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Haruka vs Sans
- Thread starter AccelerAx
- Start date
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In Sans's only fight it's against someone he really hates & wants to stop at all costs. By SBA, Sans will want to win/defeat Haruka, & be in-character, but willing to kill (But like anyone else under SBA, killing isn't necessarily their first resort, especially if it's out of character.)
The problem is, Sans's only known opening move is implied to be his stongest attack, if not one of them. It's effectively a barrage of beams & bones from multiple angles, if my memory serves.
So we have a few questions:
1. Can Haruka perceive Sans's magical/SOUL-based attacks?
2. How effectively can he dodge them?
3. Can he survive them?
4. Sans is known to dodge & teleport a fair bit. What can Haruka do about this?
So let's look at Haruka's profile, & ask about what might help him.
Information Analysis, Supernatural Luck (His luck is at maximum level)
What can these do for him? Can he learn about Sans's stats, abilities, the properties of Sans's stuff? Will it help him not get hit/survive?
Accelerated Development (Able to learn to do almost anything easily)
Is this fast enough to help him in this fight?
Mind Manipulation (Can subjugate people and monsters),
How is this done in the fiction, & under what circumstances will he &/or will he not resort to it? I assume this is just for:
Can he transmute Sans or Sans's attacks? What can it do? Does it refer to anything other than?:
How effective can he heal what? I assume this refers exclusively to:
Being able to hide from Sans might be useful. How effective is it, & when would he use it?
Power Mimicry,
How does it work, what could he copy, & will be able to use copied powers well? Is it for anything other than Packaging?
Statistics Amplification,
What are Haruka's exact statistics? Considering his Power Glove & Monster Bracelet increase power by percentages, knowing how he is with or without the boosts may be useful. It looks like he scales to:
Low End: 2.41317*38000000 = 9.1700460e7 Joules, 0.022 Tons of TNT, Small Building level
OR
High End: 16.27163 x 38000000 = 6.1832194e8 Joules, 0.148 Tons of TNT Small Building level+
Because of:
Attack Potency: Small Building level (One-hit killed an orc in two times. An orc is able of destroying a tree, which requires this energy)
Which end is he scaled to? Low End? I can't see the comments for evaluations on the blog.
Empathic Manipulation, Social Influencing, Invisibility
How does he use these?
Attack Reflection (Can reflect magic)
The problem is, Sans's only known opening move is implied to be his stongest attack, if not one of them. It's effectively a barrage of beams & bones from multiple angles, if my memory serves.
So we have a few questions:
1. Can Haruka perceive Sans's magical/SOUL-based attacks?
2. How effectively can he dodge them?
3. Can he survive them?
4. Sans is known to dodge & teleport a fair bit. What can Haruka do about this?
So let's look at Haruka's profile, & ask about what might help him.
Information Analysis, Supernatural Luck (His luck is at maximum level)
What can these do for him? Can he learn about Sans's stats, abilities, the properties of Sans's stuff? Will it help him not get hit/survive?
Accelerated Development (Able to learn to do almost anything easily)
Is this fast enough to help him in this fight?
Mind Manipulation (Can subjugate people and monsters),
How is this done in the fiction, & under what circumstances will he &/or will he not resort to it? I assume this is just for:
- Bocchi: A skill that matches Haruka's lonely personality. Due to this, he is unable to join a party and people will refuse to be in the same party as him. As a countermeasure, this title has an ovelord-like ability, called [Subjugation], which allows Haruka to manipulate monsters or people to use them as his minions.
Can he transmute Sans or Sans's attacks? What can it do? Does it refer to anything other than?:
- [Packaging]: A magic that allows to wrap anything in magic to manipulate it. Thanks to this, Haruka can convert materials into others, with a kind of transmutation. By applying this ability to other magic and adding the Jack of All Trades' effect, Haruka can copy other people's magic.
How effective can he heal what? I assume this refers exclusively to:
- Jealous Soul-Kyukon Ring/Samurai Ring: A ring with a lifesaving skill. Restores HP with MP before it reaches zero.
Being able to hide from Sans might be useful. How effective is it, & when would he use it?
Power Mimicry,
How does it work, what could he copy, & will be able to use copied powers well? Is it for anything other than Packaging?
