Hatchiyack and Broly should be upgraded to at least Galaxy level

[AKM sama]

you know that (dragon ball only has 4 galaxyas) has already been denied, right? and that the northern galaxy, south etcetera, actually refers to the quadrants of the universe, where it contains several galaxies. In other words, brolly destroyed almost 1/4 of the universe (in other words, the world of the living). at least multgalaxy

But if we follow this interpretation of the universe, then it's a whole different story.

 

[Udlmaster]

^

Oh yeah, and there's that.

From what I remember, Cannon story =/= Toei verse Cannon

 

[AguilaR101]

Multi-galaxy is a very large tier, so you can have one character at 3-B being literally quadrillions of times stronger than the other one and still only be 3-B, not that I particularly agree with the notion of 3-B Broly.

 

[Mr_John_West]

Narrator: "The Southern Galaxy has fallen under Super Saiyan attack."
King Kai: "T-then the Southern Galaxy really is being...At this rate...even my Northern Galaxy will be destroyed."

Nothing points to the fact that Broly destroyed the South galaxy in a couple hours. It just means the South galaxy was being destroyed at a fast rate and if not stopped, even the North galaxy will get destroyed over time. Just that.

You need explicit evidence to support your notion. "Universal threat" statements are common and anybody who is high into 4-A and MFTL+ can be considered a huge threat to the universe.

The fact that Broly was destroying the galaxy as King Kai speaks and finished when King Kai talked to Goku proves he done it pretty quickly, even quicker than an hour if being logical since King kai wouldn't wait a couple of hours to Goku, and than you have the fact it was RSSJ who did it and confirmed to me.

An hour at most

 

[Udlmaster]

The fact that Broly was destroying the galaxy as King Kai speaks and finished when King Kai talked to Goku proves he done it pretty quickly, even quicker than an hour if being logical since King kai wouldn't wait a couple of hours to Goku, and than you have the fact it was RSSJ who did it and confirmed to me.

An hour at most

That's still 4-A

 

[Mr_John_West]

you know that (dragon ball only has 4 galaxyas) has already been denied, right? and that the northern galaxy, south etcetera, actually refers to the quadrants of the universe, where it contains several galaxies. In other words, brolly destroyed almost 1/4 of the universe (in other words, the world of the living). at least multgalaxy

If you're saying Broly destroyed Multiple Galaxies, and let's assume, to much doubt, this is true.
Then it would be a massive Outlier to everything else shown afterwards. Broly according to Toei isn't the strongest Movie Villian, Jejebubu (Janemba) is. And Jijujaja is no where near Multi-Galaxy level.

So, Broly "Muh Multi-Galaxy" thing is a Massive Outlier.

Even looking to the other Movies, the Hatchiyack who stole Christmas his best feat is warping a Galaxy. And that seems like an Outlier as well.

Most of all because literally what happens next is that he headbutts Piccolo and defeats the Z-Warriors, so unless the Z-Warriors somehow have Galaxy Level AP and Durability, Including Piccolo? And to show, Piccolo takes a kick through the Pipes. So, yeah, no.

Yeah, I don't see it.

That's kinda untrue since Janemba warped the entire afterlife and crushed SSj3 Goku who shaked the afterlife just powering up to SSj3 and the afterlife contains a universal sized heaven in it. So nothing outlier about it. Janemba has way better feats in his fat form let alone super form. Even Gogeta lights up the entire afterlife just by being born

 

[Mr_John_West]

Broly should be at least Galaxy level regardless, he done it while holding back by Paragus and Paragus felt if he wasn't under his control he can do far more.

 

[ByAsura]

Golden Void calced lighting up a Universe at 4-B. But there's other stuff that could make it nearly 3-A apparently.

Both Gogeta and Jamemba are superior to Broly regardless. Jamemba performing a 3-A feat is astronomically above 3-C by 2.6825586e26 times.

 

[Udlmaster]

That's kinda untrue since Janemba warped the entire afterlife and crushed SSj3 Goku who shaked the afterlife just powering up to SSj3 and the afterlife contains a universal sized heaven in it. So nothing outlier about it. Janemba has way better feats in his fat form let alone super form. Even Gogeta lights up the entire afterlife just by being born

That's in the Main Series (Anime Cannon) at best, not in the Movie cannon.

Anime canon =/= Movie Cannon =/= The Actual Cannon


This isn't Composite DB.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, Anime filler, movies, and GT are part of one big non-canon continuity actually. But the Janemba thing is off topic. Janemba's feat was a range feat, not an Attack Potency feat, and Goku shaking the afterlife was calc'd at 4-A.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, look at that infinite distance, 10/10.

https://youtu.be/Er88XO7CWqg?t=173

 

[ByAsura]

Who's to say warping reality even scales to his AP? He doesn't actually attack with reality warping, maybe he does use it, like creating another Goku or teleporting, but he doesn't appear to directly use it to attack iirc.

