minor events manipulated and false memories of the past he inserted to make them look like separated Worlds/Possibilities:

“Alright. I’ll rebuild the afterlife then. You want me to strengthen the influence of the outer gods, and return the world to its premana-civilization form, right?” “That’s right. Maybe sometime in the 1990s?” “I’ll try it. How it works... is up to you.” Akuto balled up the world in his hands again, and then let it spread out wide.

Of course. With you gone, I can rewind the world and restart the story,with all its patterns. You can be there, just not as the demon king.” “Isn’t that a waste of time? You’ve already killed me a bunch of times, haven’t you?” Akuto asked, confused. Hiroshi pointed at him, as if to say,“That’s exactly the point!”

“In that case, I think you should start right away.” She produced a mana screen and displayed a model of history. “The data you can view is a copy of that from the world just before it was destroyed, but you can use that to calculate back and construct all possibilities.”

Hattori was sharp, but she could be stubborn and prone to reject anything she saw as a flight of fancy. I’ll probably have to explain to you who Junko is. When the Demon King rolled back the story to around the year 2000, we were given different personalities and lives. The world was created from nothing in 1990, and we were all given false memories of the past. So in this world, Junko Hattori was an old co-worker of mine. Her old appearance, and her old story, had been taken from her, and now she was a thin, and to be honest, plain-looking girl.

As for the OP, I might respond in few days. Still busy.

 

[Teezar]

It's neither. he isn't creating separate worlds/Possibilities or anything. He's just recreating the afterlife over and over by using the data of the previous world that he collected with some minor events manipulated and false memories of the past he inserted to make them look like separated Worlds/Possibilities:





As for the OP, I might respond in few days. Still busy.

Oh, thanks for clarifying.

 

[Urshani]

What tier would Akuto be if the downgrades get accepted

 

[Ningenron]

Anywhere from planetary to low 2-C.

And Just gonna add minor thing before dipping.

The second quote just gave a possibility on how the world might be structured. This already removed anything called The dream Hierarchy, dream within a dream is just based on assumptions

I REALLY wonder who is the one "dreaming" the original world from the Afterlife since supposedly it trancends it...

 

[Lormac_CC]

I REALLY wonder who is the one "dreaming" the original world from the Afterlife since supposedly it trancends

Right now I am with Darkmash on layers

If I want I can technically call the conclusion that the "multi layer" story is referring to R>F layers a non sequitur since it never elaborates what these layers are. That's why the quote that talks about a story revealed to be a story is important since it contextualises these layers

 

[Urshani]

Anywhere from planetary to low 2-C.

Alright, if this gets accepted I'll try to find some good matches for him.

 

[Sus]

Alright, if this gets accepted I'll try to find some good matches for him.

I can't with this guy

Anyway, @Lormac_CC @Shuradou and @QuasiYuri still make sense to me

 

[Kuro4416]

Alright, if this gets accepted I'll try to find some good matches for him.

Whether sai akuto will be bullied

 

[DontTalkDT]

I'm a bit late in the thread and long ass back and forth give me headache so I'm just gonna give my opinion without bigass arguments.

I would go with the downgrade's arguments rather than DontalkDT's, because the latter require a lot of mental gymnastics and personal interpretations over the story ; not unlike the "he had to create every stories, so he recreated the entire verse in some of them".

Others are treated as fictional regardless of whether you transcend them or not, you can find that in Hiroshi's chapter or so.

I think our standard on R/F diff may be a bit too vague, which is why people get confused whenever such talk happen.

That's not debunking any argument made, but just a personal stance based on nothing concrete. Honestly, with no proper argument from your side I would argue you make the personal interpretations and mental gymnastics here. I think my OP demonstrates sufficiently how proper reality-fiction stuff is by far the easiest and most contradiction free interpretation.

Also, the argument wasn't "he had to create every stories, so he recreated the entire verse in some of them" but "he had to create a story with infinite story hierarchy since that is mentioned to exist i.e. be possible and he was indicated to be able to create any possible story." I'm honestly surprised you are against it, seeing as you agreed with the Manifold upgrade that used the same line of reasoning in a more indirect way for a higher tier.