Statistics Amplification,
What are Haruka's exact statistics? Considering his Power Glove & Monster Bracelet increase power by percentages, knowing how he is with or without the boosts may be useful. It looks like he scales to:
Low End: 2.41317*38000000 = 9.1700460e7 Joules, 0.022 Tons of TNT, Small Building level
OR
High End: 16.27163 x 38000000 = 6.1832194e8 Joules, 0.148 Tons of TNT Small Building level+
Because of:
Attack Potency: Small Building level (One-hit killed an orc in two times. An orc is able of destroying a tree, which requires this energy)
Which end is he scaled to? Low End? I can't see the comments for evaluations on the blog.
Empathic Manipulation, Social Influencing, Invisibility
How does he use these?
Attack Reflection (Can reflect magic)
- Magic Reflection Cloak: As the name implies, this cloak is capable of reflecting minor magics with the magical reflection ability.
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I don't see Haruka countering nor SOUL attacks nor Gravity Hax with that LS of his, what about his luck? Is it a thing like Hajime's?
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Why wouldn't he counter? He has a robe that deflects weak magic attacks. & why does LS matter?
As for his Luck... His profile is a bit unclear on the matter.
Supernatural Luck (His luck is at maximum level), Probability Manipulation (Haruka can decrease the chance that someone will enter his home, and is unable to get a job or join a party. Due to his high luck, Haruka can consistently hit critical hits)
- [Avoidance]: Improves the skill to dodge attacks.
Hikikomori: A title that protects the interior of the user's home. Basically, it alters the probability of someone trying to break into his home while sleeping. - NEET: Due to this title, Haruka is unable to get a job, giving him bad luck, like when he tried to enroll in the adventurer's guild but was unable to because the required level was 10.
- Bocchi: A skill that matches Haruka's lonely personality. Due to this, he is unable to join a party and people will refuse to be in the same party as him. As a countermeasure, this title has an ovelord-like ability, called [Subjugation], which allows Haruka to manipulate monsters or people to use them as his minions.
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To counter gravity manip, that is Sans' opening move.
A guy who has an actual combat applicable Extreme Luck.
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Apologies, but does Sans not begin with a barrage of bones & Gaster Blasters, then ask why more people don't begin with their strongest move? Not that I deny the possibility there is evidence, but why is Gravity Manipulation Sans's opening move?
But on the topic of Lifting Strength, Sans has Unknown Lifting Strength, & is called the Weakest Monster. Haruka has Average Human Lifting Strength. (Though both lack justifications one way or another.)
As for countering Gravity Manipulation....
- [Weight Magic]: It allows to control the weight, either to reduce or increase it. It is unknown if it works only on the user or also on other people. Haruka is able to use it on his own to be more agile by reducing weight, or simulate the ability to fly by combining it with wind magic.
- [Wind Magic]: Magic that manipulates the wind element. When it is combined with Weight Magic, Haruka is able to fly.
& it seems in-character for him to use it, since he uses it to get around quickly & do pseudo-flight, so I'd presume he'd try this.
(Also, do we know if Sans's TK/Gravity Manipulation are Magic, especially with Verse Equalization in mind?)
No disagreements from me here. (About Hajime's luck anyway, lol.)
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No, he increases the gravity as 1st move, to then hit the opponent from under them as they're blocked to the ground.
Unknown because as a 9-B monster, we don't know how much is superior to average human's, and that's irrelevant as his gravity manip can affect Frisk who's Unknown too in LS.
Are those though-based or action based? Is pretty important to know.
Increasing the weight would make the situation only worse and the magic work on the SOUL, does his verse's magic cover even SOUL manip?
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Don't Undertale monsters describe typical humans as horrifically strong? & are made of magic rather than physical flesh? I do not think that that, especially alongside his reputation as the weakest monster, gives Sans a strong case for his Unknown Lifting Strength to be that impressive.
Also, you just now said: "and that's irrelevant as his gravity manip can affect Frisk who's Unknown too in LS.".
But earlier, you said: "I don't see Haruka countering nor SOUL attacks nor Gravity Hax with that LS of his, what about his luck? Is it a thing like Hajime's?" & when I asked "Why does LS matter?" you replied "To counter gravity manip, that is Sans' opening move.".