 

[Mr_John_West]

That's kinda untrue since Janemba warped the entire afterlife and crushed SSj3 Goku who shaked the afterlife just powering up to SSj3 and the afterlife contains a universal sized heaven in it. So nothing outlier about it. Janemba has way better feats in his fat form let alone super form. Even Gogeta lights up the entire afterlife just by being born

That's in the Main Series (Anime Cannon) at best, not in the Movie cannon.
Anime canon =/= Movie Cannon =/= The Actual Cannon


This isn't Composite DB.

Cooler appearing in GT and Garlic Jr appearing the anime say otherwise

 

[Udlmaster]

Reality Warping, usualy only scale to AP when it's very clearly a weapon and not just a tool.

For example: Mister Mxy uses his Reality Warping Offensively, Jubele uses his Reality Warping like a Tool.

He's never shown to deal damage to anyone with his Reality Warping. Even those caught up in his Reality Warping aren't damaged by it.

 

[Mr_John_West]

Actually, Anime filler, movies, and GT are part of one big non-canon continuity actually. But the Janemba thing is off topic. Janemba's feat was a range feat, not an Attack Potency feat, and Goku shaking the afterlife was calc'd at 4-A.

But how else are you meant to measure the level of a reality warper ?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Janemba doesn't actually reality warp in the traditional sense, it's more like chain reaction and spatial distortions.

 

[ByAsura]

More reason for it not to scale to his AP.

 

[Mr_John_West]

Reality Warping, usualy only scale to AP when it's very clearly a weapon and not just a tool.
For example: Mister Mxy uses his Reality Warping Offensively, Jubele uses his Reality Warping like a Tool.

He's never shown to deal damage to anyone with his Reality Warping. Even those caught up in his Reality Warping aren't damaged by it.

And how did he use his reality warping offensively though ? besides effect people, what measure his power besides distance of the reality you warp ?


Here is the guide explaining what he done

daizenshuu 7:

Quote
"In "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta", he was sealed inside of Janenba's magical barrier, causing the laws of both this world and the afterlife to go haywire. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)"{| border="0" | |Magical Barrier[kekkai] |- | colspan="2"|

Category	Ability
User(s)	Janenba
Characteristics	Janenba used this to wrap up Enma's palace. It has the ability to make Enma Daio and the others unable to utilize their power to govern the afterlife. What's more, it absorbs and disperses the power of Goku and Paikuhan's energy bullets. However, for some reason Paikuhan's insult attacks caused it to break. This magical barrier also vanished when Gogeta defeated Janenba. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)

|} Creating Goku in his hands stronger then the original

	Mini Goku[mini gokuu]
Category Ability User(s) Janenba Characteristics In order to counter Goku's Kamehameha, pre-transformation Janenba created a fake Goku on the palm of his hand, and had it fire a Kamehamehajust like Goku. It appeared in the movie "Rebirth of Fusion!!~". After launching the Kamehameha, the Mini Goku disappears.

Created mini versions of himself.

Mini Janenba[mini janenba]

Category Ability User(s) Janenba Characteristics A technique which pre-transformation Janenba used. He creates countless small doppelgangers of himself from the human-shaped objects in Hell, and has them attack Goku. It appeared in the movie "Rebirth of Fusion!!~". (Daizenshuu 6, p.142) Can open up dimensional portals from outside of space. Space Transference Punch & Kick[kuukan ten'i panchi ando kikku] Category Special User(s) Janenba Characteristics Appeared in the movie "Rebirth of Fusion!!~". A technique where he rains down unpredictable attacks by unleashing punches and kicks into an outside dimension, which then come out of dimensional portals which open up in different places. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142) Created his own alternate space in between his hands easily. Springing Forth from Another Space[ikuukan wo hassei] Category Special User(s) Janenba Characteristics A technique where his opponent's energy bullet is absorbed into the alternate space which he creates between his hands, deflecting it to somewhere else. The post-transformation Janenba used it in the movie "Rebirth of Fusion!!~". (Daizenshuu 6, p.142) He can teleport Disassembly Teleportation[bunkai terepooto] Category Ability User(s) Janenba Characteristics Janenba used this in the movie "The Rebirth of Fusion!!~". His entire body scatters to pieces like bricks of a jigsaw puzzle and disappears, and he then materializes as these pieces once again connect together. (Daizenshuu 6, p.142)

 

[Mr_John_West]

Janemba doesn't actually reality warp in the traditional sense, it's more like chain reaction and spatial distortions.