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that DontTalk makes sense here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Btw. I think we are still waiting for a longer post of Shuradou, right?
Once everyone had a chance to say what he/she wants to say I want to do another round of asking staff for input myself in order to get this concluded. (Maybe I will ask them on their wall at that time)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[QuasiYuri]

That's not debunking any argument made, but just a personal stance based on nothing concrete. Honestly, with no proper argument from your side I would argue you make the personal interpretations and mental gymnastics here. I think my OP demonstrates sufficiently how proper reality-fiction stuff is by far the easiest and most contradiction free interpretation.

I did say I wouldn't make biggass arguments. My personal policy is that if a single thing's overly long, there's something fishy to drown in the words. Also I'm just not into doing that these days.

Others already gave the arguments I would have used myself, mainly Darksmash.
Your OP is basically explaining the entire Act 13 and trying to connect dots. But thing is, connecting dots is something Game Theory or the likes do, because they're just doing theories, while we're doing indexing.

Ichiban didn't talk about reality/fiction as something transcendent, but as a matter of awareness and seeing outside your world (Hiroshi in part 5, Bouchirou talking from the fictional world about how stuff is fictional to them, beings likened to concepts rather than litteraly lesser fiction, etc...).

Since going with what is given the most directly is the best way to accuracy, there's no reason to theorize a superiority not mentionned in the work which is not the only kind to exist.

Also, the argument wasn't "he had to create every stories, so he recreated the entire verse in some of them" but "he had to create a story with infinite story hierarchy since that is mentioned to exist i.e. be possible and he was indicated to be able to create any possible story." I'm honestly surprised you are against it, seeing as you agreed with the Manifold upgrade that used the same line of reasoning in a more indirect way for a higher tier.

Then it means I misunderstood the reasons for said upgrade.
My only input was about the structure mentionned to be Woody, not the multiverse.

 

[Threemagi]

I'm honestly surprised you are against it, seeing as you agreed with the Manifold upgrade that used the same line of reasoning in a more indirect way for a higher tier.

From what I remember, Quasi didn't really fully agree from the start. More like, 'Not really against it. But Possibly is preferable.'

(I was ready for 'Possibly' too, but KingPin mostly carried the upgrade even tho I'm the OP, lol)

And now I'm anticipating the Manifold downgrade/removal of Tier 0 Key from QuasiYuri, haha

 

[QuasiYuri]

From what I remember, Quasi didn't really fully agree from the start. More like, 'Not really against it. But Possibly is preferable.'

(I was ready for 'Possibly' too, but KingPin mostly carried the upgrade even tho I'm the OP, lol)

And now I'm anticipating the Manifold downgrade/removal of Tier 0 Key from QuasiYuri, haha

Tbh I was pretty much like "why are we talking about Woody is that ******* Toy Story?" so I tried to give an opinion based on the part that looked relevant.

I'm now too casual to deal with such things. I'm a rule guy, so I'm gonna do a vs rules island in a corner and stay on it

 

[Chasekilleen]

Just a quick question. Wouldn't using Japanese scans be better and would clear up some ambiguities especially since this seems more like people having different interpretations.
IMHO it honestly seems to be going nowhere at this point.

 

[Elizhaa]

As such I propose that we continue to interpret the stories that are relevant to tiering as reality-fiction differences and hence to not change the profiles for this reason.

The option seems fine.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

It does have reality fiction, that is why it has been an agurment for low 1-C for sometime

Which one?

 

[Kamenriderblaze]

So in the end does the verse got down grade or still there ?

 

[Tarang123]

So in the end does the verse got down grade or still there ?

We’re still arguing it

 

[Kamenriderblaze]

Meh anyway i agree on the downgrade

 

[Odinson]

Just a quick question. Wouldn't using Japanese scans be better and would clear up some ambiguities especially since this seems more like people having different interpretations.
IMHO it honestly seems to be going nowhere at this point.

Honestly, I don't know why this hasn't been done till now.

 

[Tarang123]

Honestly, I don't know why this hasn't been done till now.

Haven’t people been doing that in the other thread?

 

[PairusDragonoid]

Just a quick question. Wouldn't using Japanese scans be better and would clear up some ambiguities especially since this seems more like people having different interpretations.
IMHO it honestly seems to be going nowhere at this point.

I also think so, and i heard that Ichiban's translations (whether official or fan) are mediocre or not up to quality.

