Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou Reality-Fiction stuff continued

[Sus]

@Shuradou has left the universe

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Having read DontTalk's OP I think he is making a lot of sense and I feel that the Reality-Fiction stuff is valid and can be used.

 

[Odinson]

This isn't really 1A unless this countless 1A thing is a layered hierarchy. Otherwise, it's a layer into 1A

... that's actually a decent argument for high 1-A.

 

[Naito-desu]

If DT agrees with me or says yes it can be so, then my logic is correct. To tell the truth, I don't think the two would say differently.

Appeal to Authority fallacy moment

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'm a bit late in the thread and long ass back and forth give me headache so I'm just gonna give my opinion without bigass arguments.

I would go with the downgrade's arguments rather than DontalkDT's, because the latter require a lot of mental gymnastics and personal interpretations over the story ; not unlike the "he had to create every stories, so he recreated the entire verse in some of them".

Others are treated as fictional regardless of whether you transcend them or not, you can find that in Hiroshi's chapter or so.

I think our standard on R/F diff may be a bit too vague, which is why people get confused whenever such talk happen.

 

[Lormac_CC]

not unlike the "he had to create every stories, so he recreated the entire verse in some of them".

 

[Teezar]

I'm a bit late in the thread and long ass back and forth give me headache so I'm just gonna give my opinion without bigass arguments.

I would go with the downgrade's arguments rather than DontalkDT's, because the latter require a lot of mental gymnastics and personal interpretations over the story ; not unlike the "he had to create every stories, so he recreated the entire verse in some of them".

Others are treated as fictional regardless of whether you transcend them or not, you can find that in Hiroshi's chapter or so.

I think our standard on R/F diff may be a bit too vague, which is why people get confused whenever such talk happen.

Why all teir 1 verses fear this guy......I see why now.

I'm back to neutral.

 

[Lormac_CC]

because the latter require a lot of mental gymnastics and personal interpretations over the story

Very true

Others are treated as fictional regardless of whether you transcend them or not, you can find that in Hiroshi's chapter or so

Which chapter, would be very helpful

I think our standard on R/F diff may be a bit too vague, which is why people get confused whenever such talk happen

Definitely agree, at least something should show that fiction can't harm reality. We shouldn't just give R>F transdence based on the fact that they view characters as fiction. The real world from Dragon Ball is a great example.

 

[AKUTO123]

Even if they helped revamp the tiering system, it wouldn’t make the logic truly correct, but assuming we take 1A ichiban, can you show evidence for the stuff that gets them to High 1A

I said here, not for the logic to be right or wrong, but for whether it should make high 1A if the logic is correct. Because someone said I vote for you within the approval of the ultima. I mean, there is no difference between ultima and DT.

 

[AKUTO123]

Even if they helped revamp the tiering system, it wouldn’t make the logic truly correct, but assuming we take 1A ichiban, can you show evidence for the stuff that gets them to High 1A

The things I wrote to you were already proofs for this, even if the 1A hierarchical one in it, it will still be in that system, and the tloi will transcend it. It should be writing what I said in the tier system.

 

[AKUTO123]

I'm a bit late in the thread and long ass back and forth give me headache so I'm just gonna give my opinion without bigass arguments.

I would go with the downgrade's arguments rather than DontalkDT's, because the latter require a lot of mental gymnastics and personal interpretations over the story ; not unlike the "he had to create every stories, so he recreated the entire verse in some of them".

Others are treated as fictional regardless of whether you transcend them or not, you can find that in Hiroshi's chapter or so.

I think our standard on R/F diff may be a bit too vague, which is why people get confused whenever such talk happen.

