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Huge Rakudai Downgrade Pt. 1

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Can we like, stop referencing masada for a single second? If you got problems with their ratings and how they got it, make a CRT to debunk and stop just trying to shove it into unrelated discussions.

But, on the topic, it would be way better to get direct scans from the novels (something Masada did, btw, so stop saying its the same case) than just from the summaries of a fan wiki
 
Sorta weird to see Ovens without red on his names. Anyways, I'm nuetral on this, but I remember GinSan verifyed translations for Alovenas, so I don't think she's a problem.
 
I'll agree with anything that gets rid of any changes and upgrades based on volume 13 and further.

I honestly had no idea of this and am genuinely surprised it got passed.
 
There weren't much "upgrades". Just new keys/profiles. But no matter what the conclusion is i am SEVERELY against removing 3 profiles and about 4 keys from the verse for no apparent reason. If push comes to shove i can put them all "on hold" (unusable), as it seems plain dumb to delete profiles.

But as said above, i am vouching for the "reading the unedited versions of the summaries and seeing if it's still ok" idea. Anyone against this and for what reasons?
 
I do agree with earl on this part.

Straight up terminating the keys and profiles doesn't seem to be the best solution.
 
I am also fine with if somebody finds the raw scans for any currently used feats and asks people fluent in Japanese to translate/verify them.
 
If the stuff in the keys and profiles are based on said summaries, though, they should still get deleted. Save it in a sandbox if you want, but as it is now it is not usable and shouldn't exist.

And the issue isn't that they are summaries, is that they are second hand information with literally no way to confirm on them without any sort of access to the actual novels. So unedited or not, they will remain unusuable without actual scans from the novels as backing.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
If the stuff in the keys and profiles are based on said summaries, though, they should still get deleted. Save it in a sandbox if you want, but as it is now it is not usable and shouldn't exist.

And the issue isn't that they are summaries, is that they are second hand information with literally no way to confirm on them without any sort of access to the actual novels. So unedited or not, they will remain unusuable without actual scans from the novels as backing.
Click to expand...
This makes sense to me.
 
Lance seems to be making sense, don't just use a second hand source without a direct and agreed upon translation.
 
Like I said, Sandbox them, but they aren't staying there. Making them unusable is nonsense as is keeping things the same but saying "we ain't sure yet".

Is just needlessly confusing, and copy pasting the sandboxed versions with all of the stuff if they are still applicable after you can get your hands on the novel isn't hard at all.
 
Lancer makes sense to me, if we let it stay in the profile it will makes people confused regarding the usable and unusable ability, also Rakudai ability have complex mechanic , unless those ability is been translated i think we should remove it, summaries alone will not makes us understand how the ability work, im myself didnt understand how several ability in Rakudai work as i don't get the scan when Im ask them.
 
It's not a thron on my side, I'm ok with Alovenas stuff, I'm just pulling his own card against him, basic arguing techniques.
 
That's not basic arguing techniques, that's... Shifting the topic.

The topic is Rakudai, and that is breaking the rules. If you wanna talk about Alovenas, a thread dedicated to that would be best.
 
Wdym? Alovenas stuff is translated and have actual Excerpt, i said we cannot give someone ability based on summary, maybe this also the reason you cannot give me the scan when Im asking them.
 
Again, I don't want to talk about Alovenas, I'm perfectly fine with her. And that's basic technique when on a debate, I learned this kind of stuff on high school, using the opposing side's argument against them is something I learned from there, but I must admit it's harder in practice than in thoery.
 
Not sure it is quite what you are doing here. Because at that point, what are you arguing that is related to the actual topic at hand?

Still, I see no reasoning why we should keep the changes, so putting the stuff to be deleted in a sandbox and deleting is best.
 
I agree with Raven up there, deleting the whole thing is a bad idea, why not take out the things that come from the summary or those taken from the other wiki?

If it takes keys or abilities away then sorry but it's better than deleting the whole profile and the ones interested in said profile can ask for TLs here, to our multilingual memebers and add everything back (if it is legit of course)
 
I mean, is why I bring up the possibility of simply saving them to a sandbox until such a time comes. But keeping them on the verse like they are approved shouldn't be a thing.

