Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou Reality-Fiction stuff continued

[DontTalkDT]

This is a continuation of this thread, in which it is, amongst others, discussed whether the Ichiban Ushirou no Daimao Characters should be downgraded from Tier 1 because the reality-fiction levels in the novel aren't proper transcendence.
It's a little weird to start a continuation thread of a downgrade attempt with a rebuttal of said downgrades, but I decided to do so anyway for a few reasons.

Spoiler: Why I'm making a new thread for this

1. I want to focus on just one and likely the most important aspect of the downgrade thread here, instead of addressing everything. That's simply to make the argument easier to follow. After all, I plan of calling the staff members here to evaluate this and I think they will have a hard time wrapping their heads around this as is. Threads to deal with all the other stuff will be made once this is done too, of course.
2. I will be writing a little bit of a plot introduction here, so that fits good at the beginning.
3. The original OP addresses certain things as downgrades, which we never assumed to begin with and his hence a little... misleading in parts.
4. There is a lot of off-topic conversation in the original thread.

I will summarize the downgrade arguments, but of course, that is from my perspective as someone who is opposed to the downgrades. Hence I recommend any staff member that has the time and stamina to do so to read Shuradou and Darksmash's posts to get the arguments as they were originally proposed. (catzlaflame's posts are perhaps interesting, too, although they aren't necessarily pro-downgrades, as might be the posts of some others)
With the introductory stuff done let's get to the topic at hand.

To better understand everything that is talked about, let me quickly summarize the events which are relevant to the subject at hand. Obviously, I can't mention all details~

The reality-fiction things start to really be introduced in Volume 12 when Fujiko finds a journal in an ancient lab of black magicians / magic scientists.
This journal contained records of how they sent someone to the Afterlife and then back. They concluded from that fact that the world was fictional.
The journal further states that the world was created by the one true god, the Law of Identity, and details that god's nature.
Volume 12 ends with a great power summoning a meteor that kills everyone on Earth and, by that, sends them to the Afterlife.
With that, we come to Volume 13, the final volume of the story.
This Volume for the most part takes place in the Afterlife and it starts with Akuto and others arriving there. They quickly find that the afterlife has taken the shape of the world of the living from two years in the past, except that people who didn't die (and those without souls) also don't appear in its history. Furthermore, the world is generally at peace, with sources of conflict just not happening. They also early on notice that the world seems to follow Akuto's desires in particular, although they don't notice the true extend of that.
They, for a while, lead a fulfilled life in that paradise, but eventually, Akuto becomes interested in the true nature of that world as he feels like he is stuck in an eternal ending of a story.
That's when he starts experimenting and concludes that the Afterlife, too, is just fictional and discovers that he can basically do whatever he wants in it (i.e. reality warp it).
Ultimately, after some intervention from blonde Keena/The Law of Identity, Akuto concludes that he must find a way to be satisfied in order to "settle things". He concludes with Yoshie's help that what he needs to do is to bring the world to a proper end. A proper end being essential here, as simply crushing it wasn't allowed by The Law of Identity as that was the wrong approach. It was supposed to be an end to the world/story he is satisfied with, after all.
Ultimately, they decide that Akuto should simply use his control over the Afterlife to create every possible world and simply choose the one that makes for the best ending.
And that is what he consequently tries to do. He then spends a few millennia looking through possible worlds, but eventually decides to stop as looking through all of them would take forever.
While he is doing so, Hiroshi got his hands on a time travel device and tries to change the past in order to prevent the destruction of mankind, but quickly finds that all his attempts fail. Between these attempts, he talks with Boiichirou about the nature of the world.
After Akuto quits he starts having a talk with Hiroshi, who at that point is fused with Bouichirou, to ask him for advice. He's the only person in the Afterlife that is not yet influenced by Akuto.
There's quite a bit of debate there, but ultimately they decide that Akuto will create a story with Hiroshi as the protagonist. In that story, Hiroshi will write a story to eliminate the story, i.e. Akuto's story.
They do that and it ends with Hiroshi presenting his draft to the Law of Identity that appears in that story. The Law of Identity accepts the proposal and with that, they return to the world of the living. Keena/The Law of Identity and Akuto marry and together they take everyone to the anti-universe, the place where stories end.
Only Hiroshi was left behind by the Law of Identity in an empty world. He is made the new Law of Identity and tasked with creating new stories to bring salvation to those that couldn't be saved by the story of Ichiban Ushiro no Daimao. And once he does, he too can be saved as the rest was.
The End.

So yeah, there is a lot of meta-fictional stuff going on there, both in and out of the universe. With a plot like this, I don't need to explain how one could get the idea of reality-fiction levels.
Now that everyone has a rough idea which events we are talking about, let us get to the arguments that were made and address them.

The first downgrade argument I would like to address is that words like "fictional" and "story" are at times just used in a metaphorical fashion in the story.
That, in itself, is of course not much of an argument without stating where in the story, with which context, it should why should be considered non-literal. It's like arguing that because the word world can mean both planet and universe, all feats involving "worlds" are inherently unusable.
Hence let's not bother with the initial version of that argument and instead talk about the alternative interpretation suggested by Darksmash. Allow me to quote his suggestion:

What I wanted to say was that the factor that proved the world isn't real was death being illusory due to the existence of an afterlife. Fictional is kinda used in a metaphoric sense here. Basically if the characters don't have their free will and are being controlled by some outside force they would consider themselves as "fictional" since they have no free will. They basically go with the logic that the existence of an afterlife proves some god-like deity exists that is controlling the world.

He also brings up some quotes in that regard that won't be relevant to my argumentation. You can find them in this post.
The reason this interpretation doesn't hold up is that it doesn't fit to other information we have received on the subject matter. Since it is an integral part of the subject and will come up more in this, I will now quote the entire journal entry with which the reality-fiction stuff began. I will highlight the parts most relevant to this debate.

She had found a journal.
It had been a binder held between two black leather covers and it had contained a large amount of paper inside. Assuming it had been written by the head of the laboratory, she had guessed it contained entries for a long period of time.
But after reading through it, she had discovered its contents were not those of a journal containing daily records.
The head of the laboratory had held a certain fear and the journal contained thoughts on that subject.
As for that fear…
—The world is fictional?
This research is sure to bring happiness to the world, but that happiness will likely be built atop a certain type of fiction. No, the success of this research proves that to be the case.
Fujiko had read on and had begun sweating in fear as she started to grasp the dreadful contents.
In general, it said the following:
Many people have thought about the possibility of this world being fictional. One could be sure of their own existence, but the possibility remained that the world they saw was an illusion.
However, a clear counterargument existed to that example: the existence of others. If a person existed, they also had to accept the existence of others who think. If they accepted that the deaths of others were equal to their own death, they could conclude that no one person’s death would bring about the end of the world. In that case, the world would continue on after their own death.
But there was one way in which the world could be a falsehood that could not be proven one way or the other.
What if the entire world were someone’s dream?
To that question alone, there was no clear answer.
That worldview could be achieved by assuming a god created the world or the world was a story written by someone, but the existence of that god or storyteller could not be proven from within this world.
Until now, that is.
—What is this? Although, if that is true…
Fujiko had trembled.
The world was fictional.
The research mentioned in that journal had given that answer.
As it had said, “If someone could peer into the afterlife and return from there, they could prove this world is fictional.”
That result had not brought a chill to people’s spines. Instead, any who knew the truth had been driven mad.
Peering into the afterlife and returning meant to be resurrected.
All of the religions in the past had included the concept of resurrection. That belief in resurrection may have come from mankind instinctually realizing their world was fictional.
If someone who died and returned possessed identical thoughts, it would prove an afterlife existed. And the existence of a world after death would suggest someone existed outside this world.
That someone would be a true god. They would be a god of the outside world.
If that resurrection were undoubtedly true, it would make it possible for reality to be fictional. It could be a fictional world created by the god of the outside world.
The journal had spent quite a few pages on proving the existence a world after death, but the important line was as follows:
After being sent to and from the afterlife, Specimen #1 became known as the demon king.
—Akuto-sama was also resurrected! Did the original demon king do the same?
As Fujiko recalled what Akuto had done, her trembling had intensified.
As she had continued reading the journal, the unknown lab head’s thoughts had continued in an even more frightening direction.
The demon king was a weapon and a portion of the network of systemized computer gods, but why did he gain his power?
That required thinking about the Law of Identity.
At face value, that was the undeniable principle that you were yourself.
The fact that you were the person who was thinking your thoughts could not be shaken and that had already been touched on when it came to proving the existence of the world.
But what if the world were someone’s dream?
That answer was also simple.
The world was created by the storyteller known as the Law of Identity.
Then what was the world? The world was fiction.
But at the same time, the world was an absolute truth from inside that fiction.
From the outside, it was fiction. From the inside, it was truth.
What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?
How did the world come to be?
Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.
That one would be the one who had taken in all existence and all life.
That one would be too lonely to call a god.
They would be a truly solitary individual.
Then what was the world?
All the miscellaneous things added to the Law of Identity would be the world.
Even if the world was fictional to the Law of Identity, that fiction could be life with a will of its own. In fact, it would normally exceed the Law of Identity’s will. And if each individual was free, someone would eventually attempt to learn the truth of the world.
In this world, that had been the systemized computer gods.
The computer gods had asked themselves a question.
They were not life forms, so if they could possess a will of their own, did that not prove that the world was fictional?
And so the computer gods had produced the demon king.
The demon king had been meant to reveal the falsehood of the world, to transcend “death”, and to bring the computer gods and mankind to the true world.
—Can this be true?
Fujiko had closed the journal and slipped it inside her clothes.
Had it been a product of madness? Had it recorded the truth? Given those two options, she had wanted to bet on the latter.
For one, she had already concluded that the computer gods believed in the Law of Identity, so it was difficult to believe that the demon king they had created was nothing but a weapon. This had supported the idea that the ritual that would have killed Keena might have had some real effect.
What mattered even more was the part about transcending death. Akuto had proved that it was possible to be truly resurrected in a way other than simple necromancy.
—If Akuto-sama is not a mere weapon and is also a human…
That would mean the world was fictional and any human could be resurrected.

