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Hellsing: Schrodinger revision

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LordGinSama said:
I'm assuming you don't know the definition of the word "equivocal." that word means open to more than one interpretation. So it's not a "wrong existence" as you say which makes no sense.
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Nope, it also means questionable or ambiguous.
 
Dread said:
Nope, it also means questionable or ambiguous.
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All of those terms are literally interchangeable. "Open to more than one interpretation." would still mean the same thing. Point being that the term doesn't mean "wrong."
 
AerrowStorm1 said:
I'd also like to note that Shrodinger's power is limited by what he does and doesn't know. For example, the losing his guidebook thing but also he states Tubalcain's blood let him know where the secret meeting place was, implying without it he wouldn't have been able to appear there. (Hellsing chapter 23)
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Pretty much irrelevant to this thread, this thread only pertains to some abilities from Schrodinger, not his Teleportation. Also iirc we already accept that weakness awhile ago which is why he isn't omnipresent anymore.
 
Uh... the OP has a bad link for the NEP justification so I can't really evaluate, I'd also appreciate a summary of the reasonings if some were added in the middle of the discussion or something.
 
Eh, may as well evaluate the whole OP as there isn't much.

LordGinSama said:
Since the last Alucard thread was a bit of a clusterfuck thread that lasted months for no reason I'll try to keep this one short and quick to the point.

Alucard in his Schrodinger key should receive Mid-Godly rather than Low-Godly regeneration. It's the same exact feat so the justification would remain the same, just with a different mechanic. In Hellsing we know that blood contains the mind and soul of the person, they are directly related to one another as this mechanism lead to Alucard getting erased from existence, and why he can summon his familiars.

Given Hellsing's blood mechanism Alucard's regeneration should be bumped up to Mid-Godly as his mind, body and soul were erased from existence.
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There's a note on the left part of the first scan straight up clarifying that all of that stuff is just flowery language, and so I'm unsure on the validity of this as the second scan would then fall as a figurative as well, especially as a form of speech is often used with the word "erase" in senses that wouldn't inherently be EE for our purposes, like erasing ink from a paper, when technically you're just moving the particles elsewhere.

LordGinSama said:
Another thing he should get is NEP (Nature 3, aspect Type 1 & 3.) using Schrodinger Alucard can choose to become non-existant, including his mind and soul since the blood houses both.

Also it should be noted that Alucard is capable of killing his own lives directly so his attacks would be capable of dealing direct damage to one's mind and soul.
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Uh... does he displays incorporeality or similar? Merely being stated to have a paradoxical existencial status of sorts shouldn't be enough on its own if it hasn't been portrayed to be of significance to begin with.

And this'd just be incorporeality over NEP if the first part over a soul and a mind not being bound to blood is correct, TBH I'm unsure if it'd be valid in the first place even then, as the blood here is clearly portrayed as a physical thing, and it's not like special methods are required in-verse to interact with it, a mind/soul being incorporeal is crucial for it to be usable like that for our purposes, and while that's the default to assume and all, if we go with the idea they're bound to a physical substance, that'd imply otherwise.
 
Bobsican said:
There's a note on the left part of the first scan straight up clarifying that all of that stuff is just flowery language, and so I'm unsure on the validity of this as the second scan would then fall as a figurative as well, especially as a form of speech is often used with the word "erase" in senses that wouldn't inherently be EE for our purposes, like erasing ink from a paper, when technically you're just moving the particles elsewhere.
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1: It's literally not flowerly language, it's a thing in the verse that's outright shown as a legitimate mechanism in the verse given what Alucard can do via blood Manipulation, he absorbs the minds and souls of his opponent via blood so its obviously not to be taken as literal flowerly language.


2: Alucard was erased, this was shown.



3: We asked you to comment on the NEP stuff, not the entire OP which has been accepted already.
Bobsican said:
does he displays incorporeality or similar? Merely being stated to have a paradoxical existencial status of sorts shouldn't be enough on its own if it hasn't been portrayed to be of significance to begin with.
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He's composed of his own thoughts so yes.
Bobsican said:
And this'd just be incorporeality over NEP if the first part over a soul and a mind not being bound to blood is correct, TBH I'm unsure if it'd be valid in the first place even then, as the blood here is clearly portrayed as a physical thing, and it's not like special methods are required in-verse to interact with it, a mind/soul being incorporeal is crucial for it to be usable like that for our purposes, and while that's the default to assume and all, if we go with the idea they're bound to a physical substance, that'd imply otherwise.
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You missed the point entirely, we've moved from the discussion of the blood housing the mind and soul of the victim which was already accepted, rather we're talking about NEP from this scan. Please stay on topic.
 