The ideal would be to bring the RAWs (No citations, literal capture / scan with page / arc and the quote in question) to verify things (clear with the context, and not be selective at convenience (Cherry-picking) to enlarge or lower stupidly the feats), also you need those people who really read the entire work completely, have time and being more in the middle not just only read the last volume where they release all the information or have utdate info or dosent remember correctly the info.

Likewise, it would also be good to cut off every intent to Downgrade or Upgrade if the source of information is from other threads in other places, those threads need to be done by people who really read / know about the work here with the standars of VSB and not absurd attempts decontextualized/cherry picking/miss information from other places that have other standards or that said author is known for nerfing or wanking what he dislikes / like (like not_exactly from Comicvine).

 

[Chasekilleen]

I also think so, and i heard that Ichiban's translations (whether official or fan) are mediocre or not up to quality.

The ideal would be to bring the RAWs (No citations, literal capture / scan with page / arc and the quote in question) to verify things (clear with the context, and not be selective at convenience (Cherry-picking) to enlarge or lower stupidly the feats), also you need those people who really read the entire work completely, have time and being more in the middle not just only read the last volume where they release all the information or have utdate info or dosent remember correctly the info.

Likewise, it would also be good to cut off every intent to Downgrade or Upgrade if the source of information is from other threads in other places, those threads need to be done by people who really read / know about the work here with the standars of VSB and not absurd attempts decontextualized/cherry picking/miss information from other places that have other standards or that said author is known for nerfing or wanking what he dislikes / like (like not_exactly from Comicvine).

My problem with people using Japanese scans are people that just copy paste text instead of taking photos or screenshots of the scan itself. Because you know that they ran it through some kind of machine translation application and gave that result.

 

[AKUTO123]

Seems 2B or 2A to me.

This is not where I emphasized in the quote. where my emphasis is on the concept of possible worlds is in Akuto (in his mind), and in the subparagraph he re-explains what he means by possible worlds.

 

[AKUTO123]

To be clear, I think people misunderstand the fact-fiction layer. The explanation of the fiction-fact layering described in the series is, in my opinion, the best possible explanation of the reality-fiction difference. In terms of ratings, I'm in favor of keeping it as it is for now. I have a CRT that I plan to do this summer about the ratings, after that, I think the level of the series will change.

 

[Teezar]

This is not where I emphasized in the quote. where my emphasis is on the concept of possible worlds is in Akuto (in his mind), and in the subparagraph he re-explains what he means by possible worlds.

Sorry but I know nothing about demon king daimao novel but aren't possible worlds 2-B/2-A? since their innumerable or possibly infinite.

 

[Tsunamiazur]

I agree Daimao should get downgraded from tier 1, however the fact that there are still people who think that saying "agreed" will effect anything here, especially that it will immediately conclude the thread is quite, uh yeah- Anyways i never did, and still don't agree with the 1-A, especially high 1-A reasons for Daimao, though either way, it is also somewhat derived from personal in take and interpitations or subjective look at all of it, which was also the case with some certain other tier 1 verses that were downgraded, tho i believe that this case is kind of different from those.

 

[Swerzye29038]

Lmao true, but that was still the idea of High 1A Overvoid

Similar to a lot of DC pages currently on the wiki, it's feats and statements don't come anywhere near enough to justify it's current rating. It was always a mystery to me why DC tiers are as exaggerated as they are on Vs Battles Wiki

Sorry I went off topic, I just wanted to respond to that real quick.

 

[Tarang123]

Similar to a lot of DC pages currently on the wiki, it's feats and statements don't come anywhere near enough to justify it's current rating. It was always a mystery to me why DC tiers are as exaggerated as they are on Vs Battles Wiki

Yeah, but the verse is getting downgraded big-time, so there's that

 

[Urshani]

Similar to a lot of DC pages currently on the wiki, it's feats and statements don't come anywhere near enough to justify it's current rating. It was always a mystery to me why DC tiers are as exaggerated as they are on Vs Battles Wiki

Sorry I went off topic, I just wanted to respond to that real quick.

i think vertigo would drop to low 1-C without scaling to DC comics

 

[Chasekilleen]

失礼します, but are we specifically waiting for anyone to continue this thread? It just seems very inactive lately。