The first highlighted part is already rather specific on what it means for the world to be fictional or "false" in this journal. It states that it means that the world was created by a god, but also that it is like the world is a dream of someone or a story written by someone. The term "storyteller", first used in this context, is later on used multiple times to refer to the Law of Identity and others with the power to create stories. (See: Volume 12 Chapter 6 and Volume 13 Chapter 6) To retain the position of fictionality being a metaphor with that passage, one would need to assume that the author explains the metaphor that the world is fictional with another metaphor that makes it sound even more like the fictionality is literal.
The second highlighted part brings up that not just is the world fictional, but that from the inside it is also the absolute truth. In a literal interpretation, as I am suggesting, this makes sense. From the inside, a dream seems perfectly real. The character's up to this point live in that world, which they only now are realizing to be fictional, and they could see, hear, touch and feel the world they are interacting with. Stating that the world is not a lie, but the truth, from their perspective, makes sense. However, when viewed from the outside as a dream or piece of writing, none of that is the case. From an observer with that perspective, it would make sense to consider it fiction i.e. a lie. In comparison: An interpretation that fictionality just means lack of free will might explain why the world is referred to as fictional, but has no really good explanation for the difference between inside and outside observers. From the inside, everyone would lack free will just as much as viewed from the outside. Hence both observers should equally describe it as "fictional" in that metaphorical sense. That, however, is not the case.
Lastly, let me remind everyone that this is supposed to be a scientific journal of a laboratory. By nature, it is highly unlikely that such a piece of writing is written using a lot of metaphors. While they are dealing with metaphysical things here, a scientific journal can definitely be expected to be as literal and straightforward as possible.
As such, a literal interpretation of the journal's contents fits better and the "fictional is metaphorically referring to lack of free will"-idea should be discarded.

The second argument to be discussed is the claim that things in the stories Akuto creates (when he attempts to create all possible worlds in the afterlife), specifically the Extra-Universal Gods, can fight him. That is based on quotes as the following:

However, the most troublesome part of the work was the elements brought in by the extra-universal gods. That included things not possessed by the Law of Identity.
Akuto fought with those extra-universal gods a few times. Sometimes he won.

A story was created in which Akuto attended an academy in an unnamed alternate world. He was dominated by Fujiko and he struggled to help her take over the world. It ended with Fujiko’s world domination never coming to fruition and the two of them never even kissing. He finished testing that possibility.
Sometimes the extra-universal gods won.

On the other hand, the stories created by the extra-universal gods were intended to destroy his desires. Also, its outer surface as a story was hidden, so it was shown as if it were the truth. That too was a final shape of a story.

Ichiban Ushiro no Daimao has two independent English translations. For the last quote let me also provide the other translation:

On the other hand, the stories where the outer gods intervened involved the things he wanted being destroyed. They would also hide the fact that they were stories, and make it seem as if, instead, they were reality.

There are multiple things that could be said about this position. For a start, it could be possible that the Extra-Universal Gods that are talked about here (note: Every god from outside the main realities would be considered Extra-Universal, so it's not like all of them are necessarily of similar power or nature) are simply being as powerful as Akuto. However, while a possibility, I think the novel supports a different interpretation that is even more in line with reality-fiction transcendence.
To start explaining why that shouldn't be viewed as evidence against reality-fiction transcendence, let me point out that other parts of the novels don't exactly support the idea that the extra-universal gods in Akuto's stories are actually as powerful as him.

Opening up all possibilities may have been a mistake.

The space itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite. Opening up the possibilities was not just a concept. It actually released the walls of the world that supposedly existed within Akuto.

This was similar to further universes being born within him.

The props used naturally extended beyond him.

In other words, even the extra-universal gods became possibilities in the story.

As a result, all stories fell into chaos.

For a start, it is worth noting that the extra-universal gods only became possibilities in the story once Akuto started creating all possible worlds. It is through his power and actions that they even are part of the story/stories.

Akuto thought on Bouichirou’s words for a while and then suddenly spoke.

“I’ll summon the extra-universal gods.”

Even Bouichirou looked surprised at that.

“Can you do that?”

“They should have been made a part of the story, too. I’m not sure how much we can understand each other since we don’t share a story, but it should still be possible.”

As soon as he said it, a black figure appeared in the chair. Everyone there could tell it were there.

Since they have become part of the story, Akuto is also freely able to summon them.

“This place is like a never-ending plain…or desert.”

Hiroshi looked around.

“I could make it into any form, but I want to produce as few stories as possible.”

“This really is your world.”

“Yes, I suppose it is. What do you want to drink? I hadn’t decided on that yet.”

Akuto spoke casually and Hiroshi peered into the cup to find what had no form beyond being a liquid.

“Water. Carbonated water.”

As soon as Hiroshi said that, the contents of the cup transformed into cold mineral water with bubbles inside.

“I see.”

He drank the water and it refreshingly wet his throat.

“What does it feel like to be able to do anything?” he asked after taking a breath.

“It feels like arriving at the farthest reaches of biological pleasure,” immediately replied Akuto.

For this quote, it is important to note that it comes after Akuto has given up on the entire creating all possible worlds strategy. Or, more specifically, it comes after the quotes regarding the extra-universal gods "winning" against him. The fact that Akuto himself and Hiroshi, one of the most knowledgable characters regarding stories at that point, still consider Akuto all-powerful in "his world" (that is the Afterlife in which he did the world creation) indicates that Akuto has not found a limit in his power when dealing with the gods.
Lastly:

Hiroshi’s words were calm and he faced straight forward.

After a while, Akuto nodded.

“Understood. I will now reconstruct this world of the afterlife. Will allowing a high influence from the extra-universal gods and returning to before the mana civilization work?”

“Yes. Around 1990 should be good.”

“Let’s try this. I’m leaving it up to you.”

