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Holy Mami vs Caster Merlin

His empathic manipulation doesn't come from anything like a mental attack or telepathy or anything like that. It comes from the way he carrys himself, his mannerisms, his vibes, etc. That just make people act more disarmed. If the abstract can appreciate the personality of a friend or enjoy their personality, then they can be effected by it. Madoka could appreciate Homura as a friend despite being an abstract, and it is basically the same deal. If Mami was an abstract like a mindless force, then of course it would effect her, but I am assuming she isn't more abstract than Madoka

I'm not sure that's right. We don't know exactly, but Merlin scales from comparable swords with blasts that pass several layers of clouds and carry off further by an unknown amount
 
Then he doesn't affect her because he can't affect an abstract and the mind isn't there.

How it works does not matter if he cannot affect an abstract because his wills mannerisms or vibes are not going to affect something that. To him. Isn't hmeven physically there.
 
Saying that he needs the feat of effecting an abstract with his empathic manipulation to have Mami like him and not want to fight him is like saying Homura needs the feat of affecting an abstract with her empathic manipulation to be friends with Madoka. Stop thinking of at as any kind of mental attack.
 
Homura does need a feat.

Her affecting Madoka is a feat

Putting your avatars in a day dream doesn't need to be a mental attack to not do shit to an abstract.

Homura has feats, Merlin does not.
 
You are saying that base Homura being friends with Madoka is a feat of empathetic manipulation? Are you actually ******* serious?

What?
 
Alright. Let's get empathic manipulation and abstract interaction or whatever the equivalent is to base Homura's profile then. Hell, let's get the ability to interact with abstract added to all of the magical girls that Madoka knew because I'm fairly sure she still loved them even after she became an abstract, even if it was not as much as Homura

Being someone's friend is not something you need a feat or any kind ability to be able to do.
 
Actually it very much is, Homura mindhaxing and absorbing Madoka has been a thing for ages though the latter got downgraded.

If a person cannot affect the other, they cannot affect them, how it works is irrelevant if it cannot affect them.

At this point I can wank it to where Merlin can inconclusive YHVH because he feels hatred.
 
You misunderstand. I am not talking about that Homura, who was a witch. I am talking about the scene where Madoka said goodbye to her friend.

Imagine Merlin's empathetic manipulation as the equivalent to passive talk no jutsu. You don't need to effect their brain or mind or anything more than I need to effect your mind for you to like or dislike me.

Idk much about YHVH, but I am fairly sure YHVH would percieve would percieve Merlin's true form if he has any kind of cosmic awareness. Also, does YHVH even have friends?
 
Convincing someone through talking and forcing an avatar into someones day dream are two vastly different things. You are saying that Merlin will put an avatar in her day dream and Incon that way. Rather then Mami just mindhaxing or just leaving on her own fruition

YHVH feels intense hatred towards humans. But Merlins true form is on a higher dimension
 
I ain't talking about the day dream thing. I am talking about his empathic manipulation.

I don't mean true form as in the higher form. I mean his true form as in his form behind the transformation
 
Empathetic manipulation will not manipulate an abstract without feats.

That's....Weird then
 
He isn't "manipulating" them any more than Honura being the friend of madoka is "manipulating" her.

Ye. Merlin is a weird creature
 
That's what we put it down on the profile as. Its more like Empathic Influence or Disarming Presence than Empathic Manipulation, it's all semantics and makes no difference to the match
 
Something else to point out here: Even if Mami's mind hax work on individual incarnations, that will never incapacitate him. She needs to be able to incapacitate him for 24 hours without her involvement which will never happen since every time a lower form of him gets incapacitated another lower form will appear instead
 
Just saying, but if it's empathic manipulation that affects the mind, Mami resists, if it's simply "hey i'm friendly" aura, don't see how that's a problem for Mami given that she has fought her friends more than once, and even killed two Wraiths that had taken the form of her parents to try to ambush her.
 
If she can continue to fight people she doesn't really want to, then I guess she is fine to continue. A berserker mid rampage stopped and talked to him.