With that in mind, I ask: Why have you now said LS is irrelevant when you spoke about it as if LS was important to countering the Gravity Manipulation?
(Also, while it doesn't change Haruka's own LS, Haruka is a Small Building Level Human. By my math, somewhere between 8.7% & 59% of Maximum Small Building Level depending on which end of his calculation is accepted. What are the values Sans is at within his tiers?)
Unfortunately, I haven't read the books, light novels, nor manga, so I don't know how he performs those actions. Though I'm skeptical how much difference it makes, given Speed is Equalized, but I can definitely imagine needing to twiddle your fingers to use magic (Again, I don't know if Haruka needs to do such or not do magic.) is important in an action economy.
So Sans's Telekinesis, & also his Gravity Manipulation, both work on the same principle that they affect the SOUL, causing it to move, & the affected's body moves because of the SOUL's influencing?
Good to know. Though, since Haruka seems to use it mostly for self-lightening (Based on what I've read on his profile.) to be more agile &/or pseudo-flight, he'd probably go lighter before he'd go heavier.
Incidentally, I think this brings up the question of getting into Sans's blind spots or out of range to avoid TK/Gravity Manipulation.
Concerningly, Haruka's verse, although listed on his profile, does not have a page of its own.
Whether or not Magic in their setting covers SOUL Manipulation:
- Jealous Soul-Kyukon Ring/Samurai Ring: A ring with a lifesaving skill. Restores HP with MP before it reaches zero.
There's also the question of Haruka's Power Mimicry.
- [Packaging]: A magic that allows to wrap anything in magic to manipulate it. Thanks to this, Haruka can convert materials into others, with a kind of transmutation. By applying this ability to other magic and adding the Jack of All Trades' effect, Haruka can copy other people's magic.
- [Jack of All Trades]: A skill that reduces experience gain. The user can easily learn various skills and be good at almost anything, but it will be difficult to focus on one thing and thus makes it difficult to level up the skills.
Even without that, this is Haruka vs a blatant Skeleton man, & Haruka has this ability....
- Bocchi: A skill that matches Haruka's lonely personality. Due to this, he is unable to join a party and people will refuse to be in the same party as him. As a countermeasure, this title has an ovelord-like ability, called [Subjugation], which allows Haruka to manipulate monsters or people to use them as his minions.
& he might live slightly longer than others due to him having a skill to be good at dodging. Still, I don't know much about Haruka that isn't on his profile, like how or when Haruka uses Bocchi, sorry to say.
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Undertale humans are way stronger and different from irl ones, so moot point.
??????????
I didn't understood a thing. I never said that LS is irrelevant lmfao.
We should wait a knowedgable member of the verse then.
About the rest, instead, it seems more that he has to see the attack to copy it, and that'ts irrelevant if Sans one-shots his SOUL with his attacks.
About AP, well, he's physically 0.00114 Tons/4769760 Joules, with magic instead, it should be around x12 times above, without counting his Durability negation powers.
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We don't know the LS of those humans, though, & if Undertale monsters find humans scarily strong, why would Sans, the WEAKEST of them, have superior Lifting Strength?
"I don't see Haruka countering nor SOUL attacks nor Gravity Hax with that LS of his", implies to me you were saying the Gravity Hax COULD have been countered with sufficiently high Lifting Strength.
Although it's an easy assumption to make, other than that, why do you say he seems to need to see the attack to copy it?
Looking at his profile, there IS
- [Appraisal]: Ability that is capable of analyzing and seeing information about an object or living being, knowing its name, description and even abilities.
As for SOUL attacks, I thought how survivable it is might be related to Stamina or such. But dodging is also a thing. (I'm also skeptical if Sans should one-shot when he's the weakest monster, & his attacks that always harm on hit are also fixed damage, individually.)
Why is Sans 12 times stronger with Magic?
Reposting from earlier:
Low End: 2.41317*38000000 = 9.1700460e7 Joules, 0.022 Tons of TNT, Small Building level
OR
High End: 16.27163 x 38000000 = 6.1832194e8 Joules, 0.148 Tons of TNT Small Building level+
Because of:
Attack Potency: Small Building level (One-hit killed an orc in two times. An orc is able of destroying a tree, which requires this energy)
9.1700460e7 = 91,700,460, which, divided by 4,769,760 = 19.2253824
So if that's correct, Haruka is at minimum, easily above 19.22 times stronger than Sans physically.
