Haruka vs Sans

[ApiesDeathbyLazors]

Durability Negation always one shots without resistance to it...

Pretty sure that's blatantly wrong. A lot of dura negation is just a set amount of damage ignoring the dura stat. Also, Undertale has always had chip soul damage as opposed to straight soul destruction.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, Undertale has always had chip soul damage as opposed to straight soul destruction.

That literally just went revised

 

[StrymULTRA]

If you hovered over my username, you could see my join date for the new forum, & I've also been on the old forum.

Nonetheless, our account ages don't matter. You're claiming something's true when there's no evidence of it in games & our Wiki doesn't say so on the 'verse page, nor the pages for the associated powers & abilities, & in fact, one of the pages speak differently about it then how you claim.
& when told it's not on our Wiki, you say "it must be an unwritten rule!" without even trying to provide a source to back up your claim.
I'd dare call that a lack of understanding of procedure & standards on your part, which would be reason to ask if YOU'RE new here. But again, account ages don't matter.

Now, do you have actual evidence to back up your claim? Different points of debate to bring up for this match?

You definitely didn't check enough threads then, since after the most recent UT CRT, most of the matches were removed because "soul gets one-shot", a thing actually accepted from the staff.

 

[Imaginym]

You definitely didn't check enough threads then, since after the most recent UT CRT, most of the matches were removed because "soul gets one-shot", a thing actually accepted from the staff.

In the case of Sans, your proposition for all of Sans's Versus Threads Removals was "106's wincon is completely nulled since now Sans needs just a hit to one-shot his soul".
But while it's true Undertale has Soul Manipulation Durability Negation anew, evidently, Sans one-shotting with Soul Manipulation is still contested. The majority of Undertale's characters can't & don't one shot, within the canon of Undertale, & use great nuimbers of attacks, & Sans is not only the weakest monster, but does fixed damage (1 per hit.), despite durability negation.

So while I don't disagree with the Durability Negation, I find the one-shot aspect to be unfounded & suspect.

Heck, the REVISION YOU CITED in your Thread Removal Proposition doesn't seem to agree with it being a one-shot!

"Conclusion
With the points in the previous thread, I don't really see how they're valid. This is basically just me looking for a counterargument here, however if this thread somehow results in dura neg being added back then I'd like to note that I do not believe it to be a one-shot like it was treated before. It's more akin to dealing damage regardless of durability." - From the opening post of the revision.

"There’s a giant stack of evidence supporting that you need to harm the physical body, and next to no evidence that you don’t. Furthermore, there’s no evidence that every monster has potentially one-shottable soulhax + very good resistance rather than just... very poor soulhax not capable of one-shotting and varying levels of minor resistance." - Partial quote of Moritzva, a Staff Member.

"Undertale soul manipulation should be durability negation, as soul manipulation almost always is. Whether or not it one-shots a soul is a different discussion. The bottom line is that it bypasses the physical body, aka, their traditional durability." - Quote of FinePoint's post, which went seemingly uncontested in that revision thread.

 

[StrymULTRA]

In the case of Sans, your proposition for all of Sans's Versus Threads Removals was "106's wincon is completely nulled since now Sans needs just a hit to one-shot his soul".
But while it's true Undertale has Soul Manipulation Durability Negation anew, evidently, Sans one-shotting with Soul Manipulation is still contested. The majority of Undertale's characters can't & don't one shot, within the canon of Undertale, & use great nuimbers of attacks, & Sans is not only the weakest monster, but does fixed damage (1 per hit.), despite durability negation.

So while I don't disagree with the Durability Negation, I find the one-shot aspect to be unfounded & suspect.

Heck, the REVISION YOU CITED in your Thread Removal Proposition doesn't seem to agree with it being a one-shot!

"Conclusion
With the points in the previous thread, I don't really see how they're valid. This is basically just me looking for a counterargument here, however if this thread somehow results in dura neg being added back then I'd like to note that I do not believe it to be a one-shot like it was treated before. It's more akin to dealing damage regardless of durability." - From the opening post of the revision.

"There’s a giant stack of evidence supporting that you need to harm the physical body, and next to no evidence that you don’t. Furthermore, there’s no evidence that every monster has potentially one-shottable soulhax + very good resistance rather than just... very poor soulhax not capable of one-shotting and varying levels of minor resistance." - Partial quote of Moritzva, a Staff Member.