I cannot vote since it is my thread, but this may just end up inconclusive
 
Merlin only kept send back avatars in those istances because he knew that if he didn't the world would have ended, which here it's not the case, so he has no reason to bother

and Excalibur is only rated kilometers in range and even Proto Excaliblast has only thusand of meters of range, so Mami vastly outranges, so Mami keeps thinking and mindhaxes the avatars as soon as they pop in to existance

and i'm not buying that Merlin's hax works on a abtract without feats of doing so

so i vote Holy Mami
 
That doesn't change that he does that. Besides, it is more in character than him letting his puppet sit there getting mind haxes for 24 hours.

Cool

You don't get to "not buy it." We have gone over multiple times why it doesn't matter that she is abstract. Although Kal pointed out that it doesn't work for different reasons.

Neither have a way to put the other down.
 
To incapacitate, he must be unable to act without her influence for 24 hours. Her need to continually mind hax the new avatars means that she cannot incap him long term. She cannot win, but neither can he
 
He cannot harm her, meawhile she can

so this fits the bill for incap as Merlin is a situation where he can't retaliate
 
This is assuming Merlin doesn't get incredibly bored and just decide To pull said Avatars away.
 
Overlord775 said:
He cannot harm her, meawhile she can
so this fits the bill for incap as Merlin is a situation where he can't retaliate
Click to expand...
You mean where she gets rid of avatars? Not really dpomf any meaningful harm to him either. Also, it only counts if she puts him into that state. If she does not put him into that state, then it doesn't fit the bill for incapacity.
 
Schnee One said:
This is assuming Merlin doesn't get incredibly bored and just decide To pull said Avatars away.
Click to expand...
He has never done so in lore. Besides, Caster holds enough loyalty to Cheldea, at least as a hobby, that he would not bail as a Caster completely.

I am also pretty sure we don't count characters getting board and not wanting to fight as a way to lose. Otherwise that could open up many matches that would be stomps otherwise as that would be a win condition.
 
We don't in the sense that they will get bored, but Self BFR is a win con

If a character gets stomped repeatedly and decide to bail instead of getting stomped repeatedly, they may have lost, but retreating is an incredibly valid tactic.
 
Attempting to teleport out of range and taking pot shots at someone isn't self BFR, although it would fail anyway.

But the converse, a character stomping someone over and over and then getting board, and leaving would also be valid as a win condition as a consequence. If we assume that a side will just leave if a fight gets too hard or annoying then that also has the consequence of making many matches that would have been stomps valid
 
But he can't do it, his range is terrible by comparison.

It wouldn't be a valid enough win condition to make matches on Stomps, outliving is such an unlikely condition it hardly affects any matches if at all.

Besides, this match is a stomp because Merlin can't do shit and loses
 
Um, what can she do againts time travel? Because he should have that ability, because he sent Bedivere from the present to the past on Camelot Singularity.
 
Schnee One said:
But he can't do it, his range is terrible by comparison.
It wouldn't be a valid enough win condition to make matches on Stomps, outliving is such an unlikely condition it hardly affects any matches if at all.

Besides, this match is a stomp because Merlin can't do shit and loses
Click to expand...
I am aware at this point. I am just clarifying. Merlin may attempt it at some point in the fight but it will fail

In matches where the 2 can hardly effect eachother, it does come up quite a bit actually. Cough cough Monarch of Pointland.

But Mami also has no way to actually incapacitate Merlin long enough for it to count as a win either. Not being able to effect an enemy from the outset does not qualify for incapacity, it only counts if Mami puts Merlin in that state.
 
John985 said:
Um, what can she do againts time travel? Because he should have that ability, because he sent Bedivere from the present to the past on Camelot Singularity.
Click to expand...
Shit you right. He does need time travel. We can go mention it on the nasu thread

I think this just gave Merlin his win condition
 
Monarch of Pointland is a case of people forgetting that Monarch can't affect his opponent. Kinda like when people forget SCP871 is a terrible fighter.

Merlin cannot, will not, and never, do anything to Mami at all. Being in a state for 24 hours where you cannot harm your opponent is the textbook definition of incap
 
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