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I attempt to tear the wiki asunder except i'm just stealing some guys meme and this has spiralled radically out of control please help

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Narratives aren't dimensions.

The aliens were talking geometric dimensions, which no god-tier of the verse has said anything about.
 
"Layers" is obviously referring to groups of infinite dimensions.

"Said dimensions are layered" - the statement.
 
I'm just gonna point out that there very well might be 8, 9, 26, 12, or 10 dimensions as well depending on which theory you go with, although none of them have been truly proven; and 5 is the most we can currently verify, although even that is debated, and I mean we even could potentially have infinite spatio-temporal dimensions, since they can be mathematically proven or conceptualized (and it's pretty likely we have a multiverse, we're just not sure the type) If you go with Platonism, we have Outerversal realms too but....um....

rant concludes cause I'm being a dumb showoff nerd

But Azzy pretty much articulated what I was trying to say.
 
When the man, the myth, the meme who birthed the very meme you stole finds out you stole his meme.
 
Wait, what? The sentence directly before this one just said the aliens could measure and support 196,884 dimensions. But now there are multiple layers of infinity even though nobody here can actually measure them?

This is never stated anywhere in the instance. First, the aliens tell us how many dimensions there are in the observable region of space-time, and then they tell us how many there are in all of it.

"Observable", in this context, is the number of dimensions that can be observed by any means. Speaking in terms of human science, the three classical dimensions would fit the bill here.

"Unobservable" refers to the dimensions that definitely exist, but that can't be actually observed. Think of the fourth dimension as an example. They even mention it in the log.

It makes zero sense for them to know there are many layers of infinity (even going as far as noting that the exact number is unknown, but that they DO confirmedly exist) if they didn't know there was an infinite amount of dimensions to begin with.

Because if we go by the previous sentence, it certainly isn't the aliens.

This isn't implied in any way, and the "however" is there to bridge the 196,884 observable dimensions and the infinite unobservable dimensions. Both claims are work of the Kunskapen. If they weren't, the author would have pointed it out, or at least left something that implies tis. It would also render the dialogue moot.

My God, it's like it's self aware.

This has already been debunked. The "abide by the rules" was placed there to clarify that they are not denying the research in any way, they are saying that it is against the rules to use it. Why? Because it would be a security breach.
 
Additionally, the entirety of the statement is considered better than the current scientific theories. Therefore it's not speculation in any way or shape, since this is the literal definition of a scientific theory:

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world."

It'd also make no sense for a hypothesis to be held in the same regard as a fact. They never make any distinction between both facts in terms of validity. The burden of proof is on who disagrees.

That's roughly my counter.
 
The thing is, even if there are infinite dimensions, why would characters scale to that? That was my argument with the Q thing.
 
Yaldabaoth can destroy all dimensions, all iterations of reality, all bits of existence, and literally everything.
 
Was this stated by a source that would have known of the infinite dimensions?

How is it known that it's not just talking about the "observable," dimensions?
 
Yes. It was stated by someone who knew all the legends of the higher Gods.

For the same reason we already accept Yaldabaoth destroying the unobservable dimensions ("uncountable, unobservable vectors") too; all dimensions and all realities implies all dimensions. This would include the unobservable ones, as they are also dimensions.
 
Back, so I guess I'll address this.

"This is never stated anywhere in the instance."

Yes it is. "While mainstream science widely accepts the existence of at least four dimensions, the library supports and lists evidence of the existence of at least 196,884 observable dimensions; that is, the number of dimensions that can be safely cataloged."

"and then they tell us how many there are in all of it."

No, they what they state is that these layered infinites are there. That's it. However, what we're told is that they have evidence of 196,884 spatial dimensions. We are never told of actual tangible evidence for anything beyond that.

""Observable", in this context, is the number of dimensions that can be observed by any means. Speaking in terms of human science, the three classical dimensions would fit the bill here. "Unobservable" refers to the dimensions that definitely exist, but that can't be actually observed. Think of the fourth dimension as an example. They even mention it in the log."

This comparison does not work. In said log, the 4th dimension is mentioned as one of the dimensions we accept in mainstream science. Never is it treated as "unobservable" or likened to the infinity that cannot be cataloged. In fact, it is directly likened to the 196,884 that these aliens can prove.

"It makes zero sense for them to know there are many layers of infinity (even going as far as noting that the exact number is unknown, but that they DO confirmedly exist) if they didn't know there was an infinite amount of dimensions to begin with."