I don't think it's as much of a brainstorm as you exaggerate. He is said to have created everything that exists within the framework of logic that can be defined. After I did not claim that the dream hierarchy is not within the framework of logic or is something that cannot be defined, I could not understand why it should not be included in it. Saying that it does not include the dream hierarchy seems to me to contradict the context with all the logic described in the story. defined as possible worlds because the dream hierarchical

 

[AKUTO123]

Definitely agree, at least something should show that fiction can't harm reality. We shouldn't just give R>F transdence based on the fact that they view characters as fiction. The real world from Dragon Ball is a great example

I don't understand how the series is treated as if it's just fiction and reality. The series explains to us how fictional truth works, and I don't think there's a stronger difference from fiction to fact than what it explains. If you do not claim that you will be damaged by the fiction written on a paper?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Which chapter, would be very helpful

Act 13 part 4 or 5 iirc

 

[QuasiYuri]

I don't think it's as much of a brainstorm as you exaggerate. He is said to have created everything that exists within the framework of logic that can be defined. After I did not claim that the dream hierarchy is not within the framework of logic or is something that cannot be defined, I could not understand why it should not be included in it. Saying that it does not include the dream hierarchy seems to me to contradict the context with all the logic described in the story. defined as possible worlds because the dream hierarchical

I'm not exaggerating. It is a way to wank a multiverse nobody uses for any others verses.
By that logic, a single universe in Marvel should be 1-A because every possibilities = one with the entire verse inside of it.

Besides the fact that it only stopped at countless stories and didn't truly created everything, it makes no sense lore wise for Akuto to have transcended anything.

 

[Lormac_CC]

I don't understand how the series is treated as if it's just fiction and reality. The series explains to us how fictional truth works, and I don't think there's a stronger difference from fiction to fact than what it explains. If you do not claim that you will be damaged by the fiction written on a paper?

I am referring to the Wiki R>F justification. Yuri also said something about not transcending and been treated as fiction, if this is true then i will disagree with DT. I have seen DT blog.

Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

The dream hierarchy was just a possible way how the world might structured so doesn't really prove anything (thought I find it weird why dreams should be used for reality fiction transdence). The possible dream Hierarchy leads to TLOI. There is also this quote

You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with

Thought I haven't read the novel, I saw Darkmash agurment on this and I lean on agreeing with his after seeing

You had a fetish for revealing that which was fictional, and kept doing it again and again

and this

A story that’s revealed to be a story. The deus ex machina that appears at just the right moment isn’t there for the sake of catharsis. It has appeared to tell us what it is that we were thinking is a story, and tell us that is fictional. What that god tells us is the pleasure of a story, and its limits. And now, we’ve become the deus ex machina. We ourselves have become the god.” Boichiro pointed to himself, and then back to Brave

Act 13 part 4 or 5 iirc

Would check it out so that I can have my stand

He is said to have created everything that exists within the framework of logic that can be defined

This would be moving a lot of 2-A verses to 1-A cause there are Infinite possiblities.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Very true

Which chapter, would be very helpful

Definitely agree, at least something should show that fiction can't harm reality. We shouldn't just give R>F transdence based on the fact that they view characters as fiction. The real world from Dragon Ball is a great example.

IIRC Dragon Ball Real World are just an Future Timeline or something

 

[Lormac_CC]

IIRC Dragon Ball Real World are just an Future Timeline or something

Yes, but it shows that not all reality fiction shown should be taken as transdence

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Yes, but it shows that not all reality fiction shown should be taken as transdence

But it does'nt a Reality Fiction

 

[Lormac_CC]

But it does'nt a Reality Fiction

It does have reality fiction, that is why it has been an agurment for low 1-C for sometime

 

[Lormac_CC]

But it does'nt a Reality Fiction

Another example for this kind of stuff is Gwenpool (might not be a good example to use)

 

[Sus]

Agree with what @QuasiYuri has said, DT does make sense but we should take the route with the least amount of interpretations and assumptions

 

[Urshani]

i also agree with quasiyuri

 

[Antvasima]

I'm a bit late in the thread and long ass back and forth give me headache so I'm just gonna give my opinion without bigass arguments.

I would go with the downgrade's arguments rather than DontalkDT's, because the latter require a lot of mental gymnastics and personal interpretations over the story ; not unlike the "he had to create every stories, so he recreated the entire verse in some of them".