"Undertale soul manipulation should be durability negation, as soul manipulation almost always is. Whether or not it one-shots a soul is a different discussion. The bottom line is that it bypasses the physical body, aka, their traditional durability." - Quote of FinePoint's post, which went seemingly uncontested in that revision thread.

Ok, you're just trolling now, unless you explain to me why these thread were agreed to be removed coz "soul one-shot".

Because they were for this reason.

 

[Imaginym]

Ok, you're just trolling now, unless you explain to me why these thread were agreed to be removed coz "soul one-shot".

Because they were for this reason.

The following is what you posted to propose those removals:

Undertale verse monsters returned to break durability with their SOUL attacks, so now some threads need to be removed, due of them returning to be stomps.

Starting with Sans, the UT guy with more matches:

• SCP-106: 106's wincon is completely nulled since now Sans needs just a hit to one-shot his soul
• Bubsy: same as before
• Ika: ^
• Frank West: ^
• Movie Sonic: ^
• MC Jesus: ^
• Wolf: ^
• Ringo: ^
• Izuku: ^

Passing to the other monsters:, for kinda the same reason:

• Asgore vs Cuphead
• Asriel vs DBH Grand Priest (and yes, Demigra got stomped against Yhwach because of a similar soul hax, so I don't see how GP can resist his soul getting one-shotted too due of lacking soul hax resistance feats)
• Papyrus vs Peter Griffin
• Undyne vs Super Monkey

Your proposition was based on the return of Soul Manipulation-based Durability Negation (I think this is present.), & said Soul Manipulation-based Durability Negation causing one shots (Which I disagree about, especially in the case of Sans.)

Here are the replies on that topic within the Versus Thread Removal Request Thread:

Yhwach has far stronger soul hax then undertale

(In Reply to Schnee_One: )

And? I just mean that since GP lacks resistance to Soul attacks, he can't survive having his soul being destroyed like Demigra, he lacks feats about surviving to soul destruction from abilities as SOUL hax or Reiatsu.

Another thing, Soul stuff in Undertale isn't a passive destruction like Yhwach, so just because he got stomped by Yhwach doesn't necessarily mean Undertale stomps, so that match is more needed for a remake then an outright removal

(In reply to Schnee_One: )

Deleting my previous posts as Grand Priest doesen't have a wincon against Asriel regardless, since the previous match was inconclusive due of GP being unable to overcome Asriel's LOADing and Asriel not being able to damage GP, however, Asriel now has ways to kill GP, aka destroying his SOUL with his attacks, while GP can't nothing to kill Asriel as he can't stop the LOADing from happening.

Yikes, yeetus

So, what needs to be removed and what has to stay?

(Quoting StrymULTRA's own Versus Thread Removal Proposition post seen above : )

Remove everything here, even the Asriel vs GP one for the reasons I said above

Ok, I will clear Sans' profile (and the others).

Also, discussing about Mr. P and Junko is fine (kinda) but please stay polite.

The discussions leading up to the removal of the match results you proposed to have removed was largely based around Asriel vs Grand Priest, & didn't seem concerned with Sans, besides that last post by SamanPatou, where the extent of mentioning Sans was "I'll clear Sans' profile" (and the others).

You, StrymULTRA stated that Sans one-shots the soul with a single hit, when the revision you cited didn't even agree that Undertale Soul Manipulation one-shots.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok, what's the point of quoting all this irrelevant stuff?

How the wiki treats SOUL manip >> your poorly written wall of text.

Also I didn't saw a your discussion with Ultima, so stop lying.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You've reported Imaginym for trolling in a thread where you repeatedly reference unsubstantiated "unwritten rules".

Stop. Strym, chill out or don't debate, I don't care which. Thank you.

 

[Imaginym]

Ok, what's the point of quoting all this irrelevant stuff?

Those are the posts leading up to the match removals for Undertale characters that you mentioned being accepted by the Staff. The point of those quotes is that very little about Sans's matches was discussed. Not to mention no one noticed that Soul Manipulation being one-shots wasn't something proposed nor agreed upon in the CRT you linked in your post in the VRT Thread.