Except they don't know they exist. That is an assumption. They are stated to be able and prove 196,884. The rest are tacked on, and we are never told that there is any proof of these.

"This isn't implied in any way, and the "however" is there to bridge the 196,884 observable dimensions and the infinite unobservable dimensions. Both claims are work of the Kunskapen. If they weren't, the author would have pointed it out, or at least left something that implies tis. It would also render the dialogue moot."

I don't actually understand what you're getting at here. Firstly, we are told they have proof and evidence for 196,884 dimensions. Anything beyond that is meaningless if this advanced race does not have proof for it and instead treats it as a theory. Second, this being the work of the same author does not make something nonsensical make any more sense, unless we assume he meant the aliens theorize that these infinite dimensions exist. Third, "something that can be proven" refers directly to the thing we were told there is proof for. "the library supports and lists evidence of the existence of at least 196,884 observable dimensions".

"This has already been debunked. The "abide by the rules" was placed there to clarify that they are not denying the research in any way, they are saying that it is against the rules to use it. Why? Because it would be a security breach."

I would post that "missing the joke" gif with Data, but I respect you way to much for that.

"Additionally, the entirety of the statement is considered better than the current scientific theories. Therefore it's not speculation in any way or shape, since this is the literal definition of a scientific theory:"

"Better" because it is from an advanced race with resources way beyond that of humanity. It does not mean these infinite dimensions exist if this race does not have proof of it, but it does mean those 196,884 dimensions exist, since there is directly stated to be evidence for it.

Though this all ties into something much more important I want to bring up, which I'll bring up in my next comment.
 
Now for the more important thing I wanted to bring up; canon. Because this is the perfect time to do it.

I'm going to be blunt about it. Our current standards for Foundation canon are completely ******. As in, "we have none". Here's what we wrote on the SCP Foundation verse page.

"Only powerscale when the SCP or object in question is explicitly referenced by other SCPs or tales. Don't forget to treat certain feats as outliers. The rating of the SCP or tale should hint to that.

Also, please take into account that due to the fact that the SCP Foundation has no solid canon, but a "fluid" canon which is subject to different interpretations and headcanons by various members, and Tales are essentially a sort of psuedo-fanfiction, it is best if a Tale was written by the original author of the SCP/is considered an integral part of the "mythos" related to the SCP before you use it to index powers. SCPs are bound by a similar restriction; references to SCPs in other SCPs should be treated the same way as Tales in the more notable cases. For example, according to one SCP the entire Foundation is just the imagination of a girl with psychological problems, whereas most other pages on the site treat it as a real entity."

You see the above? That's bullshit. Those guidelines haven't been followed for as long as I can remember, and that's kind of a big problem. You know how this relates? Because, as I figured I'd bring up now, we are now attempting to powerscale a major chunk of the entire verse to something in a collaboration in a section written by a user who has done nothing except stuff in the sandbox for the past year, and whose last contribution to an actual tale was straight up reverted. Not knocking the guy, but this is pretty important.

We put up these guidelines specifically to stop stuff along the lines of "some random guy writes some random thing in the lowest form of 'canon' and we rescale everything". Yet we've never really followed through on this.

That's not all. We seem to treat everything written wherever for any character as equally canon, no matter who wrote it or what it contradicts. 682 is the patron saint of this crap, as he has like five different origin stories that we scramble to unify, even though it's all stuff written in different stories by different authors with drastically different intent.

This is the current official stance on "canon" that the site has. Here is the accompanying link.

"The idea that there is no canon is a bit silly at times. It's not that we don't have any. It's that we have a multitude which touch, cross, and dip into each other. It's up to you, as the reader, to decide what you believe and what you embrace as the heart of the universe."

Notice that the Foundation does not have "a" canon. It has many separate groups of canon that sometimes crossover with others, when the authors have something in mind.

This is drastically different from what we have set up, right now. That's part of the problem.
 
I still think that Azathoth makes good sense.
 
I'll be honest. I'm not as familiar with SCP Foundation as some of the other people here are, and as far as most SCP-related CRTs and discussions go, I've largely been opting to remain silent. But I feel like Azzy just managed to articulate everything I've been thinking about over the last month or so, at least in regards to the verse and how we treat it around here.