When Akuto creates the final story in which Hiroshi writes the story to end the story, Akuto implies that he can regulate how much influence from the extra-universal gods he allows in the story.
We see that the idea of the Extra-Universal Gods in Akuto's story being as powerful as he is, isn't an interpretation that fits all too well with statements from the story after that.
So, which alternate explanation do I propose? Well, there are two possible explanations that could also be true at once.
For a start, while Akuto is the storyteller here, he also appears as a character in the story he creates:

Sometimes the extra-universal gods won.
Akuto was in Dresden on February 13, 1945. The Allies performed a completely meaningless bombing and he was caught in the firestorm along with Junko. He was badly injured yet did not die, but he had watch helpless as Junko died before his eyes. Afterwards, he lived by standing in the city as a wounded soldier and begging for money from people, but he eventually died of malnutrition. That possibility ended there.

Akuto was born with the mysterious power to see ghosts. He used that power to work with a ghost version of Korone and resolve incidents related to complex human relationships. That story had no ending. Tens of thousands of stories were inspected and the testing of that possibility ended once they had all been completed.

So, Akuto losing against the extra-universal gods could be interpreted as his self-insert losing against them and hence having its desires crushed, as that's what they wanted to do. (And it is a form of self-insert/avatar... he died in that one story, after all)
The second explanation is even simpler. Akuto was trying to create all possible worlds. If he only created worlds in which he wins against the Extra-Universal Gods, it wouldn't be all possible worlds. So Akuto loses in some worlds, as he doesn't try to win. He could said to actively attempt to lose at times.

Next on the downgrade argument list is the claim that stories could fight back against their creator. This is based on the following quote:

I felt like I’d seen the core essence of stories. This was a story written to destroy stories, and it was clear that the stories were fighting back. Looking back, there had been many obstacles in my way up until this point, but all of them were caused by the stories controlling my memories and actions. This goes for how books sell, too.

The first strange thing about that argument is that this isn't said by Akuto, who is the creator of that story, but by Hiroshi, who is the protagonist of it. This quote comes from the time Horshi spends in that last story Akuto creates for him, in which he tries to write an end the Law of Identity accepts. Or, technically, it is a part of something Hiroshi wrote that documents what happened to him in that story. I want to present a bit more context around this quote:

Our minds are infected by a virus called “stories” that someone injected into our brains. That’s what I said. We must abandon stories. I said that too. And I’ve seen the first humans, and the birth of stories, too. The result of all that is the person I am now. The writer of this story. But as I said at the beginning, it took me until the death of my ex-girlfriend to realize my destiny. Living in a world with a low story density had given me what amounted to amnesia. Perhaps I needed an event that was like an overdose of stories to remember. After my memories came back, I spent a fairly long time writing about the life of Akuto Sai. This, I believe, is the end of that process. But it wasn’t easy. Around 2010, when the story began to reach its end, it took courage to start writing. I had no ideas in my brain, just a dull headache. It was like I was being slowly strangled by an invisible noose around my throat. There was a strange, unpleasant feeling, a weight that made it hard to move, or hard to even stand up. This unpleasant feeling only grew as my desire to write down these words increased. I knew what writers had always called this. A slump. Writer’s block. Someone of a more traditional literary bent might’ve called it a devouring mold, or a stalking black dog. But I gave it a stupider name: the crazy monster. The crazy monster sat in the corner of the room, and whenever I stared at it, it would leap on my shoulders. If I slept, or did something to distract myself that involved no mental work whatsoever, it would eventually vanish. But during the times when that wasn’t possible, I would have to do a little exercise to get the unpleasantness off my shoulders. The problem was, I would have to exercise to the point where it put a serious strain on me for it to have any effect, and this was also a bit of a gamble. Sometimes it would help, and other times, it created a pain in my shoulders that made me want to throw up. The pain got to the point where it was devouring my life. By the time I realized that I couldn’t defeat it, or tame it, it finally occurred to me what it was. It was lightness. The lighter I tried to make what I was writing, the harder it became to write. I need to elaborate more about what I mean by “lightness”. Normally, the word would refer to something superficial. Something that didn’t make you think. But in this case, I mean something virtual. First, the main characters had left their physical bodies behind. By this I mean that they were capable of surviving physical shocks that would kill an ordinary human, and sometimes would display superhuman powers. For this reason, the characters had personalities that were extremely slanted in one direction or another, and seemed inhuman. The story was written to have a happy ending, and even if there was some unhappiness, it was there for a reason. Sometimes, to avoid an unhappy story, the characters wouldn’t age, and their minds wouldn’t mature. When I tried to write these “light” stories, the unpleasant feeling was always there. So what if I tried to write a “heavy” story? I tried it, just to get my mind off things, and the more “virtual” it became (that is, even if the characters seemed real, if the story was still fictional) the more the “crazy monster” would be waiting for me. It was clear that this was an obstacle set by the stories themselves. I felt like I’d seen the core essence of stories. This was a story written to destroy stories, and it was clear that the stories were fighting back. Looking back, there had been many obstacles in my way up until this point, but all of them were caused by the stories controlling my memories and actions. This goes for how books sell, too. People are ashamed of “light” stories. But the lightest stories are the ones they love. Many people buy light stories in secret, stories that satisfy their base urges. The heavy stories, on the other hand, are the ones that are said to capture the essence of humanity, and those who write them are praised and called “intellectuals”. And even the most impossible stories are allowed to be believed if they become the text of a religion. Are stories like gravity? Do they pin us to the Earth with their weight, and make us avoid lightness? And if the true nature of humans is to seek lightness...

All of this story talk here is pretty philosophical and... well, it's about Hiroshi's struggles to write a story in the most common sense, i.e. to write an actual mundane book. The problems the stories throw his way are... writer's block. No doubt a bit of a self-insert of the author here, who in the afterword says that he needed six years to write this volume and in the prior volume already reported health problems, including seriously stiff shoulders.
For those who want to read more, let me insert the foreword of the volume here (which is out of universe i.e. that's the writer speaking there):