Others are treated as fictional regardless of whether you transcend them or not, you can find that in Hiroshi's chapter or so.

I think our standard on R/F diff may be a bit too vague, which is why people get confused whenever such talk happen.

@DontTalkDT

 

[AKUTO123]

I am referring to the Wiki R>F justification. Yuri also said something about not transcending and been treated as fiction, if this is true then i will disagree with DT. I have seen DT blog.

Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

The dream hierarchy was just a possible way how the world might structured so doesn't really prove anything (thought I find it weird why dreams should be used for reality fiction transdence). The possible dream Hierarchy leads to TLOI. There is also this quote

You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with

Thought I haven't read the novel, I saw Darkmash agurment on this and I lean on agreeing with his after seeing

You had a fetish for revealing that which was fictional, and kept doing it again and again

and this

A story that’s revealed to be a story. The deus ex machina that appears at just the right moment isn’t there for the sake of catharsis. It has appeared to tell us what it is that we were thinking is a story, and tell us that is fictional. What that god tells us is the pleasure of a story, and its limits. And now, we’ve become the deus ex machina. We ourselves have become the god.” Boichiro pointed to himself, and then back to Brave

Would check it out so that I can have my stand

This would be moving a lot of 2-A verses to 1-A cause there are Infinite possiblities.

There is something you misunderstood here. I say this makes 1A since there are already endless hierarchies of fiction real in the series. If the cojmology of the series is 2A, this statement will naturally make 2A. but it includes everything that is defined in the mind, and the dream hierarchy is also something that is defined in the mind. If there is no dream hierarchy, this statement gives nothing but 2A.

 

[AKUTO123]

So if a character in Marvel created everything that exists, and everything that exists is 1A, yes why not 1A? infinite possibilities alone are 2A but it definitely depends on what context and story tell us about it. creates everything that can be described Akuto and the dream hierarchy is also something described in the series. everything that can be described that makes sense, and Yoshie said that nothing that can't be described is not in the series.

 

[AKUTO123]

I'm not exaggerating. It is a way to wank a multiverse nobody uses for any others verses.
By that logic, a single universe in Marvel should be 1-A because every possibilities = one with the entire verse inside of it.

Besides the fact that it only stopped at countless stories and didn't truly created everything, it makes no sense lore wise for Akuto to have transcended anything.

There are already many contexts that support that these creations or everything in infinite possibilities are already part of Akuto's fiction. If endless possibilities are his fiction, the fight he created did not create is wrong from the very beginning. If I attribute the infinite possibilities to the logic of the dream hierarchy, it would be quite natural for Akuto not to see them all at once. You can't dream endlessly at the same time, you have to finish one to see the other. also, considering that he is battling extra-universal gods via an avatar, as Dont Talk suggests, Akuto would already be transcending the dream hierarchy and all that he could reach.

 

[QuasiYuri]

There are already many contexts that support that these creations or everything in infinite possibilities are already part of Akuto's fiction. If endless possibilities are his fiction, the fight he created did not create is wrong from the very beginning. If I attribute the infinite possibilities to the logic of the dream hierarchy, it would be quite natural for Akuto not to see them all at once. You can't dream endlessly at the same time, you have to finish one to see the other. also, considering that he is battling extra-universal gods via an avatar, as Dont Talk suggests, Akuto would already be transcending the dream hierarchy and all that he could reach.

There never was any mention of an "avatar" so it basically is made up.

He had to play each stories by himself, one by one. And while Yoshie wanted him to do an infinity of them, he eventually stopped doing them at the end of part 3/beginning of part 4.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Yeah, they aren't talking about bringing change by brute force here or anything. It's just speculation that maybe if they are determined enough they could change something, like possibly by convincing the Law of Identity to step into action.

I have to disagree with this due to that notion being supported by this. They aren't using force but it doesn't change the fact that that is supposed to be fiction has a will that can be stronger the the author.