Bobsican said:
There's a note on the left part of the first scan straight up clarifying that all of that stuff is just flowery language, and so I'm unsure on the validity of this as the second scan would then fall as a figurative as well, especially as a form of speech is often used with the word "erase" in senses that wouldn't inherently be EE for our purposes, like erasing ink from a paper, when technically you're just moving the particles elsewhere.
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The implication with the erasure is that since Schrodinger can move himself anywhere in the world, it would've had to be more than just moving him elsewhere to stop him like it did. The problem is that no other dimensions are shown or implied to exist in Hellsing. And there is an issue in that some of Alucard's blood was left behind when he vanished.
Bobsican said:
Uh... does he displays incorporeality or similar? Merely being stated to have a paradoxical existencial status of sorts shouldn't be enough on its own if it hasn't been portrayed to be of significance to begin with.
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He can decide not to be injured after someone shoots his head apart, so I'd say yes. He can decide his own state, from his location to his injuries. In fact, he decides his state to such an extent that outside factors like damage can't decide it for him.
Bobsican said:
And this'd just be incorporeality over NEP if the first part over a soul and a mind not being bound to blood is correct, TBH I'm unsure if it'd be valid in the first place even then, as the blood here is clearly portrayed as a physical thing, and it's not like special methods are required in-verse to interact with it, a mind/soul being incorporeal is crucial for it to be usable like that for our purposes, and while that's the default to assume and all, if we go with the idea they're bound to a physical substance, that'd imply otherwise.
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To be honest, I can see this issue. A soul is usually housed in the body in fiction, but still isn't destroyed just because the body is. The soul being absorbed by drinking the blood seems to be a soul manipulation ability Alucard possesses.
LordGinSama said:
1: It's literally not flowerly language, it's a thing in the verse that's outright shown as a legitimate mechanism in the verse given what Alucard can do via blood Manipulation, he absorbs the minds and souls of his opponent via blood so its obviously not to be taken as literal flowerly language.
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This is true, Alucard does this to Rip Van Winkle, Tubalcain, and the armies he fought historically. It can't just be flowery language when we know Alucard does absorb souls that way.
LordGinSama said:
3: We asked you to comment on the NEP stuff, not the entire OP which has been accepted already.
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LordGinSama said:
You missed the point entirely, we've moved from the discussion of the blood housing the mind and soul of the victim which was already accepted, rather we're talking about NEP from this scan. Please stay on topic.
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In fairness, if the soul genuinely is non-physical while the blood is physical it does raise an issue of whether you'd have to erase the soul while erasing the blood. Of course, the OP is going for possibly, which changes things a bit.
LordGinSama said:
He's composed of his own thoughts so yes.
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I can affirm that this is true. Schrodinger can decide where he is and what state he is in, to the point where outside factors can't decide it for him. You can't decide his head is in pieces because you smashed it apart, he decides his head is fine. You can't decide he's trapped in a box, he decides he's back outside the box again.
 
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AerrowStorm1 said:
I'd also like to note that Shrodinger's power is limited by what he does and doesn't know. For example, the losing his guidebook thing but also he states Tubalcain's blood let him know where the secret meeting place was, implying without it he wouldn't have been able to appear there. (Hellsing chapter 23)
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It's not that he wouldn't have been able to appear there exactly, more that he wouldn't have known where to find the people he wants to talk to. It demonstrates that he isn't omnipresent, as an omnipresent being would not have trouble finding things, but it doesn't necessarily prevent his power from going anywhere. Chances are he does have to know the location exists to materialise there, but that's because he has to think that's where he wants to be.

It would have been nice to have seen Alucard use that power for real, because with Alucard being so much smarter and stronger willed than Schrodinger (unstoppably determined genius versus idiot who kills himself on command), it would have been interesting to see how much further he could take that power.
 
LordGinSama said:
Honestly I'd love even a new Hellsing series even if it's just a chapter long, just for more information.
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I think it would be interesting to have a new enemy who's been building up power for the whole time behind the scenes and brings powers never seen before to the series, and perhaps something where Alucard takes the quantum powers further than ever before while Seras breaks new ground with vampiric powers due to her close relationship with her head familiar. Some new never-before-seen powers for Seras and Alucard both.
 