Compared to Sans with magic (Assuming a 12x multiplier, supposing I'm not misinterpreting.).... 4,769,760 * 12 = 57,237,120
91,700,460 / 57,237,120 = 1.6021152, which would mean at a bare minimum, Haruka scales above 1.6 times stronger than Sans with magic. (Assuming his justification means twice, he's been able to OHKO an Orc, & supposing orcs don't need much effort to destroy trees. This also supposes Low End's yield. The High End would mean Haruka scales from something about 6.7 times higher.)
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Ok, this is getting stupid, ngl.
Did I say that sans has LS? I said that his gravity hax works on people with LS >= Average Human, that is Frisk.
Iirc in a thread it was stated such about gravity increase in general.
This exists
If you read his profile, you'd know that with his magic he can harm Frisk, who's physically x12 stronger than him.
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About the LS thing, nvm, it just works on people with way superior LS as I could read in sans' threads, so his Gravity Hax works regardless.
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Apologies for any bother.
It does, & Sans does have it, but I still question it, even if I don't question Sans having it; Sans always does the same damage to Frisk/Chara. Isn't he's Durability Negating by using Soul Manipulation, despite Frisk/Chara having Resistance to Soul Manipulation? & doing the same damage every time?
Plus, Sans talks about always using your strongest attacks, & always goes all out for huge quantities of attacks, & that SOUL Poison stuff, too? & his Telekinesis/Gravity Manipulation?
Why have attacks like that, why go all out if he could one-shot his opponents anyway?
& other monsters have Durability Negation, too, don't they? But Sans's attacks are weaker than their attacks, individually.
Thus, I'd assume, even against those who don't resist his attacks, Sans still needs multiple hits to defeat his opponents, hence the huge quantities of projectiles.
My mistake, thanks for the clarification. (Though, that's for his AP, & his Durability is at a different value, right?)
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Any monster negates durability by default as they attack both the body and the SOUL with their attacks, and theur SOULs are strong enough to survive such attacks as physical ones, that's why the resistance for anyone in the verse. This applies to Frisk too, but Sans can bypass said resistance with KARMA, making his SOUL manip way stronger than "baseline SOUL attacks".
Sans has 1 in both AP and DEF in physicals that is 4769760 J in the verse, just that his attacks are way stronger than that.
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I was aware of all of that, except the KARMA bit. As I recall, Karma was a part of Sans's fight where after taking damage from his attacks, additional damage would gradually accrue over time, for each individual hit that struck Frisk/Chara.
Are you saying that we treat KARMA as amping the total damage done by each individual hit, upon the time of hitting?
(Though I still find it counterintuitive that "the weakest monster in The Underground" would have the strongest-hitting attacks measured on damage per individual hit, when his whole gimmick is doing only 1 damage per hit.)
Still, thanks for the clarification. So I presume it's meant to only be interpreted that Sans is weaker in AP & Durability (In Sans's case, at Wall Level?), Physically, whereas his magical offenses are stronger than that, & magic doesn't influence Sans's own durability?
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This whole thing assumes that his SOUL magic already isn't one-shotting Haruka due of lack of resistance to SOUL hax.
Sans's attacks >> his stats, nuff else.
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I mean, is there ANYONE in Undertale without Soul Manipulation resistance? No humans are fought other than Frisk/Chara, so we don't know if they're the exception or the norm.
& Sans doesn't fight anyone other than Frisk/Chara, & despite ignoring durability, he needs to land several tens of his attacks to defeat Frisk/Chara.
& Sans is implied to be using his strongest attacks, & talks about using one's strongest attacks, as if using your strongest attacks is something he thinks more people should do; If he could one-shot people who don't have SOUL Manipulation, in universe, we haven't seen it happen, & it doesn't lend much credit that in his fights, he needs to land many hits.
Though, I think all of this might be moot if Haruka leads with Subjugation, since then it's Mind Manipulation, GG.
It MAY also be moot if Hitoribocchi no Isekai Kouryaku has Soul Manipulation magic (Or even if not) because if Haruka's cape can reflect Sans's magic, Sans pretty much loses, & it's possible it's the right kind, depending on what the stance regarding Verse Equalization is in this case.