Even if the world was fictional to the Law of Identity, that fiction could be life with a will of its own. In fact, it would normally exceed the Law of Identity’s will

 

[AKUTO123]

There never was any mention of an "avatar" so it basically is made up.

He had to play each stories by himself, one by one. And while Yoshie wanted him to do an infinity of them, he eventually stopped doing them at the end of part 3/beginning of part 4.

yes it has never been called an avatar but I think there are supporting things that show it's with avatar. one cannot see the eternal dream at the same time. and after a certain number of dreams, he may wake up and leave. but aren't his dreams still his fiction? Or everything that may arise as a result of his dreams? Even though he can't try them all at once, doesn't it mean that he opens them all at once? It seems very safe and logical to me to interpret infinite possibilities as Akuto's dreams. According to you, it is wrong to interpret them that way. I respect your opinion

 

[AKUTO123]

expressing infinite possibilities as releasing the walls of the world contained within the Akuto. it leads me to the extreme that this is part of Akuto's mind or dream.

 

[Lormac_CC]

I say this makes 1A since there are already endless hierarchies of fiction real in the series

I pointed this out already. Let's back track to the journal

What if the entire world were someone’s dream?
To that question alone, there was no clear answer. That worldview could be achieved by assuming a god created the world or the world was a story written by someone, but the existence of that god or storyteller could not be proven from within this world

This was the journal answer right at the beginning before this

What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?
How did the world come to be?
Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

The second quote just gave a possibility on how the world might be structured. This already removed anything called The dream Hierarchy, dream within a dream is just based on assumptions

You live in a fiction yet you hate fiction. You have a natural urge to divulge fictions, so you will do so one after another. You destroyed the system closing us in, but the next system activated. The fiction has multiple layers. It is in an infinite retreat. It’s like a hell that continues on and on forever, so it isn’t an easy thing to deal with

Thought I haven't read the novel, I saw Darkmash agurment on this and I lean on agreeing with his after seeing

You had a fetish for revealing that which was fictional, and kept doing it again and again

and this

A story that’s revealed to be a story. The deus ex machina that appears at just the right moment isn’t there for the sake of catharsis. It has appeared to tell us what it is that we were thinking is a story, and tell us that is fictional. What that god tells us is the pleasure of a story, and its limits. And now, we’ve become the deus ex machina. We ourselves have become the god.” Boichiro pointed to himself, and then back to Brave

 

[QuasiYuri]

yes it has never been called an avatar but I think there are supporting things that show it's with avatar. one cannot see the eternal dream at the same time. and after a certain number of dreams, he may wake up and leave. but aren't his dreams still his fiction? Or everything that may arise as a result of his dreams? Even though he can't try them all at once, doesn't it mean that he opens them all at once? It seems very safe and logical to me to interpret infinite possibilities as Akuto's dreams. According to you, it is wrong to interpret them that way. I respect your opinion

Everything you just said is made up tho, not actual in-verse evidences.
I'm in favor of using the lesser amount of assumptions by sheer logic, aka not invent anything.

 

[AKUTO123]

I pointed this out already. Let's back track to the journal

What if the entire world were someone’s dream?
To that question alone, there was no clear answer. That worldview could be achieved by assuming a god created the world or the world was a story written by someone, but the existence of that god or storyteller could not be proven from within this world

This was the journal answer right at the beginning before this

What if one tried viewing the world as fictional from the outside perspective?
How did the world come to be?
Rejecting all but the Law of Identity would leave yourself facing the one Law of Identity all alone. That would be one origin. It was possible the one having the dream lived in a world that was itself the dream of someone in another world that was again someone else’s dream, but even if that chain continued back infinitely, one specific origin could be found by facing that one Law of Identity.