Finally, I feel like writing this. By “this”, of course, I mean this story. Before I do that, though, I need to talk to you a little about what stories are. We read stories. These stories can be movies. TV shows. Manga. Books. Anything. Of course, we read to enjoy. But “enjoying” something like this means wondering how it’s going to end... or at least, it does a lot of the time. In other words, there’s an expectation that there’ll be some kind of end. Of course, there are probably stories where you’ve said, “This is going to end soon, and I wish it wouldn’t.” But even in those cases, you only say that because you know stories have endings. Put bluntly, stories are either about whether the protagonists die or are saved. That’s why any stories that move people - and I include myself in this - begin with an ending. This goes for both tragedy and comedy, too. Complex chains of events all lead up to a conclusion, where a combination of coincidences and human action collide and explode into one ultimate point! And this point is why “stories” exist. A character’s “fate,” whether it’s a happy ending or the Grim Reaper’s scythe, exists only for the purposes of the ending. And if you’ve read this series so far, you know that stories are fictional, and yet control so much of our lives. In other words... Yes. We think of stories starting from the ending. A man meets a woman... and they get together, or they break up. A crime is committed... The culprit is caught, or escapes. A life is lived... It ends in happiness, or destruction. Every choice we make is infected with the virus we call “stories”. Our own free will has nothing to do with it. People can’t perceive time objectively. Instead, they perceive it as a story. It was just after the turn of the millennium, I think. I was in front of a condo in Yamato City, in Kanagawa Prefecture, when I got a call from an old friend. I thought they were calling to go hang out, but instead they were telling me that my ex-girlfriend, who I’d broken up with six months ago, had died. I hadn’t talked to her once since we broke up, but my friend had heard what happened from someone else. “Huh? Really?” “Really. Once I know more, I’ll call you.” “Wow... You’re sure about this?” “Yeah. Anyway, that’s what’s up...” “Okay, got it. Thanks for letting me know.” That’s how I remember the conversation. Completely devoid of meaning. I didn’t feel depressed or confused. I didn’t feel much of anything. But the next day, when I got a call from that same friend to tell me how she died, for some reason, I felt like something was chasing after me. I felt cold and scared, and the sweat wouldn’t stop dripping down my cheeks. It wasn’t that her death finally felt real to me, or anything like that. It never did feel “real” to me. I wasn’t going to ever see her again, anyway. The fact that I couldn’t, even if I wanted to, didn’t change a thing. The cause of her death was something stupid and ridiculous. She’d had a bad headache, and taken a little more of the medicine she always took than she was supposed to. It wasn’t suicide by sleeping pills. She was used to the medicine, and sometimes she’d taken more of it and suffered no ill effects. The direct cause of death was similar to what’s known as “Economy Class Syndrome”: an arterial blood clot. The cause of death was sleeping in the same position for many hours, without getting any water. The words “If only I hadn’t broken up with her...” flashed through my mind. Not to brag, but I’m pretty good at taking care of other people. I would’ve kept track of how much medicine she was taking, and made sure she was getting some mild exercise every day. But that was actually the reason she’d broken up with me. She’d found that part of me annoying, she said. —Maybe she’d still be alive today... I thought. If only I’d taken care of her... No, but of course, that was impossible. It was impossible, but still... That was what was freaking me out so much. She’d chosen a death that was close to a suicide. No, she had something within her personality that made her more likely than others to die. She was oblivious to her own physical condition, but sensitive to anything that threatened her mind. She chose passivity over action. And her personality was inclined to interpret goodwill as a personal attack. Over the long term, in every respect she was continually choosing death. Most people say that animals that choose to kill themselves are insane. Supposedly, lemmings committed suicide en masse, but we know now that that’s a lie. (The lie got started when a certain documentary faked them jumping off a cliff.) There are lots of confirmed cases of animals committing suicide, but as we research them more, we learn that almost all of these are caused either by parasites or poison from another animal. The hairworm, for instance, infects the body of a praying mantis and causes it to jump in the water. Hairworms can only reproduce in water, so they kill their host and then escape into the water. There’s also a certain type of bee that can control a cockroach’s brain after it implants it with its eggs. The poison it injects steals the cockroach’s free will, and makes it so that even as the larvae hatch and devour its body, it doesn’t feel any pain. And for as long as it’s possible for the cockroach to walk, the bee leads it to its nest. So it’s literally walking toward its own grave. Humans, of course, are living creatures too. So shouldn’t we try to live, no matter what happens? Doesn’t that mean that suicide should be impossible? Yes. Humans never die of their own free will. So what is “suicide”, then? There can only be one answer. Somebody is controlling our brains. I’ll say it again. Our minds are infected with a virus called “stories” that someone has injected us with. That’s why humans commit suicide. That’s why they do reckless things, and die. But while stories are parasites, they can also bring gifts to humanity. People can’t perceive time objectively. They perceive time as stories. And sentience couldn’t have been born without the ability to perceive time. Stories are what make us conscious beings. So what happens if we give up stories? No. We have to give them up. If we don’t, we’re finished. All stories have an end. And when that time comes for humanity, it means our destruction. And when that time comes, we’ll know why the being who planted stories within us did so. Will something hatch from within our brains? Or after death, will we be devoured by some huge creature? And if that’s true, can we give up stories now? As primitive humans, we must think about what it was that gave rise to “stories”. So... Let’s go see.

The parallels between what the author explains here regarding his philosophy regarding stories and what Hiroshi is saying are pretty clear.
Basically, the struggles against stories that Hiroshi reports here are the struggles of a human and of an author trying to bring an end to stories, not about reality itself trying to find a way to murder him or anything like that. (And Hiroshi in the story has no superpowers from what we know, so... if reality tried to murder him he would just die)

The next argument is that "characters that are supposedly fictional from the perspective of the higher being are able to influence them", based on the following quote:

Who knows. But to me, you didn’t seem like someone who never did anything.” Akuto smiled. “And even if this world was created by the Law of Identity, we all have our own wills. If our wills were strong enough, do you think we managed to influence this world?”

To refute that argument let me post the quote with context.

“The world of the afterlife, hm?” muttered Akuto. “If it exists, I wonder what it’s like.”

“Who knows. I only half believe it myself. If this world is false and it’s something like the Law of Identity’s dream, then there must be an afterlife.” She gave a weak smile. “But then I start wondering what will happen if it doesn’t exist.”

“If even you’re worried about that, I guess I can’t blame myself for being worried.”

“You’re overestimating me. Although I’m glad you think so highly of me.” She nodded and then stared into the distance. “They say you don’t even have the right to go to hell if you haven’t done good or evil, so I wonder where I’ll end up. At the very least, I haven’t done anything particularly good. I wonder what kind of afterlife the Law of Identity has prepared.”

“Who knows. But to me, you didn’t seem like someone who never did anything.” Akuto smiled. “And even if this world was created by the Law of Identity, we all have our own wills. If our wills were strong enough, do you think we managed to influence this world?”

“A strong will, huh? Even if we’re nothing but fictional characters?”

“Yes. I’m sure we set something large in motion. If I don’t believe that, there’s no reason to be here right now.”

“Setting something in motion with a strong will, hm?”

Yoshie nodded as if convinced of something and she then moved toward Akuto with a mischievous smile.

“In that case, I feel like putting my will to the test.”

“Your will?”

“Can a character’s will cause the story’s creator to act?”

With that, she stuck out her lips and closed her eyes.

“Wait, wait.”

Akuto was confused.

“If the Law of Identity is mixed in with Keena-chan’s will, she won’t want us to kiss here, will she? This is a test to see if my will can overcome that.”

Yeah, they aren't talking about bringing change by brute force here or anything. It's just speculation that maybe if they are determined enough they could change something, like possibly by convincing the Law of Identity to step into action.

The next downgrade argument is that the Afterlife, which we currently rank a fictional level higher than the living world, is "the same" as the living world and hence can't be a higher reality. That is based on the following quote:

“If the world we lived in was fictional, then the afterlife is also fictional. I started to think about what differentiated the two worlds and the answer I found was the presence or absence of an external wall,” he explained. “The world of the living had an external wall, but this world does not. No matter which three-dimensional direction you move in, you will return to your starting point. You can continue forever, but the space is finite.”

“I understand the concept, but what does it mean?”

“I don’t know.” He shook his head. “But I can say a few things with no real proof. They may both be fictional, but there is a fiction with something outside and there is a fiction with only the inside. And in the latter case, some are the protagonists and some are the background characters. I think whatever we do will be successful…while in this world at least.”

Like I mentioned in the summary, the Afterlife indeed is initially modelled after the world of the living... before Akuto starts reality warping it. Of course, both are fictional as they are still in the Law of Identity's story.
The quote actually doesn't say that they are completely identical. I mean, as I mentioned in the summary, some people don't exist in the afterlife and it is a peaceful world with altered history... so things are definitely different in multiple ways. It's just that Akuto points out that one difference in particular.
It is, in any case, no argument against a reality-fiction difference. Contrary to something like higher-dimensional space, higher reality-fiction realms don't need to be large or fundamentally different from their lower-level analogues. Like, a world contained in a normal-sized book can still be regular fiction.
So by our wiki standards on the matter, this is no evidence against reality-fiction levels of reality.

The next argument against reality-fiction differences is "Controlling the universe from outside is enough to consider it not real" based on the following quote:

“If only humans can observe the world, then when humans are gone, the world will cease to exist. But if the same person that died can come back to life, that means that someone is controlling this world. Which means it isn’t real,” Yoshie said, and then rubbed her temples like she had a headache.

This quote is referencing the Journal entry which I already quoted in its entirety earlier and the experiment that is described in it (They are talking about Fujiko's findings). I already explained how the journal supports reality-fiction differences and this is just a summary of what is said in it that doesn't describe it quite as well, so there isn't much to say. The scientists figured out that the world is just something like a dream from that experiment and Yoshie summarizes that result. This argument is just using the fact that Yoshie doesn't go into detail here to twist the statement.
I mean, in the first place, requiring total control over reality isn't a great counter-argument to an infinite power gap.