Haruka being able to copy Sans's magic (Sans leads with telekinesis, throws Haruka, & if Haruka lives & does it back to Sans, how do we know Sans can survive?) could also mean Haruka wins.
(& of course, there's Haruka hitting Sans, since that's a one-shot, if I'm not mistaken, but Sans is notorious for his dodging capabilities.)
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Maybe because they resist his dura neg?
You even admitted that you don't know the verse, aka you don't know what he leads with.
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That's what I just said; We haven't seen anyone in Undertale be one-shot by Sans, because nobody in Undertale LACKS Soul Manipulation resistance.
& as you said, "Sans can bypass said resistance with KARMA, making his SOUL manip way stronger than "baseline SOUL attacks".".
Every character Sans has fought, all one of them, has it, & while it's true it might be a high amount of Resistance, it also took Sans many hits to do it, so I'd assume it could require him to land multiple hits, even against non-resistant opponents, if he's going all out, using durability negation & still requiring dozens of connected attacks to get a kill.
Indeed, I don't know the 'verse beyond what I've read on the profile.
But:
1. The skill, Bocchi, which Haruka's ability Subjugation comes from is part of the namesake of the series, "Hitoribocchi no Isekai Kouryaku"
2. The summary states: "Haruka is left with the remaining and useless skills, among them the title "Bocchi" (Loner) that makes it impossible for Haruka to join a party." A skill notable enough to be explicitly pointed out sounds like something that might be used.
3. A walking, talking skeleton seems like an obvious example of a "monster", & Bocchi/Subjugation is apparently for use on monsters. I don't know how likely Haruka is, but I wouldn't be surprised if he thought to use it on Sans.
& nonetheless, my phrasing in the post above was hypothetical. If that isn't how Haruka behaves, then so be it, his tactics under the new knowledge of his behaviour will have to be considered, I suppose.
Also, what's the point of you pointing this out? It was already established earlier a knowledgeable member of the 'verse's input should be had, & I assume you haven't read the books, light novels or manga, since you suggested getting a knowledgeable member.
(Though, I doubt it will progress much to just wait.)
As far as I know, we've both been in this debate with knowledge similarly limited by what's on Haruka's profile.
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That's non-sense, they aren't one-shot from it because they are resistant, otherwise they wouldn't be.
Aka he gets one-shot because he lacks resistance, simply as that.
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I'm not saying that the resistant characters should be one-shot.
I'd ask: Why would it be a one-shot if they didn't resist it?
For a non-resistant character, we don't know much of their SOUL it destroys at once, because Sans never fought a non-Soul-Manipulation-resistant character.
What we know is, the one time when he fights, which is against a Soul Manipulation, resistant character, he goes all out & attempts to land tons of hits.
If it was a one-shot to non-Soul Manipulation-resistant characters, the quantity of attacks could be because because he just wants to ensure a hit lands.
Or it could take multiple hits to defeat non-Soul Manipulation-resistant characters, & the multiple attacks are because he needs to hit a lot of attacks to defeat them. (& can't assume every bone or beam will hit.)
& in the latter proposition's favour, I'd assume, even though Sans is negating durability against Frisk/Chara, as you claim, he needs tens of hits, varying by what Level Chara is at in the fight.
What makes us so sure Undertale Soul Manipulation one-shots those without Soul Manipulation resistance when it's never been used on those without resistance to demonstrate that it does one shot such characters?
Thank you for this.
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Is standard assumption, since there are no proofs that a character can resist getting their soul attacked without resistance to it, resulting in its instant destruction.
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I hadn't realized that was the case. Where was that assumption established?
& also my point is it's possible for a character to have their Soul attacked & not be resistant. There could be multiple reasons for that, too. Maybe some souls just survive attacks better than other souls. Or some attacks on souls are of different potency.
Nonetheless, being unable to defend from a Soul attack is possible.... But we apparently never see anyone in Undertale who's NOT resistant to Soul Manipulation, & thus, I don't think we very well know how strong or weak a Soul attack has to be one-shot or not one-shot someone.
Some resistance is more than none, but if we were to suppose no resistance is the average (As it is for a lot of 'verses.), & we don't know whether, in Undertale, the average non-resistant gets one-shot or not....
ANYWAY....
