Hellsing: Schrodinger revision

[Random-Helper323]

Combining with his soul stock, which caused him to be erased =/= would've innately erased his soul stock alongside Alucard, especially when it's arguably implied he's only targeting Alucard himself.

There is an obvious issue of how can he seperate from the soul stock while still retaining the inability to recognise himself, and how can he target Alucard only when he needs to be with the soul stock for Alucard to remain gone.

How exactly would that be a contradiction against Schrodinger specifically targeting Alucard and not his soul stock? honestly that seems like more supporting evidence for our claim more than anything tbh.

The thing is, Schrodinger plus soul stock equals Alucard goes poof and can't come back, remove the soul stock and Alucard returns. So Schrodinger seperating from the soul stock would likely allow Alucard to reappear.

This is why i'm saying we should assume a "possibly" rating, since we're arguing about interpretations which are equally possible. We don't need to go multiple pages arguing the same points over and over again ad nauseam when it isn't needed, nor is it logical.

I can see a possibly being okay for NEP and perhaps Mid-Godly, although I don't think anyone ever suggested a possibly for Mid-godly. Schrodinger is one big "possibly".

 

[Deceived3596]

I can see a possibly being okay for NEP and perhaps Mid-Godly, although I don't think anyone ever suggested a possibly for Mid-godly. Schrodinger is one big "possibly".

I believe Gin already has.

@LordGinSama are you fine with having a "possibly" rating rather then a concrete rating for both NEP and Mid-Godly?.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah I'm game.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I believe Gin already has.

Gin only made a possibly suggestion for the NEP. I don't recall any such thing for Mid-Godly.

Regarding abstract existence, doesn't that have to involve some form of concept, or can existing only as one's own concept qualify? Even that seems a bit steep...

 

[LordGinSama]

No it can be a concept, thought, idea, etc. Concepts aren't the only thing AE is tied to.


Also I suggested a possibly awhile ago.

 

[Dereck03]

Hellsing ends directly after Alucard learns how to control Schrodinger's power's, but he's already been shown to have access to Schrodinger's abilities granted by his existence.

Your description has nothing to do with what the scan present.... Alucard just said that he's killing his own lives and he's everywhere and nowhere....

using Schrodinger Alucard can choose to become non-existant, including his mind and soul since the blood houses both.

I was expecting something like this description and it's not at all.... I disagree, there's nothing that proof NEP 3 here.

 

[LordGinSama]

Your description has nothing to do with what the scan present.... Alucard just said that he's killing his own lives and he's everywhere and nowhere....

Via using Schrodinger, Alucard can only do so after killing all his lives and then he has full control over Schrodinger powers. "Existing everywhere and nowhere." is a Schrodinger existence thing.

I was expecting something like this description and it's not at all.... I disagree, there's nothing that proof NEP 3 here.

Schrodinger is a walking paradox, it's definitely type 3 NEP. As Schrodinger can choose to become non-existant as per Alucard turning into Non Existence after absorbing Schrodinger.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Hellsing ends directly after Alucard learns how to control Schrodinger's power's, but he's already been shown to have access to Schrodinger's abilities granted by his existence.

If it is an ability, then I only can see void manipulation (second possible use).

 

[LordGinSama]

If it is an ability, then I only can see void manipulation (second possible use).

Not an ability but something stemming from Schrodinger's being. When I say "powers." I don't mean it in that sense, meant more like controlling the nature of Schrodinger's existence since he was previously erased and paradoxed before he could use Schrodinger properly.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Via using Schrodinger, Alucard can only do so after killing all his lives and then he has full control over Schrodinger powers. "Existing everywhere and nowhere." is a Schrodinger existence thing.

I can confirm this is true. We don't see all of Schrodinger's abilities used by Alucard, but what Schrodinger had was a unique nature, which Alucard has assimilated.

Schrodinger is a walking paradox, it's definitely type 3 NEP. As Schrodinger can choose to become non-existant as per Alucard turning into Non Existence after absorbing Schrodinger.

I have to partially disagree on the choosing to be non-existent. Schrodinger doesn't show an ability to choose not to exist unless throwing himself into a London slushy and being mentally overwhelmed counts. It's more like he can interpret his own existence as he chooses, almost like he's a projection of his own imagination.

 

[LordGinSama]

I have to partially disagree on the choosing to be non-existent. Schrodinger doesn't show an ability to choose not to exist unless throwing himself into a London slushy and being mentally overwhelmed counts. It's more like he can interpret his own existence as he chooses, almost like he's a projection of his own imagination

Hm then how would you word it? I definitely disagree with it being Void Manipulation since that doesn't make much sense.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Hm then how would you word it? I definitely disagree with it being Void Manipulation since that doesn't make much sense.