He warped the entire afterlife in jelly beans, he changed it the way he wants. He also warped hell into something else entirely, changing it completely. I posted scans of him even creating his own space and controlling dimensions where he can warp his own punches. Janemba reality warps alright

 

[Udlmaster]

Cooler appearing in GT and Garlic Jr appearing the anime say otherwise

Okay, does Broly show up in GT? What about Bojack? What about Android 13, 14 and 15?

Hirudegarn? No? Didn't think so.

GT accepting 1 Movie character and the Anime taking 1 Movie character doesn't mean ALL movies are cannon to the Anime or vice versa.

Firstly, at best, it's the writers taking the brother to a Popular character, and it seems like an accident at best.

The Garlic Jr filler actively contredicts itself heavily.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's all still just chain reactions, and teleporting his fists. It's not destroy and recreate in their own image or something along the lines of that.

 

[ByAsura]

Affecting the border of Universes and dimensions to that point requires High 3-A to Low 2-C power, this is literally infinitley above Broly.

Saying Reality Warping is just range isn't true, there's multiple beings, Mxy as Uld explained, that use Reality Warping offensively and defensively, Janemba just uses it to copy things, teleport, transmute, etc.

 

[Mr_John_West]

Cooler appearing in GT and Garlic Jr appearing the anime say otherwise

Okay, does Broly show up in GT? What about Bojack? What about Android 13, 14 and 15?
Hirudegarn? No? Didn't think so.

GT accepting 1 Movie character and the Anime taking 1 Movie character doesn't mean ALL movies are cannon to the Anime or vice versa.

Firstly, at best, it's the writers taking the brother to a Popular character, and it seems like an accident at best.

The Garlic Jr filler actively contredicts itself heavily.

Let's see, seeing how Cooler henchmen appeared in movie 12, and Cooler appeared in GT, and all movie villians appeared in m12, it's say your wrong.
Stop making excuses just to ignore feats man

 

[Udlmaster]

Honestly, it's closer to Creation and Transmutation.

 

[Mr_John_West]

That's all still just chain reactions, and teleporting his fists. It's not destroy and recreate in their own image or something along the lines of that.

He changed the afterlife into jelly beans and completely recreted hell into what he wanted, in his own play ground. Plus he sealed the check in station causing the dead to come back to life.

That's a reality warper

 

[Udlmaster]

Let's see, seeing how Cooler henchmen appeared in movie 12, and Cooler appeared in GT, and all movie villians appeared in m12, it's say your wrong.

Stop making excuses just to ignore feats man

Not comparable at all.

You was talking about GT not Movie 12. We've already established that the Movies are all connected.

But just because Cooler and his henchmen show up in GT does not mean ALL movies are cannon.

That is Non-Sequitur.

 

[Mr_John_West]

Affecting the border of Universes and dimensions to that point requires High 3-A to Low 2-C power, this is literally infinitley above Broly.
Saying Reality Warping is just range isn't true, there's multiple beings, Mxy as Uld explained, that use Reality Warping offensively and defensively, Janemba just uses it to copy things, teleport, transmute, etc.

He also uses it to dissemble himself, create his own space between his hand etc. He also froze soemone in ice as well. Why wouldn't Janemba be able to use it offensively when he changed the afterlife itself. It's questionable if he can use it on Goku as well.

 

[Udlmaster]

He also uses it to dissemble himself, create his own space between his hand etc. He also froze soemone in ice as well. Why wouldn't Janemba be able to use it offensively when he changed the afterlife itself. It's questionable if he can use it on Goku as well.

Because he's never shown to deal damage with his Reality Warping.

And like I said, he's got more Creation and Transmutation then Reality Warping.

 

[Mr_John_West]

Let's see, seeing how Cooler henchmen appeared in movie 12, and Cooler appeared in GT, and all movie villians appeared in m12, it's say your wrong.

Stop making excuses just to ignore feats man

Not comparable at all.
You was talking about GT not Movie 12. We've already established that the Movies are all connected.

But just because Cooler and his henchmen show up in GT does not mean ALL movies are cannon.

That is Non-Sequitur.

GT isn't canon though, it's non-canon just like the fillers where Garlic Jr appeared. And yeah, that's excatly what it means, since movies are all connect and a movie character appeared twice in fillers and GT (Garlic Jr and Cooler)

 

[Mr_John_West]

Honestly, it's closer to Creation and Transmutation.

It's reality warping, even the games establish that as he is indeed a reality warper.

 

[Mr_John_West]

He also uses it to dissemble himself, create his own space between his hand etc. He also froze soemone in ice as well. Why wouldn't Janemba be able to use it offensively when he changed the afterlife itself. It's questionable if he can use it on Goku as well.

Because he's never shown to deal damage with his Reality Warping.
And like I said, he's got more Creation and Transmutation then Reality Warping.