Looking at our Wiki's page for Soul Manipulation:
"Generally speaking, we judge the potency of Soul Manipulation both by what it can do and by how many people its user can affect at once with it. This may range from only a few people at a time to entire planetary populations."
It doesn't say anything else related to how Soul Manipulation (Or lack of resistance to it.) could lead to a one shot.
I also can't find anything on our page on Resistance.
& I can't find anything on our Undertale 'verse page.
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Is more an unrwritten rule tbh, souls are getting destroyed against a soul attack without a resistance since they lack feats of defending against attacks directed towards them, as they, again, lack feats, and such, we can't assume that they get destroyed.
Like, look at the Bleach threads to get an example, they one-shot foes which lack resistance to soul attacks as the opponents don't resist their soul being hit, as it lacks "durability feats"
Meanwhile in UT SOUL fights are a thing on daily basis, and thus the SOULs can defend against attacks since they're stronger than the "average soul" that didn't show the ability to tank them.
Like, look at the Bleach threads to get an example, they one-shot foes which lack resistance to soul attacks as the opponents don't resist their soul being hit, as it lacks "durability feats"
Meanwhile in UT SOUL fights are a thing on daily basis, and thus the SOULs can defend against attacks since they're stronger than the "average soul" that didn't show the ability to tank them.
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If my memory serves, Bleach's Soul stuff, Reiryoku, functions more like an aura. It's pressure from it, & crushes those without sufficient spiritual power themselves. Reiryoku crush or Reiatsu Crush or such I think it's called?
But Undertale's Souls do not work entirely the same, since Undertale souls are one with the body & made of magic.
& meanwhile, in Undertale, there don't SEEM to be any characters who lack Soul Manipulation related "durability feats" because all of them have Soul Manipulation resistant.
Also, fighting isn't really regular in Undertale. The majority of monsters are peaceful, among one another especially, are less dangerous in Pacifist, & only really hostile -& that's toward Chara- in Genocide Mode, where Chara is actively trying to murder all of them.
I don't think SOUL fights are something that's a part of everyday life in Undertale.
Sans fought Chara because he wanted to stop a crazed killer who killed Papyrus, from going any further,
Flowey fought Frisk because he finally had ultimate power thanks to manipulating Frisk after they fell into The Underground, & Frisk was all that stood in their way.
Asriel was just Flowey, having achieved ultimate power, & wanting to win really badly, IIRC.
Aaron just wanted to flex, & many of the "random encounters" are just shy or socially awkward or not familiar with humans, rather than beings who fight regularly, much less against one another.
", and thus the SOULs can defend against attacks since they're stronger than the "average soul" that didn't show the ability to tank them."
Do you mean the SOULs of the 7 Humans + Frisk/Chara who came to the Underground? But all of them were humans, & human SOULS are known in-universe to be exceptionally powerful compared to monster SOULs.
Not to mention all unique & distinct, & their SOULs were notedly powerful enough to break the barrier & empower Asriel. Of course they're stronger than the "average soul".
But seemingly we didn't SEE an "average soul" in Undertale, since every Soul has Soul Manipulation Resistance.
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That just means that unlike regular souls, UT's can resist attack of them due of how the verse works.
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I KNOW THAT. That's my point!
Imagine a soul, not necessarily from Undertale, has 100 HP. This soul does NOT have Resistance to Soul Manipulation. Let's call it Soul A.
Imagine a soul, from Undertale, which also has 100 HP. This soul DOES have Resistance to Soul Manipulation. Let's call it Soul B.
A Soul Manipulating Attack from Undertale hits Soul A. Soul A does NOT have Resistance to Soul Manipulation. How much HP does it lose?
Also, an identical Soul Manipulating Attack hits Soul B. Soul B DOES have Resistance to Soul Manipulation. How much HP does it lose?
For B, we might have an answer, because the case is that which happens in Undertale; Every Soul in Undertale has Resistance to Soul Manipulation, & usually will take an amount of damage that can be determined depending on which attack, which soul, etc.
Let's suppose Soul B took 50 damage, & an unknown amount of damage was prevented via Resistance to Soul Manipulation.
But For A, we don't have an answer. We don't know how potent the Soul Manipulating Attack is against something WITHOUT Resistance to Soul Manipulation, because what the heck is 50 minus Unknown Number?