The next argument for the downgrade is that the Afterlife can't be a higher level of fiction, because one can move back and forth using the Robe of the Fire Rat:

Y-yes. The Robe of the Fire Rat supposedly opens the door to the world of the afterlife. We have that one and it may be like high level necromancy. Or maybe it’s a device to travel between dimensions.

That just isn't much of an argument. A device to travel back and forth between different planes of reality can exist in fiction. It also doesn't help that we don't know how it works. One suggested option is that it is necromancy and since the Afterlife is literally the Afterlife, magic the resurrects the dead can of course get someone back from there (and getting into the Afterlife is as easy as dying).
There are two other devices that can travel to the Afterlife and back btw. Two from which we know how they work. One is the coffin, which uses the dying and resuscitating method.
The other is the future tech that Bouichirou and Hiroshi use, which also allows for time travel. Bouichirou developed that quite possibly in the Afterlife and its mechanism even uses the fact that the world is a story to a certain extent:

“If you are to travel through time, I want you to understand that our knowledge and our world contradict each other.”

“Is it just me or are you straying from the point again?”

“I am not. According to our knowledge, what is time?”

It was an abstract question, but Hiroshi realized it had taken a step toward the core of the issue. To redo the world and avoid that conclusion, he had to understand what time was.

As a student, he had a certain level of education about the physical concept of time, so he gave the textbook answer.

“Time is relative and it can be compared to the space in which an object moves. The higher the speed, the larger the space the object can move through and the more possible phenomena it can encounter, but the object can only move in one direction. In two-dimensional terms, it is like only being able to choose one point on the circumference of an expanding ripple in the water.”

“That is more or less it. A single object cannot exist in multiple places simultaneously, but that rule falls apart here. That is why I was able to travel back in time.”

Bouichirou picked up a branch and drew a line on the ground.

“An object cannot exist in multiple places simultaneously because time actually has a smallest unit. If time – that is, the space you compared it to – can be infinitely divided, the paradox of Achilles and the tortoise can be achieved.”

He made a mark at the center of the line and then another mark at the center of the newly divided line’s right half. Once he had divided it 32 times, the width of the marks was greater than the width of the line portion.

“If these marks represent matter’s smallest unit, this is how it works.”

“I understand that, but how does that relate to being able to travel back in time? In fact, this understanding of time means you can’t transcend it.”

“Exactly. In the water ripple model, the other points on the circumference are nothing but possibilities. In other words, they are what could have happened but did not happen. Even if a single piece of matter returns to the previous point, the rest of the matter is no longer there. However, the world we are so familiar with did not function under the water ripple model.”

He used his foot to erase the line and drew a different line.

“This world is constructed in a way impossible under the laws of theoretical physics. You could say this world is like a recording on a single tape or like a chapter of text. It has linearity.”

He drew multiple squares on the line and the number of squares increased the further right he reached.

“All matter exists simultaneously in these squares and the past remains as the past. You can view the past as a pile of blocks that continues to grow larger. In that case, it is possible to rearrange the blocks.”

“And that’s why it should be possible to rewrite history and change the future,” agreed Hiroshi.

The highlighted parts are the interesting bits for this debate.
Anyways, travelling to the Afterlife by some unknown means is no evidence against reality-fiction stuff.

The next counter-argument was that the Afterlife is finite. I'm not going to bother you with the quote, as I agree. At least initially the Afterlife was finite (later on Akuto expanded it, but that's not important here).
As Ultima also already confirmed in the first thread, a higher level of reality in a reality-fiction model is allowed to be finite. That is no contradiction to a higher level of power.

A further argument against the Afterlife being a higher level of reality was that time there flows the same as time does on Earth. That is not completely true:

Hiroshi had no choice but to feel destiny at work in this meeting.

“I understand that this is the afterlife,” said Hiroshi because Bouichirou seemed to understand everything.

“I suppose I arrived here before you, but it feels to me like I only just arrived.”

“You only just arrived?”

Hiroshi was suspicious because a lot of time had passed since Bouichirou’s death.

“Yes, just now. The passage of time may be different here.”

However, generally speaking, one can say that the two run in parallel. That just is no evidence against it being a higher level of reality. A literal dream also progresses in time, while the sleeping person progresses in time. The time of the dream and the time of reality both run parallel. That doesn't mean the dream is real in any way, though. It's still just fiction.

We are getting to the end of the downgrade arguments. One argument that was brought up was something about the Void-Universe being the next step of evolution. That, quote wise, was referring to how Hiroshi was in a Void-Universe, i.e. completely empty space, after the Law of Identity and everyone else left for the Anti-Universe at the very end. I have no idea how the Law of Identity leaving and reducing everything to nothingness is a counter-argument, so I can't address it.
Of course, I asked for clarification on that point but received no answer. It might be the result of the whole downgrade thread apparently originating from comicvine.

Last, but not least, there was the suggestion that the contents of the Journal should just be disregarded because it isn't picked up on and doesn't fit well into what was shown afterwards.
Now, as I showed in addressing all the other downgrade arguments there is no reason to say it contradicts later parts of the story. In the first place, disregarding a piece of a book completely should be an absolutely last resort move and (at least in a linear story with just one author) I rarely have encountered a situation where I would agree with doing it.
Additionally, it isn't that it is not picked up upon. The storyteller term that is established there is continued to be used.

“Am I… Am I being left behind?” asked the hero.

The voice belonged to Hiroshi, to Bouichirou, to Kento, and to the storyteller.

The infinite fiction hierarchy is mentioned again:

“You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.”

The Law of Identity being what grants Identity was also brought up again:

“As soon as they find someone else, that other person disappears, but that other person forces them to learn what they themselves are,” said Akuto as he gathered his thoughts. Once he did, his voice then grew sharper. “The unpleasant feeling of learning of oneself and gaining self-identity… The Law of Identity!”

So, the Journal's content definitely isn't forgotten later on.



With that, we have covered all arguments in favour of a downgrade. However, we are still not done yet. Where there are contras, there are also pros. Beyond the arguments in favour of literal fiction already brought up to counter the downgrade arguments, there are also other arguments in favour. Let's get to these arguments. A lot of these were of course already brought up in the original thread. I'm just repeating them for completeness~

To begin, I will remind you again of the contents of the Journal. As I already explained when addressing the first counterargument, that points very strongly at literal layers of fiction. It quite explicitly connects fictionality to being like a dream or like writing on paper.

Let's look at a fun little piece of evidence of how the world is fundamentally not like a logical physical world.

“Sorry about having you come here.”

Akuto smiled and held out a drink.

“This place is like a never-ending plain…or desert.”

Hiroshi looked around.

“I could make it into any form, but I want to produce as few stories as possible.”

“This really is your world.”

“Yes, I suppose it is. What do you want to drink? I hadn’t decided on that yet.”

Akuto spoke casually and Hiroshi peered into the cup to find what had no form beyond being a liquid.

“Water. Carbonated water.”

As soon as Hiroshi said that, the contents of the cup transformed into cold mineral water with bubbles inside.

“I see.”

He drank the water and it refreshingly wet his throat.

This happens in the Afterlife after Akuto reality warped it. The liquid in the cup has no form until it is specified what it is. The scene reminds me of a scene from Umineko, where Featherine kills Lamdadelta via plot manipulation and Lambdadelta can't recognize what she has been killed with since Featherine hasn't written what it was yet.
Of course, this is little more than a bit of supportive evidence. By itself, it's just a weird ability.

Another point is how Akuto just reduces characters to their concepts once he starts controlling the Afterlife and with it their story.

“No, you wouldn’t have.” Akuto smiled too. “But we stand on the same stage. We’re probably the only ones who haven’t become a concept.”

“A concept?”

“You can’t understand someone’s personality just by looking at them, but now I can truly experience them. Even if other people’s reactions are mechanical in nature, we have no way of determining it. What resides within me right now may be the countless personalities of all existing people.”

What this means specifically is that he basically just starts treating them like the story characters they basically are. The Law of Identity is said to be similar in that regard.