If he can affect reality, and the people in it along with the objects as well, than he can affect others who live in reality, the question is whether it can affect Goku or Vegeta or Gogeta.

Nor does dealing damange mean your a reality warper, Gremmy was a reality warper yet he only affect people weaker then him

 

[ByAsura]

Disassembling himself isn't offensive since he uses it to teleport and hasn't used it on anybody else, pretty sure that was a portal and isn't even offfensive, and trapping someone in ice isn't what I meant, since he's not actually using reality warping to attack, just creating ice to attack. Why would he? Has anyone tanked it, survived, etc? What I mean is he uses powers from Reality Warping to attack people, but his Reality Warping still hasn't shown to be offensive or defensive. That's just HAX from it.

 

[Udlmaster]

GT isn't canon though, it's non-canon just like the fillers where Garlic Jr appeared. And yeah, that's excatly what it means, since movies are all connect and a movie character appeared twice in fillers and GT (Garlic Jr and Cooler)

Omg, I didn't even bring up about GT being Non-cannon, why do DBZ fans always bring this up? "GT is non-cannon", give it a rest, I wans't talking about how it's cannon or not, I'm talking about how it's Non-Squitur to say that just because 5th form Cooler shows up in a few frames of GT that means all Movies are cannon.

Just because Garlic Jr and Cooler appear, with them both in different versions of the show, doesn't mean anybody else is cannon.

It just means Garlic Jr. and Cooler are cannon to the DBZ and GT anime cannon respectively.

 

[Udlmaster]

Honestly, it's closer to Creation and Transmutation.

It's reality warping, even the games establish that as he is indeed a reality warper.

Pfft, did you just bring up the GAMES as a reason to why he's a Reality Warper, did you really just do that?

 

[Mr_John_West]

Disassembling himself isn't offensive since he uses it to teleport and hasn't used it on anybody else, pretty sure that was a portal and that isn't offfensive, and trapping someone in ice isn't what I meant, since he's not actually using reality warping to attack, just creating ice to attack. Why would he? Has anyone tanked it, survived, etc? No, cause he doesn't actually use it to attack.
What I mean is the reality warping itself, sure he can create things to attack, but he's not reality warping the opponent or thing.

It's his own space, even the guides stated he created his own space between his hand. How are you meant to use RW for attacking ?

Yeah he created a sword out of a bottle and transmuted a block to completely extend it.

 

[Mr_John_West]

GT isn't canon though, it's non-canon just like the fillers where Garlic Jr appeared. And yeah, that's excatly what it means, since movies are all connect and a movie character appeared twice in fillers and GT (Garlic Jr and Cooler)

Omg, I didn't even bring up about GT being Non-cannon, why do DBZ fans always bring this up? "GT is non-cannon", give it a rest, I wans't talking about how it's cannon or not, I'm talking about how it's Non-Squitur to say that just because 5th form Cooler shows up in a few frames of GT that means all Movies are cannon.
Just because Garlic Jr and Cooler appear, with them both in different versions of the show, doesn't mean anybody else is cannon.

It just means Garlic Jr. and Cooler are cannon to the DBZ and GT anime cannon respectively.

Nonsense, when besides the movies have they shown different versions, espically when they used the same story line for the garlic jr movie before his arc within the anime.

 

[Mr_John_West]

Honestly, it's closer to Creation and Transmutation.

It's reality warping, even the games establish that as he is indeed a reality warper.

Pfft, did you just bring up the GAMES as a reason to why he's a Reality Warper, did you really just do that?

It's common sense, games follow the anime in terms of concepts, since Janemba in games is a freak, he powers hasn't change. Regardless, all I am establishing is that he is a reality warper.

Don't know why this is even debatable

 

[ByAsura]

I conceed there. Resetting and changing time, weaponizing space, etc, actual feats of power. Creating a sword to hurt someone isn't AP.

I actually edited that, and that's still not attacking.

Still, there's no actual proof that it scales to his power rather than just being Reality Warping.

 

[Udlmaster]

It's his own space, even the guides stated he created his own space between his hand. How are you meant to use RW for attacking ?

Yeah he created a sword out of a bottle and transmuted a block to completely extend it.

Citation Needed.

Also, you don't know how one would use Reality Warping for Offensive purposes?

Do you really not know ?

 

[Udlmaster]

Nonsense, when besides the movies have they shown different versions, espically when they used the same story line for the garlic jr movie before his arc within the anime.

Wow, the best argument every "Nonsense"

Is cancer deadly? "Nonsense"

Does chain smoking kill? "Nonsense"

It's literally not an argument.

And when have they shown to be different versions? You mean besides the fact that the Anime contradicts the Movies in every way?