Even if we knew how survivable a non-UT character's Soul is, we don't know how much damage is being prevented by the ubiquitous Resistance to Soul Manipulation.
& presumably, not every non-UT character's soul, whether it has Resistance to Soul Manipulation or not, IS as durable as an UT Character's SOUL, so we don't know how much SOUL there is to get rid of.
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Simple, it loses them all as it never shown to be able to resist such.
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But the opposite: That Undertale SOUL Attacks one-shot Souls without Resistance to Soul Manipulation, was never demonstrated!
& there isn't support in universe for them one-shotting, because there are no characters WITH no Resistance to Soul Manipulation TO one-shot!
& it's not a standard written on our Wiki. It's not on the pages for Soul Manipulation, nor Resistance, nor the Undertale 'verse page.
It seems quite unapplied, & thus, unapplicable to assert that characters with no resistance to Soul Manipulation get one-shot by any SOUL attack, when there's little that can be called evidence for it in Undertale itself, & other fiction has it possible for a Soul to become damaged, but not completely destroyed. (Even without the victim resisting.)
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You're now telling me that a durability negation hax doesen't one shot characters with no resistance to it because no feat? What's the point of the resistance then?
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For one, the resistance could be to take less damage from that type of attack, as opposed to preventing it one-shotting.
& it's more a case that it's not KNOWN to be a one-shot; The capability to one-shot those unresistant to it seems Unknown, but was never demonstrated, as the only characters it was used on have resistant to it.
If we have evidence it can one-shot those resistant to it, it can do so. If they have a stronger resistance to it, it won't one-shot as easily. If they have a weaker resistance to it, it will one-shot more easily.
But we never saw how effective it is on characters without the resistance to it.
If a scientist kills only Poison-resistant frogs with Poison, but never quantify how resistant the frogs are, they won't know how effective it is on non-resistant frogs if they haven't tested on those non-resistant frogs.
How much damage is 100 minus Unknown Number? Without knowing how resistant the resistant are, you don't know exactly how vulnerable the non-resistant are.
For example: If a Resistant & Unresistant Soul both have 100 HP, but the Soul Attack only does 70 damage, & Soul Manipulation Resistance's Unknown Number turns out to be only 1 damage prevented, that isn't going to make the difference between life & death; Both the resistant & the unresistant would live such an attack.
But if it's doing 7,000 damage, the resistant & the unresistant both die, & once again, if Unknown Number or protection turns out to be just 1 point of Protection, it doesn't make a difference.
Or it could be 14,000 points of resistance, & the attack on the soul is survived by the resisted, but not the non-resistant.
Without knowing how much is being prevented by Resistance to Soul Manipulation, it's not known if it'll one-shot, unresisted or not.
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Durability Negation always one shots without resistance to it...
And soul manip breaks dura
And soul manip breaks dura
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Source on that claim, please?
My viewing of the Durability Negation page says:
"The ability that allows users to damage the target, regardless of its durability. In particular, enables causing serious damage to a very strong opponent, even in the absence of large attack potency. A good example of ignoring the strength would be a laser, which at negligible attack potency, easily cuts through thick steel sheets."
- Soul Manipulation - Those who manipulate souls, can bypass conventional durability. It can be resisted only by the strength of the soul. However, such attacks are effective only on those who have souls. Also, if for some reason soul manipulation fails, then this ability is completely futile.
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Unwritten rule duh
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No duh. "No duh" as in, pretty sure that's not how things are done here. Information not on a profile or a page proper is not to be used, because it isn't properly documented on our Wiki.
Get an actual source on your claim.
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Are you new here?
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If you hovered over my username, you could see my join date for the new forum, & I've also been on the old forum.
Nonetheless, our account ages don't matter. You're claiming something's true when there's no evidence of it in games & our Wiki doesn't say so on the 'verse page, nor the pages for the associated powers & abilities, & in fact, one of the pages speak differently about it then how you claim.
& when told it's not on our Wiki, you say "it must be an unwritten rule!" without even trying to provide a source to back up your claim.
I'd dare call that a lack of understanding of procedure & standards on your part, which would be reason to ask if YOU'RE new here. But again, account ages don't matter.
Now, do you have actual evidence to back up your claim? Different points of debate to bring up for this match?