Well, the important detail is that his body is both his true self and some kind of projection. I honestly think my earlier description of being projected from his own imagination is pretty apt, when he can literally imagine himself uninjured and in any location, and he's there. Notably Alucard actually retained his vampiric regeneration in addition to Schrodinger's ability, as we see him heal from a bullet wound. Technically what Schrodinger has isn't regeneration so much as an ability to decide his own state of being.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Not an ability but something stemming from Schrodinger's being. When I say "powers." I don't mean it in that sense, meant more like controlling the nature of Schrodinger's existence since he was previously erased and paradoxed before he could use Schrodinger properly.

Thanks for clarifying your terms. It cleared up. Seems like @Dereck03 said, there is a possibility for NEP 3. But also in the same time, there is no clear context or feat whatsoever. So I would suggest having it possibly rating.

 

[LordGinSama]

Well, the important detail is that his body is both his true self and some kind of projection. I honestly think my earlier description of being projected from his own imagination is pretty apt, when he can literally imagine himself uninjured and in any location, and he's there. Notably Alucard actually retained his vampiric regeneration in addition to Schrodinger's ability, as we see him heal from a bullet wound. Technically what Schrodinger has isn't regeneration so much as an ability to decide his own state of being.

Actually that reminds me, with that being said shouldn't Schrodinger and Alucard also have some form of Subjective Reality?


Definitely agree with what you've said there.

 

[LordGinSama]

Actually yeah Schrodinger's abilities would fit more in with Subjective Reality as opposed to the Immersion he has since SR already covers Immersion and NEP.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Actually that reminds me, with that being said shouldn't Schrodinger and Alucard also have some form of Subjective Reality?


Definitely agree with what you've said there.

I raised Subjective Reality as an idea in the last thread, and Antvasima reckoned it didn't fit because it only covered his own physical state.

However, if he is a physical manifestation of his own thoughts, an argument could be made for abstract. I don't know what else there is as an option.

There is one other thing I think should be altered about his Schrodinger key if it hasn't already, and that's his AP being listed as likely. As I said above about him retaining his shadow abilities and vampiric regeneration, he clearly retained his vampiric powers in addition to Schrodinger's. We can say his soul stock was his power source, but not physically it wasn't. It was after his soul stock was destroyed that he tore apart Anderson and fought against Walter. So unless we argue that having Schrodinger's powers somehow nullified Alucard's physical strength, he should definitely have the same AP he had when he ripped Anderson apart.

 

[ImmortalDread]

AE type 1 is strong in VSBW. You need feats for affecting those beings. All the supporting evidence are going in that direction, so it seems fine.

 

[LordGinSama]

I raised Subjective Reality as an idea in the last thread, and Antvasima reckoned it didn't fit because it only covered his own physical state.

Ant admittedly doesn't have the best of judgment when it comes to powers and abilities tbh, I myself think SR is perfectly fine for Schrodinger.

There is one other thing I think should be altered about his Schrodinger key, and that's his AP being likely. As I said above about him retaining his shadow abilities and vampiric regeneration, he clearly retained his vampiric powers in addition to Schrodinger's. We can say his soul stock was his power source, but not physically it wasn't. It was after his soul stock was destroyed that he tore apart Anderson and fought against Walter. So unless we argue that having Schrodinger's powers somehow nullified Alucard' s physical strength, he should definitely have the same AP he had when he ripped Anderson apart.

Big agree here, thank you. I never thought the Soul-stock had anything to do with his sheer physical strength, instead I assumed it acted as the battery / power supply for Alucard's power. Plus the whole "he's weaker without that many souls." is heavily contradicted by the fact that Level 0 gives him the most AP despite him releasing all those souls.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Ant admittedly doesn't have the best of judgment when it comes to powers and abilities tbh, I myself think SR is perfectly fine for Schrodinger.

The ability only affects Alucard himself, not anything else. Is that okay to call subjective reality?

Big agree here, thank you. I never thought the Soul-stock had anything to do with his sheer physical strength

Anderson set fire to Alucard's whole soul supply, and they burned to ashes. It was after that happened that Alucard tore Anderson into two pieces. The same Anderson that matched Alucard when he had his soul army still.

instead I assumed it acted as the battery / power supply for Alucard's power.

It's hard to tell where his own power ends and his army's power begins.

We can be sure that abilities he displayed after losing his soul army are his own power, such as his physical power and speed, his illusions, his shapeshifting, etc.

We can also be fairly sure that abilities displayed by other vampires scale to his own power, such as Seras' resistances and Zorin's mental attacks. If their abilities come from weapons like Rip's bullet or Tubalcain's regeneration reduction, it might be more scientific or something.

I do notice though that Rip orders her bullet to move the same way Alucard orders things to move, maybe it's not exactly telekinesis they're using?

Plus the whole "he's weaker without that many souls." is heavily contradicted by the fact that Level 0 gives him the most AP despite him releasing all those souls.

In fairness that AP is the army itself pouring out, not so much his own physical power. But the fact that he can still tear Anderson apart and take hits from Walter after his soul stock got burned to ashes means he physically scales without his soul stock.

 

[Dereck03]

@LordGinSama I suggest you updating your OP with the new proposals or whatsoever or make a TL; DR of what's being suggested based in the previous long discussion.