Well, that much is what the OP proposed, and I lacked the time to corroborate in the NEP page, but beyond that yeah, aspects 1 and 3 then.
I'd still think it'd be best to get more trustworthy users to evaluate this, however, NEP is a quite controversial power and all.
 
Main reason I said the above is because I'm unsure if there's sufficient arguments even for a "possibly" TBH, but if others lean to it as well I guess that'd be fine.
 
Bobsican said:
Main reason I said the above is because I'm unsure if there's sufficient arguments even for a "possibly" TBH, but if others lean to it as well I guess that'd be fine.
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Others don't even lean to possibly rating. @Dereck03 and I have explained to it why. Unless we have further evidence, this should not grant much.
 
Looking back to the discussion I share the same thoughts as Dereck, although with the whole implications against this out of blood being a physical thing in regards to souls/minds for the purposes of NEP I may be even more opposed for the premise.
 
Dread said:
Others don't even lean to possibly rating. @Dereck03 and I have explained to it why. Unless we have further evidence, this should not grant much.
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And I've already replied to the both of you. Nothing either one of you have said thus far disqualifies Schrodinger from being type 3 NEP. Especially Derek who doesn't even understand the statement to begin with, whereas at least you've said something.
 
LordGinSama said:
And I've already replied to the both of you. Nothing either one of you have said thus far disqualifies Schrodinger from being type 3 NEP. Especially Derek who doesn't even understand the statement to begin with, whereas at least you've said something.
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You did not really send any further scans. Is there any except that one?
 
Also Crabwhale seems to be on board with what was listed within the OP as well as others. So it's spilt rather than outright "no."
 
Alright so after coming home and double checking the manga for the Schrodinger NEP stuff and looking it over it seems more like this is a case of advanced NPI that would allow Alucard / Schrodinger to interact with NEP and Abstract Existence.



The scans is in reference to what Schrodinger can interact with, after some reflection this makes the most sense given that Schrodinger can appear within illusions / memories and interact with them physically. Hence why he's "everywhere." and "nowhere." as he's capable of interacting with things that do exist and things that don't exist such as the aforementioned illusions. He can also effect himself as Alucard was somehow able to act after being erased from existence after absorbing Schrodinger.




Also this should count as an unconventional form of resistance towards absorption & Limited Void Manipulation. As upon assimilation Schrodinger will enforce a paradox upon who's absorbed him, where they're erased from existence as he's unable to recognize himself. This is due to Schrodinger's existence.







So my final offer would be the following.



Mid-Godly, Type 1 Abstract Existence, Subjective Reality & Advanced NPI.
 
I'd rather ask first how it'd be "advanced" NPI over just NPI, the ability doesn't seem above baseline, but rather just can affect more than one kind of intangible stuff going by the proposal, so it'd be best to just index that as NPI then just mention to what exactly.

Either way, I'm unsure on that, characters often have "real" illusions and we don't grant them anything beyond Subjective Reality, and something being an illusion just doesn't make it a NEP thing for our purposes.

Considering how a soul and mind are tied to blood, a physical substance in the verse, I think it'd be best to clarify that when indexing the Mid-Godly stuff to avoid potential exaggerations, as while it fits that level out of technicality, it's not really more fundamentally difficult to affect compared to the average verse (namely being incorporeal, again, while that stuff being incorporeal is the default, the fact they're specified here to be tied to blood implies otherwise).

So I disagree with the NPI and am unsure on the AE (maybe it could be substantiated further?), I'm mostly fine with the rest.
 
There is a small issue with Schrodinger interacting with the illusion, namely that the scans don't show him actually affecting the illusion or objects in the illusion in any way. He could be a projection that can't move those objects and simply acts like he's touching them.

As for the souls in the blood, I raised the issue earlier that if the soul is physical it's very different from a conventional soul, and meanwhile if it's not physical then we have a situation where erasing the physical blood might not necessarily erase the soul.

There is also an issue that technically when Alucard vanished a bit of his blood did stay behind, which raises the question of whether he regenerated in any way from the blood. As much as an unkillable Alucard is basically what the series is all about, I'm a bit conflicted about Godly regeneration for regenerating after being erased when that erasure was shown to have left blood behind.
 
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