“Just like the Law of Identity, the demon king does not handle the people as individual personalities. The people all have an internal side, but in the story, all else is nothing more than a collection of elements unneeded for a personality. That will remain the same even after he reorganizes the world.”
“I see.” Having caught on, Brave took a deep sigh. “We’ll be treated as a combined personality playing the role of the hero.”
“Yes. It is most likely for the Law of Identity’s convenience, but that is how the characters work in this world.”

In the final scene, where all souls find salvation, we also have a comment on how only those the storyteller hasn't forgotten appear.

“I’d rather you called it being relaxed. More importantly, there’s a few more people who haven’t shown up, right?”

“Apparently they won’t show up if the storyteller has forgotten about them.”

“That’s about the most basic meta comment I’ve ever heard. Are you sure we should be doing that?’

“If you search carefully enough, you’ll find Rubbers and that fly guy.”

“Please spare me.”

“Should we call in that ramen lover?”

“No!”

“You should not discriminate against male characters.”

“Headmaster!”

“Then again, I’m just about the only male character that hasn’t become the storyteller.”

“What about the members of that demon king worshiping black metal band? They had names, didn’t they?”

“They’re being saved, too?”

“All of the souls are being saved.”

“Hmph. Well, fine! Everyone, come on out!” shouted Junko.

All of the souls gathered.

They let go of their anger, sorrow, grudges, and envy. They left all those things in the real world.

Which is a hint to how someone not written by a storyteller won't appear either.

Then we have the passage we get when Hiroshi, i.e. Brave, tries to change the world via time travel but keeps failing. Bouichirou, the most knowledgeable person regarding the world's structure, explains that it is because the story is set in stone and hence can't be changed. Of course, even Hiroshi's attempts to change the story is part of the story. He goes even so far as to say that time travel technology only exists to show off how the world is just fiction.
He further mentions that things such as main characters and side characters exist, which obviously hints at literal fiction.

Brave felt utterly defeated.

He had kept count up to the 35th time.

He had killed Akuto more times than that, but nothing had changed. Not a thing.

Bouichirou had stopped hiding his pity partway through and Brave had clearly felt the sympathy of one who had been through the exact same thing.

“You should stop. Surely you know that.”

“I know all too well that someone is maliciously refusing to let me change history,” replied Brave in despair.

“That’s right. For some reason, this flow of events is not allowed to change.”

“But I’m one of the people who caused history to head down that path.”

“Yes. Even your futile struggles to change history are a part of that history. That is how it seems to work.” Bouichirou sighed. “I realized after I died, that my death was already decided.”

“Then I’m doomed to continually suffer in the same way? I have to repeat this unrewarded murder again and again as long as my will remains? And all of it is meaningless?”

Brave asked despite knowing the answer.

“Exactly.” Bouichirou nodded. “That is undoubtedly your role.”

“My role? So I have to work for the sake of someone’s plot? Why?”

“In this world…no, that is not a good way of putting it. In any world, there is no one with free will. Even you are doing this because you desire the result that will satisfy you, but those thoughts are in line with the ‘story’. What is happiness? If your stomach is full and a member of the opposite sex stands beside you, then you are satisfied. Even if that member of the opposite sex dies, the feeling of loss will not last too long. It does not create a gap that cannot be filled by another. Even those who seek out the finest foods despite their full stomach will settle for the food nearby when their stomach grows empty. There is no difference between biological satisfaction and happiness. If it were not for the ‘story’, that is. Many things are given value in a religious way: love, bloodline, success, one’s view of life, etc. But in a purely biological perspective, such things should not be given value. Stories support the human intellect, but they also infect it like a virus.”

“But we managed to resist it. We realized that and we’re trying to destroy the natural story. We know the history reaching this point is unnatural. The characters have realized they live in an artificial story, so the story has grown unstable!”

Brave’s eyes sparkled at this new discovery, but Bouichirou’s expression did not change.

“That is the kind of story this is.”

“What?”

“This is a story of divulging what stories are. The convenient deus ex machina does not exist simply as catharsis. It appears in order to tell us what it is we perceive as a story and to help us believe that the story is fictional. That god tells us of the pleasures and limits of the story. And thus we ourselves have become the deus ex machina.”

Bouichirou pointed at himself and then at Brave.

“We are the deus ex machina?”

“Rewriting history can save one from any problem. Even an unfortunate death or a terrible failure.”

“So…the deus ex machina hasn’t been forbidden. It just will fail?”

“Yes. And that leads to a single conclusion.”

“I get it. We’re not the protagonist.”

Brave was dumbfounded.

“That’s right.” Bouichirou disinterestedly dug into the ground with his foot. “And yet your role as a side character has yet to end. After all, Brave is now your only name and you have not lost that title. Most likely, all you are allowed now is to display bravery once everything has been lost.”

“And yet I’m still a side character, huh? So who’s the protagonist?”

He asked despite knowing the answer.

“That is of course the one who divulged several layers of fiction in the story. Most likely, the ending will come when he brings an end to the story exactly as the story dictates. The role of a demon king is to destroy the world, is it not? If a story does not allow the prince and princess to marry and live happily ever after, it must end with the world ending.”

The one that prevents the changing of history is of course The Law of Identity, since it is her story everything follows. Bouichirou also goes on to mention how there is no real objective truth in the stories, since they are stories.

“Yes. Only those involved can truly know history. We were not there, so all we can know is the historical information that someone could have forcibly rewritten.”

“That means anything could be made into the truth!” shouted Hiroshi.

“There is no such thing as truth. At least, there isn’t if this world really is a story.”

“Then does relate to the theory of time you explained to me before?”

“Yes. If you change something, something else is inserted at an appropriate point somewhere else. It is changed by someone.”

It was hard to believe, but Bouichirou had no reason to lie as Hiroshi would be able to confirm for himself whether it was true or not.

If that “someone” was the Law of Identity, she was being quite cruel. If her intent was to prevent the world from being changed, she would be sending the world toward destruction. If her intent was to prevent the world from being destroyed, it would be best for her to support Hiroshi’s attempts.

While thinking on that, Hiroshi felt a dark emotion welling up within him.

Now, we all know how debatable external author statements are around here. Nonetheless, one was brought up and I will present it.

So, according to the author, the Afterlife is a higher-level universe. Plenty vague, but definitely is enough to show that any "the Afterlife is basically just like the world of the living" arguments don't work. And supporting evidence.
Btw. the human idea world thing is probably about how the thoughts and desires of those in the Afterlife, and Akuto's especially, determine its nature. While in the Afterlife everyone succeeds. At least that's my interpretation of that statement.

Let's get to the rare case where visual evidence in this novel with few pictures will actually come in useful. This picture is posted on the last page of the novel. Hence it relates to the end of the last paragraph, which I will quote here:

“Am I… Am I being left behind?” asked the hero.

The voice belonged to Hiroshi, to Bouichirou, to Kento, and to the storyteller.

“Yes. As I said before, you will remain,” replied the Law of Identity.

She appeared to be a god of salvation, but she was also a cruel god.

“Why!?” he shouted bitterly.

He had half expected this, but he had hoped there would be salvation for him as well.

But there was not.

“You must remain here to leave the story here. That way the next souls can continue on as well.”

He found that hard to believe and shook his head.

“But that’s too cruel!”

“I am aware it is cruel. That cruelty can be felt through the story. You will simply be starting over from the beginning. In the next instant, you will be in an Empty Universe, followed by a Formless Universe, and then it will shift to a Gravity Universe. That will likely take tens of thousands of years.”

“Please stop! I have to redo the story?”

“Because of who you are, that is unavoidable.”

“Because of who I am? I can’t escape that!”

“That is what it means to be the Law of Identity.”

“I will be the Law of Identity?”

“You are the next Law of Identity. If you are to be saved, it will be when you act as the Law of Identity and successfully guide the new personalities. The story will be trapped by gravity, so you must guide it toward lightness.”

“But that’s so sad. I have to part ways with everyone?”

“Even sadness will be outdated and obsolete under the story that will take effect in the next instant. You will not be parting ways with everyone. There must have been souls other than yours that were not saved by this story of the Demon King in the Very Back, so if you become the next Law of Identity, you will not be alone.”