How the wiki treats SOUL manip >> your poorly written wall of text.

Except we don't treat it as one-shots. The only mention of one-shotting in that thread was 1. The OP stating they don't think of it as a oneshot, 2. Moritzva, a Staff Member stating they don't think of if it as able to one-shot, & 3. A non-staff saying whether or not it's a one-shot should be discussed later.

Also I didn't saw a your discussion with Ultima, so stop lying.

It was on Discord.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is kinda irritating when SOUL attacks one-shotting whoever hasn't resistance was even accepted in other threads as the Match removal one, then Ima disagrees with it as is not accepted yet.

I mean, they either agree or they make a CRT about it, since this isn't the place to discuss that.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Also I didn't saw a your discussion with Ultima, so stop lying.

He isn't lying, by the way. As far as I recall, the OP of that same thread proposing we bring back Durability Negation also made it pretty clear that we shouldn't treat it as a one-shot, just as a way to bypass physical defenses. Granted, the fact that the Soul Attacks in Undertale don't instantly kill anything in-verse seems to be currently chalked up to everyone having Resistance to Soul Manipulation, so Imaginym up there would indeed have to make his own CRT to rewrite that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He isn't lying, by the way. As far as I recall, the OP of that same thread proposing we bring back Durability Negation also made it pretty clear that we shouldn't treat it as a one-shot, just as a way to bypass physical defenses. Granted, the fact that the Soul Attacks in Undertale don't instantly kill anything in-verse seems to be currently chalked up to everyone having Resistance to Soul Manipulation, so Imaginym up there would indeed have to make his own CRT to rewrite that.

Yeah, is more that a CRT is needed on this matter since this discussion will never end.

 

[Imaginym]

Is kinda irritating when SOUL attacks one-shotting whoever hasn't resistance was even accepted in other threads as the Match removal one, then Ima disagrees with it as is not accepted yet.

I mean, they either agree or they make a CRT about it, since this isn't the place to discuss that.

They accepted it in the Versus Thread Removals, likely because you said it was a one-shot in the VRT post they read. But the CRT you linked as the basis for your one-shotting claim didn't actually agree on or seemingly, didn't even support that it was a one-shot. Whether the Staff who carried out the Match Result Removals understood that is less important than if the basis was accurate to begin with.
It's a bit of a problem if a lot of it was done in error.

Yeah, is more that a CRT is needed on this matter since this discussion will never end.

I agree, a CRT on the matter of if UT Soul Manipulation one-shots those without Resistance seems important to me, currently.

 

[Agnaa]

Is standard assumption, since there are no proofs that a character can resist getting their soul attacked without resistance to it, resulting in its instant destruction.

There's no reason to assume that all soul manipulation one-shots by default, and that any time it doesn't one-shot is because of resistance. That's ridiculous.

But if it needs a CRT to be applied, then I'd support one.

 

[Imaginym]

There's no reason to assume that all soul manipulation one-shots by default, and that any time it doesn't one-shot is because of resistance. That's ridiculous.

But if it needs a CRT to be applied, then I'd support one.

Given its presumable relevance to this thread, & that the idea was proposed here, & your recently expressed interest, I feel I should link my recently created Content Revision Thread on the matter: https://vsbattles.com/threads/under...thout-resistance-to-soul-manipulation.111958/
Hopefully that proves worthwhile.

 

[FinePoint]

Posting San's "strongest attack" for reference, in addition to following.

 

[Moritzva]

I take a break from the wiki for like, a month, and people go to undo all the work I did on rightfully putting UT Soulhax in it's place. Now, people want to make it a one-shot again.

You fools. You absolute foolish fools. This is what happens.

... aaaanyways, Imaginym makes the most sense here by a wide margin.

 

[Imaginym]

I take a break from the wiki for like, a month, and people go to undo all the work I did on rightfully putting UT Soulhax in it's place. Now, people want to make it a one-shot again.

You fools. You absolute foolish fools. This is what happens.

... aaaanyways, Imaginym makes the most sense here by a wide margin.

@Moritzva : Given your expressed concern over this topic, you may be interested in a CRT I recently created: https://vsbattles.com/threads/under...thout-resistance-to-soul-manipulation.111958/ (Though it's also possible you saw me link that CRT earlier in this Versus Thread.)