Everybody seems to be so caught up with getting the SCPs upgraded using every single bit of info that they find, that nobody's really taking the time to look at how contradictory this shit has gotten, or how much sense the individual tales make in context with each other. As far as I can see, we're just taking things from the Canon Hub with little regard as to who made them and whether or not the logic within each is able to stand on its own two legs when placed next to everything else.

If I had to liken this to anything, it would be Image Comics. For those that haven't taken a trip to that verse's page in a while (I'm sure there are at least a few, since nobody on this wiki uses 90% of those characters for anything), there's a note there that contains this important bit right here:

Power-scaling between different Image Comics comicbook titles is generally unreliable.

Basically, with certain exception (such as the various titles directly overseen by Robert Kirkman, or Todd McFarlane, and respectively closely connect to the events of Invincible, or Spawn alone) each of them has a continuity that is only reasonably consistent with itself. The authors are sometimes allowed to use each other's characters, but the stories do not affect or reflect the other sections of Image comicbooks at all.

Much like what's currently the case with SCP, there are so many writers screwing around in Image that the things we except as canon to those characters need to be picked and chosen carefully. If we were to approach that verse the same way we've been doing with SCP Foundation, we would wind up with the same problems we've got here; upgrading/re-scaling everyone major every time some new cross-story happens, having most of the cast basically leap to god-tier status due to scaling from someone else who they encountered in some one-off, and a general mess of other problems as far as cataloging everyone in the verse.

The same could be said if we were to start incorporating the Extended Mythos into the Cthulhu Mythos page and re-scaling everything based on tales some random person decided to write about Nyarlathotep and Cthulhu.

This is honestly just my own personal take on it, but I stand by it regardless. Things need to change.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
The same could be said if we were to start incorporating the Extended Mythos into the Cthulhu Mythos page and re-scaling everything based on tales some random person decided to write about Nyarlathotep and Cthulhu.
Click to expand...
This is incredibly accurate, and part of why we only use the original Mythos as "canon". I don't want the same catastrophe to happen with this.
 
I agree with Azzy. Since this is SCP we're talking about here (something that had to be debated extensively to even be on this wiki), our guidelines regarding it should be clearer. We should use any measures to prevent any powerscaling or tiering mess. We already have that problem with titans such as Marvel, DC, and Pokemon, and even a series with (more or less) one writer, such as Dragonball.

I'd also prefer if SCP, which a lot of people here are in love with it seems, doesn't have to turn into one the above mentioned headaches.
 
@Sera

Agreed (Although Matthew and I have at least been trying to improve most o the Marvel and DC as well as we can, despite the inherent massive inconsistencies between writers).
 
"The idea that there is no canon is a bit silly at times. It's not that we don't have any. It's that we have a multitude which touch, cross, and dip into each other. It's up to you, as the reader, to decide what you believe and what you embrace as the heart of the universe."

Why can't this be seen as a compossible story from a multitude of authors?
 
I am not familiar with SCP, but if it is anything like Marvel, probably because they constantly contradict each other, and are usually not even all aware of most other relevant works that they affect.
 
ProspectX said:
Why can't this be seen as a compossible story from a multitude of authors?
Click to expand...
Because it's not. That's what the individual "canons" listed on the page I linked are. Most of the rest of the time, the Foundation is more a setting for stories to take place in. The problem comes when we try to link everything together, as that pretty explicitly doesn't work.

This is also the same reason we don't use the expanded Cthulhu Mythos. Do you know how fast shit would hit the fan?
 
So the "setting" in other words, never directly relate between each canon?

That also depends on many authors there are, which is?
 
Differing number of authors between canons. Depends on how concise they want to keep it and how much collaboration is involved. As for the whole site, it obviously varies depending on when you check. I don't know if you mean contributing members as a whole or not.
 
Okay, then this supposed collaboration never was a fixed thing? Is that the point of their message?

The total contributants could changed, meaning i'm not familar with SCP to know how much their collective effort was initially from the first chapter/episode. So these other members also help the authors?
 
It all depends on if a certain member wants to collaborate or not, or if you're writing under a more accessible collab file (which the thing in the OP is).

If we only went by the absolute "original/oldest" SCPs, we wouldn't have very many profiles. It's not about that. It's more about establishing some sort of proper scaling, because our current method of dealing with it isn't remotely close to how the actual site deals with it.
 
So It's not about originality. But how much this collaboration can extend without the canons contradicting each other.
 
What if we treat the different canons as seperate timelines, or narratives if you would. That way, they don't contradict each other.
 
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