That conversation occurred in the smallest unit of time, but there was no concept of time for the hero once he was within the Empty Universe that contained his mind.

He thought for eternity.

He thought of nonsense as nonsense.

Who could prove that he was sane?

This was the same as that.




He could do nothing but speak.

“Is someone there?”

He would search.

“I found you!”

He would shout.

He was forced to create stories.

In order to reach the best possible salvation, he had to head toward the worst possible conclusion.

Even so, if he repeated it all, he would arrive at the place he could glimpse in the distance.

He hoped against hope that the distant glimpse was not merely an illusion.

And once he arrived there, what would he do?

“I know there is something beyond all this.”

For that reason, he decided to start it all again.

The picture we get is this:

Now, the people in the background are of course all the characters leaving. They are basically waving Hiroshi, the boy in the foreground, as they leave him behind. Or maybe it depicts Hiroshi's memory of that event.
Hiroshi himself is the interesting part, though. The story ends with him becoming the new Law of Identity and being made to create new stories after everything else vanished. This is not unlikely a depiction of actually that: Hiroshi creating a story using pen and paper. Reality-Fiction Difference in its most literal form.

Now, I want to bring up two quotes regarding fiction layers again. You have already seen them if you read everything:

“And yet I’m still a side character, huh? So who’s the protagonist?”
He asked despite knowing the answer.
“That is of course the one who divulged several layers of fiction in the story. Most likely, the ending will come when he brings an end to the story exactly as the story dictates. The role of a demon king is to destroy the world, is it not? If a story does not allow the prince and princess to marry and live happily ever after, it must end with the world ending.”

“I get that, but what does it mean for me to be satisfied?”
“You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with.”

These two quotes come from when Akuto is in the Afterlife, but has not yet reality warped it to create all possible stories. We don't want to discuss how many layers of fiction there are exactly in the verse, that is a potential topic for another thread, but this shows why we assume that Akuto when he enters the Afterlife is already beyond the very first layer of fiction.

Last, but not least, we once again have Bouichirou explaining things:

“You only think that because the Law of Identity chose him.”
“Chose him?”
“The Law if Identity is the world’s storyteller. That means we cannot escape what has been said of us no matter what. That is why I attempted to exchange vows with the Law of Identity and have the story of the world changed. In other words, I chose to have us shifted to another universe.”
“You mean there is no third option?” asked Hiroshi in confusion.
“There is not,” said Bouichirou with a nod. “Think about what has happened in this world of the afterlife. Why were we able to meet? Was that not because it was convenient for the Law of Identity? Doesn’t it seem like a sort of plot convenience? This ‘aniki’ of yours, Sai Akuto, hated the stories that the people blindly believed in, but hasn’t he carried out the role of the protagonist in the story revolving around the Law of Identity? Can he truly escape that? Even in the afterlife, we are merely being forced into some sort of role or another. How are we to escape from the story that has been told of us? How are we to escape this eerie story structure?”
Hiroshi had no way of arguing against that.
“But if you can travel through time…”
Even so, he grew oddly stubborn.
“It would seem time in this world is linear, just like the human mind…no, just like a story. This is not a world of theoretical physics where the theory of relativity applies. That is why time travel is possible, but that linearity is another part of being a story. In other words, no matter how much you attempt to correct it, everything will be drawn back to the set story.”

The Law of Identity is the worlds storyteller and hence has absolute control and nobody can escape the story that has been told about them. That sounds to me a lot like the one that tells a story has control over it just like a reality-fiction difference suggests. As such, she has control over things such as plot convenience, which also is a thing official acknowledged to exist now. And everyone has a role in the story.
Of course, this is also another statement that time is linear like a story.
In total that's another strong support for reality-fiction differences in the verse.

In conclusion, we find that not only is the interpretation stories being "less real" (i.e. lower tier in a composite hierarchy sense) a viable interpretation, but it is even the most consistent one. The interpretation(s) proposed for the downgrade are not just less consistent, but, in general, require a belief in many parts of the story to be very metaphorical without offering good reasons to believe these metaphors are intended.

As such I propose that we continue to interpret the stories that are relevant to tiering as reality-fiction differences and hence to not change the profiles for this reason.

What do you think, everyone?

 

[Tarang123]

Uh…so you weren’t lying when you said that it was long. But based on what I’m seeing, I’ll change my vote to neutral instead of agree for the downgrade

 

[PairusDragonoid]

The xxcerpts should be cited for the exact page number and volume for more accuracy.

Aside for that, agree with everithing here.

 

[AKUTO123]

First of all, I would like to thank you for this long and detailed article, as someone who has read this series about 3 times and whose mind has changed many times with its layer. It's a very good article and it fits what I want to say. My interpretation of the extra-universal gods sometimes defeating Akuto was as follows: this story gave us the hierarchy of dreams and told reality fiction plots with a dream logic. When I kill a man in my dream, I don't actually kill him, but my body can react as if I killed that man, does it make this dream real? He fought with Akuto and extra-universal gods with his dream avatar, sometimes he won, sometimes he lost, but these were always in his dreams, anyway, at the beginning of endless possibilities, they were said to be a part of Akuto's story (dream) and in the following pieces, Akuto called them just like eriko, marie.fiction layer. As for the issue, I was planning to do a crt about it this summer because I think I noticed something, but that's another topic. Anyway, as someone who has read this series many times, I would like to express that what you call the summary of the work is very logical, consistent and the most accurate result.

 

[Sus]

another thread

No. Please.

Anyway arguments are well presented, waiting for the counter arguments, but something i want to say

As such I propose that we continue to interpret the stories that are relevant to tiering as reality-fiction differences and hence to not change the profiles for this reason.

The profiles needs mass rework, justifications are horrible for the most part, regardless of the downgrade outcome

 

[AKUTO123]

I would like to give an example for those who want to debunk the dimensionality of the series with the breadth of space. I am writing a book and I am only putting a house and a garden in it. Since this story I wrote is limited to a house, does this story cease to be fiction for me or for a person like me? The fact that space is the size of the earth solar system is not naturally important in the reality fiction hierarchy.

 

[Sus]

I would like to give an example for those who want to debunk the dimensionality of the series with the breadth of space. I am writing a book and I am only putting a house and a garden in it. Since this story I wrote is limited to a house, does this story cease to be fiction for me or for a person like me? The fact that space is the size of the earth solar system is not naturally important in the reality fiction hierarchy.

It would still downgrade their tier 2 keys

 

[AKUTO123]

It would still downgrade their tier 2 keys

yes it can but for level 1 it will not pose any problem. As someone who thinks that level 2 keys should be level 1, it doesn't matter to me at least for the level 2 keys to drop.

 

[AKUTO123]

The profiles needs mass rework, justifications are horrible for the most part, regardless of the downgrade outcome

yes this can be fixed. it is debatable

 

[AKUTO123]

Now, we all know how debatable external author statements are around here. Nonetheless, one was brought up and I will present it.

So, according to the author, the Afterlife is a higher-level universe. Plenty vague, but definitely is enough to show that any "the Afterlife is basically just like the world of the living" arguments don't work. And supporting evidence.
Btw. the human idea world thing is probably about how the thoughts and desires of those in the Afterlife, and Akuto's especially, determine its nature. While in the Afterlife everyone succeeds. At least that's my interpretation of that statement.

Let's get to the rare case where visual evidence in this novel with few pictures will actually come in useful. This picture is posted on the last page of the novel. Hence it relates to the end of the last paragraph, which I will quote here

I think what the author said here is very consistent with the novel. In the novel, yoshie stated that the afterlife changes according to the thoughts of people (Akuto). I think scientists have explained the meaning of being higher level very well to us.

 

[AKUTO123]

That's all I'm going to write until downgrade supporters write something.

 

[Tarang123]

I think what the author said here is very consistent with the novel. In the novel, yoshie stated that the afterlife changes according to the thoughts of people (Akuto). I think scientists have explained the meaning of being higher level very well to us.