The second quote just gave a possibility on how the world might be structured. This already removed anything called The dream Hierarchy, dream within a dream is just based on assumptions

I have already answered these before. A story writer or dreamer will be a part of someone else's story or dream, that is, there will be a story writer in someone's story. I don't see how this refutes the dream hierarchy. this is a scan that further supports what we call on the contrary. A 4D story writer will be writing a story with 3D characters, but a 5D story writer will be writing that story writer is writing a 3D story. there will be a story writer in the story 4 dimensional story writer

 

[Lormac_CC]

I have already answered these before. A story writer or dreamer will be a part of someone else's story or dream, that is,

This was all an assumption on how the world was structured. If there is a scan it would be helpful.

I don't see how this refutes the dream hierarchy.

It quite refutes it. The only thing that seems to show the existence of a hierarchy can't prove it but drops it as a possibility

4D story writer will be writing a story with 3D characters, but a 5D story writer will be writing that story writer is writing a 3D story. there will be a story writer in the story 4 dimensional story writer

Scan for this because the scan above doesn't proof a thing. The scan tries to prove the existence of the Hierarchy but doesn't. If there are other scans that supports it, it would be helpful

 

[AKUTO123]

Everything you just said is made up tho, not actual in-verse evidences.
I'm in favor of using the lesser amount of assumptions by sheer logic, aka not invent anything.

The things I say are also the things that are said in the novel.
Chapter 4: Countless Universes
Opening up all possibilities may have been a mistake.

The s.p.a.ce itself was finite and the characters were finite, but the combinations were infinite. Opening up the possibilities was not just a concept. It actually released the walls of the world that supposedly existed within Akuto.
this scan says exactly what I'm talking about "Releasing the worlds inside the Akuto" so I'm not making anything up. At the very beginning of volume 13 chapter4 it is said that this is what Akuto did. and after a while, it is stated that the extra-universal gods that Akuto fights in endless possibilities are a part of Akuto's story. Are you saying the extra universal gods are part of his story but not infinite possibilities? So he fought within his story, which means he was actually fighting in his mind, in his dream? I'm sorry, but I don't think it's something I made up, I'm just trying to make the most logical interpretation based on the data I have.

 

[Lormac_CC]

A 4D story writer will be writing a story with 3D characters, but a 5D story writer will be writing that story writer is writing a 3D story. there will be a story writer in the story 4 dimensional story writer

Infact, the story doesn't support this. The fact TLOI, is supposed to be at the top is directly compared to the first layer

 

[AKUTO123]

Scan for this because the scan above doesn't proof a thing. The scan tries to prove the existence of the Hierarchy but doesn't. If there are other scans that supports it, it would be helpful

My purpose was to explain why the term story-within-story does not disprove a hierarchy, but rather proves it. I presented it as an example to explain it 3D writer 4D writer 5D writer.

 

[AKUTO123]

Infact, the story doesn't support this. The fact TLOI, is supposed to be at the top is directly compared to the first layer

I think it is necessary to look at the concept of deus ex machine here. This is how hiroshi and bouchiro describe themselves because . Deus ex machina (deī ex māchinīs, plural deus ex māchinā) (pronunciation: deus eks machina); A Latin phrase used in a fiction or drama for an unexpected, artificial or impossible character, instrument or event to appear unexpectedly in the flow of the script, for example, for the narrator to wake up and realize that everything was a dream, or for an angel to suddenly appear to solve problems.[1 ] The literal translation is "god from the machine" and it was used in the Ancient Greek theater to mean that the character portraying a god was lowered from above with the help of a crane (machina). so here their feature is highlighted, it is special to them. not related to the other people and structure of the story.this is a privilege given to those two by the author. it has nothing to do with other hierarchies or anything like that.

 

[Tarang123]

... that's actually a decent argument for high 1-A.

There being a countless number of 1A things and a being above all that would only be a layer without further context

 

[AKUTO123]

that is, these two are the people the author uses to solve the story, and knowing that it is the fiction he is talking about here comes from. In other words, they are special people sent by God for the end of the story. Their situation will be completely opposite to the rest of the story. This is the deus ex machine.