 

[LordGinSama]

You ask of this right after i start drinking


Will do.

 

[azontr]

Gin is an alcoholic.

 

[LordGinSama]

Gin is an alcoholic.

Azontr is gay.

 

[azontr]

We both speak the obvious.

Also, it seems the changes in the newly revised OP have been accepted, no? Or is there still argumentation?

 

[Random-Helper323]

Wasn't it kind of revised so the Mid-Godly and NEP were possibly? I'm also not sure Schrodinger can choose not to exist exactly.

We also haven't truly figured out what nature best suits Schrodinger. We were going over abstract existence and subjective reality as two options.

 

[PainKiller07]

Imaginary numbers do not even grant NEP to begin with. AT maximum effort, abstract existence if there is any context.

It should be at least NEP1 since imaginary = illusionary =unreal. Tho I agree that being NEP2 is kinda too stretchy.

You need to prove that Binary in the verse follows the system where 1 can be represented for anything that exists, conceptually while 0 is the exact opposite (the very concept of nonexistence). That way Imaginary numbers may seem to qualify for NEP2

Guess will just wait if any new arguments would be brought

 

[LordGinSama]

OP has been updated with what's been accepted so far.

 

[Random-Helper323]

The previous thread also included consideration of incorporeality.

 

[LordGinSama]

The previous thread also included consideration of incorporeality.

I believe that's covered by NEP but we can introduce that as well.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It should be at least NEP1 since imaginary = illusionary =unreal. Tho I agree that being NEP2 is kinda too stretchy.

You need to prove that Binary in the verse follows the system where 1 can be represented for anything that exists, conceptually while 0 is the exact opposite (the very concept of nonexistence). That way Imaginary numbers may seem to qualify for NEP2

Guess will just wait if any new arguments would be brought

Bruh moment. These arguments about imaginary numbers are actually funny. “Unreal” = directly nonexistent. Ah, yes.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Can you guys drop it? It is literally quantum physics reference.

 

[LordGinSama]

Can you guys drop it? It is literally quantum physics reference.

Proof?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Proof?

I would rather not take this quote of the scan as rhetorical. Again, even if you interpret it as “illusion”, it would not qualify. You saw, as next, the definition was leading to be pure abstract.

 

[Deceived3596]

Frauen moment.

 

[Random-Helper323]

So imaginary numbers are a necessary part of quantum physics. That definitely further proves Schrodinger's power is quantum mechanical in nature. And since some theories believe reality is shaped by perception, including the Schrodinger cat theory, it further tells us that Schrodinger's reality is shaped by his perception.

However, it does sound as if imaginary numbers simply being square roots of negative numbers could go against the idea of them not existing. Although the whole reason for NEP is that Alucard's body went poof. Of course, NEP doesn't seem to be an ability Schrodinger can turn on and off at will anyway, so I'm not sure it's even applicable in combat anyway.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Him having no body is literally the reason why he has AE type 1.

 

[Random-Helper323]

It's fairly clear that he always projects himself wherever he wants, and can always exist how he chooses. We don't know if he can choose not to exist though. It is however very clear that his location and state of health are controlled by his perception. In other words he can have his head blown off in London and then decide he wants to be uninjured and in Hawaii watching the ocean, and that's where he'll be.

His thoughts literally control his position and his level of damage. If we were to think of the damage he takes as a bar from 0-100, with 0 being uninjured and 100 being smashed into a spray of blood, he simply always decides he wants to be at 0. And if we look at locations as coordinates rather than just going by their names, he can decide which coordinates to be at as well. In short, simplifying this whole thing down to these numbers, we can see how Alucard decides these numbers by deciding that's where and how he wants to be. In other words, his body behaves like the dream body of a lucid dreamer, except projected into the real world instead of a dream.

The one weakness this seemingly has is that it doesn't seem to work while others are observing him, but interestingly, unlike Schrodinger, Alucard also has his vampiric healing as shown when he has a strand of shadow matter hanging out of a bullet wound in his face which promptly heals. So that restriction Schrodinger had where you could smash his head then watch him and he might not be able to reform? Alucard will just use his vampiric healing instead, just like he did when Integra shot him.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This is my whole disagreement coming from, there is no mention/feat/statement of even being “a nonexistent being” and imaginary number is literally only reference his nature or his theory.

 

[Random-Helper323]

What I was describing above was a being composed of his own thoughts. I'm not sure if non-existence is accurate, to be honest. And certainly no evidence exists that he can choose to stop existing and choose to exist again like flipping a power on and off. Of course if he is a projection of his own thoughts an argument could be made that his true body doesn't exist, but personally I think that clashes with Schrodinger's soul bring absorbed through his body. If the body wasn't his real self, it wouldn't contain his soul.

Honestly, I do find non-existence questionable as an ability. He went poof, but nothing says he can go poof at will then come right back.

 

[PainKiller07]

Friendly reminder you can be both AE and NEP by being a literal "illusion"