If afterlife changes with the thoughts of people, wouldn't that put it lower? If I'm missing some context, please give it to me cause of my unfamiliarity with the verse

 

[Catzlaflame]

If afterlife changes with the thoughts of people, wouldn't that put it lower? If I'm missing some context, please give it to me cause of my unfamiliarity with the verse

At first (bouchirou/hiroshi) had assumed it was the will of all of humanity that controls the afterlife (and that stronger ones had larger impacts) but they later realized it was akutos will completely who had control

Gyazo

gyazo.com

Volume 13 chapter 3

 

[Catzlaflame]

Anyway don’t wanna be redundant but yea this is really well written, well done DT. Especially the picture scan with hiroshi that was truly a well played move, we’ll wait for darksmash now ig

 

[Tarang123]

At first (bouchirou/hiroshi) had assumed it was the will of all of humanity that controls the afterlife (and that stronger ones had larger impacts) but they later realized it was akutos will completely who had control

Oh, that still doesn't really seem to properly support the afterlife as a higher level of reality, but alr thx.

 

[Tarang123]

Anyway don’t wanna be redundant but yea this is really well written, well done DT. Especially the picture scan with hiroshi that was truly a well played move, we’ll wait for darksmash now ig

Darksmash: The world within the paper is fiction within fiction within fiction over and over again. As such, the verse should be downgraded to 10B due to god tiers being normal humans

 

[Catzlaflame]

Oh, that still doesn't really seem to properly support the afterlife as a higher level of reality, but alr thx.

It wasn’t meant to though? you asked if humanity, could control the afterlife, I wasn’t proving anything related to tiers or anything i was saying that they can’t, and only akuto can

 

[Tarang123]

It wasn’t meant to though? you asked if humanity, could control the afterlife, I wasn’t proving anything related to tiers or anything i was saying that they can’t, and only akuto can

Oh, I was responding to @AKUTO123 , who made that supporting argument with it being a higher level of reality or something, hence why I was asking that.

 

[Sus]

Let's wait for the supporting side

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Cant believe DT was write all of it,i vote for agree

 

[Urshani]

i still disagree

 

[Tarang123]

i still disagree

As in, you agree with the downgrade?

 

[Urshani]

As in, you agree with the downgrade?

yes

 

[Darksmash]

I don't have the time to read this completely or make a big response right now, but let me make this clear: at the very least a downgrade to 1-A/1-B should be absolutely guaranteed even if the "layers" are assumed to be transcendences. I asked for the raws on the previous thread as well, but since no one provided them we should give the official translation preference, where the dream hierarchy mentioned in context of the law of identity is downwards starting from it, instead of being upwards like the fantranslation. And honestly that makes 100% more sense than the fantranslation as well. Law of identity as an entity in the series is represented as the first being in existence who dreamed the first dream and started the hierarchy. It would make sense to give the example of an infinite downward hierarchy and how it can always be traced back to the top.

Oh and the multi layered fiction mentioned in volume 13 was referring to 4th wall breaking in context. I already talked about that on the original thread. It had nothing to do with the dream hierarchy in the journal.

Hence at best it would still be 1-C/1-B. I may try making a bigger post if I get the time, though honestly the writing of this verse is repulsive to me.

 

[Tarang123]

though honestly the writing of this verse is repulsive to me.

Glad someone else agrees with me.

Oh and the multi layered fiction mentioned in volume 13 was referring to 4th wall breaking in context.

Really? I thought it seemed to support the nature of R>F to some degree. Even then, with everything shown so far, I think the nature of R>F differences is pretty much given at this point. Even if we argued that it was nothing but a metaphor, it would still outline how the higher levels of the cosmology function in relation to lower levels, hence still giving them some kind of tier 2 to tier 1 rating.

 

[Odinson]

It just looks like there are a decent number of people who disagree with this not because the supporting arguments are bad, but because they "just want" this verse to get downgraded, which is Lulworthy. My message to them : Either counter the points given or shut up and go sit on the audiences's seat and watch the thread unfold, instead of jumping into it and saying 'i disagree' without giving valid reasons WHY. DT spent hours trying to write a well detailed post and you can't just say "I still disagree with this shit", COME ON.

 

[Tarang123]

It just looks like there are a decent number of people who disagree with this not because the supporting arguments are bad, but because they "just want" this verse to get downgraded, which is Lulworthy. My message to them : Either counter the points given or shut up and go sit on the audiences's seat and watch the thread unfold, instead of jumping into it and saying 'i disagree' without giving valid reasons WHY. DT spent hours trying to write a well detailed post and you can't just say "I still disagree with this shit", COME ON.

Agreed, but most people are agreeing/disagreeing with some of the points, or they disagree based on the previous thread that was made. Then again, there are members that are only truly voting due to the fact that a verse that is supposed to be stupidly OP is getting downgraded to hilarious levels.

 

[Darksmash]

Either counter the points given or shut up and go sit on the audiences's seat and watch the thread unfold

You can't really change how this website works. FRAs are what affects all threads. If everyone actually read all the posts in these threads instead of picking the side they want then Tier 1 would have been much more different than it is right now

 

[Sus]

What flowery language does to a man

 

[Antvasima]

The profiles needs mass rework, justifications are horrible for the most part, regardless of the downgrade outcome

This seems like a good idea to do in conjunction with this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, this seems to make sense to me.

@AKM sama @Promestein @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000

What do you think about this?

 

[Ningenron]

Well, I'm kinda busy rn and my school is near so I will respond when I get some time.

 

[AKUTO123]

If afterlife changes with the thoughts of people, wouldn't that put it lower? If I'm missing some context, please give it to me cause of my unfamiliarity with the verse

Why do you think it should be dropped? I can answer better if I know this

 

[AKUTO123]

I don't have the time to read this completely or make a big response right now, but let me make this clear: at the very least a downgrade to 1-A/1-B should be absolutely guaranteed even if the "layers" are assumed to be transcendences. I asked for the raws on the previous thread as well, but since no one provided them we should give the official translation preference, where the dream hierarchy mentioned in context of the law of identity is downwards starting from it, instead of being upwards like the fantranslation. And honestly that makes 100% more sense than the fantranslation as well. Law of identity as an entity in the series is represented as the first being in existence who dreamed the first dream and started the hierarchy. It would make sense to give the example of an infinite downward hierarchy and how it can always be traced back to the top.

Oh and the multi layered fiction mentioned in volume 13 was referring to 4th wall breaking in context. I already talked about that on the original thread. It had nothing to do with the dream hierarchy in the journal.

Hence at best it would still be 1-C/1-B. I may try making a bigger post if I get the time, though honestly the writing of this verse is repulsive to me.

Can you explain better what you said? Because I didn't understand anything from what you wrote now.

 

[Tarang123]

Can you explain better what you said? Because I didn't understand anything from what you wrote now.

I think what he’s saying is that the High 1A rating has to go no matter what

 

[AKUTO123]

Oh, I was responding to @AKUTO123 , who made that supporting argument with it being a higher level of reality or something, hence why I was asking that.

I wanted to explain that the novel and the author's words coincide. anyway, this promise does not lead to any downgrade or upgrade.

 

[Tarang123]

Why do you think it should be dropped? I can answer better if I know this

I was more or less just asking about the point in the OP

 

[AKUTO123]

I think what he’s saying is that the High 1A rating has to go no matter what

I don't understand the argument he gave to go. What they said about the magazine and tloi was extremely interesting and I couldn't make sense of it.

 

[AKUTO123]

I was more or less just asking about the point in the OP

Let me say then that my directing or directing any fictional universe does not reduce dimensional transcendence. I can honestly say it's irrelevant.

 

[AKUTO123]

You can't really change how this website works. FRAs are what affects all threads. If everyone actually read all the posts in these threads instead of picking the side they want then Tier 1 would have been much more different than it is right now

It is true, but with your logic, I will prepare a crt so that cthulhu downgrade will be downgrade, and then a group of people will say I agree regardless of whether it is right or wrong, and cthulhu will fall. I think that the purpose of this site is to go with the most accurate and logical information, not the will of the majority. If we just look at people voting, all the anime manga series on the wiki would be in a completely different place from their current location.