For the profiles with keys, remove any relevant keys and abilities derived from the summary and keep a sandbox of the profile but with the deleted stuff, unlike the one in the verse page without it.
 
One shows Ikki stabbing Or-Gaule on the brain and him smiling at it, the other shows Stella on Excessive Awakening. You literally don't need more context on that to see those are legit.
 
Imagine, if you will, those images without knowledge of the text behind them.

We are axing the text, therefore the images have no context to them.
 
It seems like the consensus here is to remove the statistics keys derived from untranslated parts of the source material.
 
I agree with removing the keys that come from summaries. I think I took issue with this with Earl in private but never got around to making a thread.

Wait until we have raw text either fully translated, or have partial translations evaluated/provided by multilingual members.
 
Well, this seems mostly settled then.
 
Sir Ovens said:
Imagine, if you will, those images without knowledge of the text behind them.
We are axing the text, therefore the images have no context to them.
Click to expand...
Without context, a dude laughing while being stabbed in the brain.

And the problem is:

"If we can use WoG from other wikies, why can we not use words by reliable translators"?
 
Without context, it could be an illusion, a clone, a twin brother, etc. That's why context is important.

Because they're not the one who put pen to paper and know exactly what is going on as well as if they were the ones who wrote it.
 
....

That's trying FAR too hard to dismiss scans dude...

Translators know exactly what's going on, as they read what is actually going on. They read the raws and gave us that, same as how they read the raws and give us the translations.
 
Like I said, we need to see this from the context of just the image, and not our prior knowledge from the wiki. That's like using feats from the trailer of a movie and not the actual feat from the movie itself.

The difference between a translator and a WoG is that WoG knows the intent and everything WoG says can be treated as gospel. Translator summaries are nowhere near as accurate as the guy who literally made the series.
 
Yes, but those summaries "did come out of something". I mean seriously, that is a story that flows naturally between chapters, are we just assuming people made all that shit up?

Intent? We don't really use the "author's intent", and idk why that is your argument when by that logic literally every translated verse ever gets nuked from the wiki because it is not translated by the author itself so they do not know the "intent". They are just translating the things they see written and putting them in an easier to write manner, not giving opinions on the series.
 
Can you tell me what tiers the characters from Black Widow will get just from the trailer itself without being incredibly fallacious? The idea is the same here.

I mean we can use the wiki if WoG literally doctors everything. Otherwise the wiki can't be taken as gospel. Translations can be used, sure, when they're the translation of the actual text and not just a detailed summary of them.

This practice sets a bad precedent and shouldn't be used.
 
If the trailer is actually an almost identical summary of the movie, then yes.

And if we take the summary from the first edit it had? Which would be "the detailed summary of what happened in the untranslated novel, so basically the word of the people we've been using for the whole series (as translation is basically word of the translators)". Would you be fine with that?
 
Sir Ovens said:
Imagine, if you will, those images without knowledge of the text behind them.
Click to expand...
I said those pics without their context. One is quite clearly just Ikki stabbing Or-Gaule on the forehead and him smiling because of it. The other is just Stella transformed with the same appearance all other Excessive Awakening users have.
 
And like Sir mentions and points out, without the context it could be anything. The puppet master Or-Gaule could totally not have controlled a puppet that looks like him, right...? We don't know, we don't know anything. So we don't act like we know anything adding abilities until we get the actual text. Stella is no different, unless you just wanna scale people to transformations without knowing the deeper context.

I am worried you both literally don't care about being this damn careless. There is something funny about the research on the subject of conversation, an interesting detail called distortion, like that "make someone whisper something to someone, who whispers to another, who whispers to another". Details get changed, forgotten, warped, or we don't know outright how trustworthy the provider is.

Simple. Rakudai isn't special so the things should just be saved elsewhere and deleted until then.
 
Ionliosite said:
I said those pics without their context. One is quite clearly just Ikki stabbing Or-Gaule on the forehead and him smiling because of it. The other is just Stella transformed with the same appearance all other Excessive Awakening users have.
Click to expand...
To be fair, I don't think we do use, or should use, random illustrations from LNs without textual backing, as not all of them literally represent events that happened canonically.
 
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