Happy New Year From Kishimoto

[Godernet]

I am still definitely in disagreement with this. KT has pointed out the issues with this, and I can't believe the original manga (the primary source of canon here) is being disregarded so heavily.

No one here is suggesting we disregard the manga,

We just went into great detail to show that Zetsu's words are not important for either argument.

The fact that you won't even consider a possibly SOL rating when the only evidence for your claims is assuming and frankly
disingenuous interpretations of what Zetsu and Sasuke say is crazy.

Arc's suggestion contains two separate databook entries as evidence and has no contradictions to the manga.

Your interpretation ignores the context of the situation and actively contradicts the manga if you take what Zetsu says at face value.

If Zetsu is the only actual argument you have you should be fine with the possibly SOL rating.

Honestly Likely SOL is more appropriate since there's barely an argument against it being SOL in the first place but most people

here are willing to compromise except you.

 

[Godernet]

prob a Possibly at best given that Damage is still split between the Manga vs Databooks and their interpretations

Gotcha

though im not sure how it would effect the scaling in any notable way , given the distance and time. you wouldnt have to be inherently SOL to react to it.

Yeah, a calc would definitely need to be done to get Itachi's reaction speed. It definitely won't be SOL Reaction. But if this CRT goes through there are other relevant speed topics to go over as well as this that could affect War Arc/Higher Tier speed scaling.

 

[Damage3245]

here are willing to compromise except you.

I don't think the presented evidence is worth compromising for. The manga contradicts the databooks, so the manga takes priority. We have explanations from both Sasuke and Zetsu for why we should consider it natural lightning, and there is no indication of speed amping whatsoever.

It flies in the face of narrative to take the databook statements for this as gospel.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I dont think it's just Damage that feels that way, from an outsider perspective it seems weird to take a databook over the manga, but im okay with it because the point of databooks are to expand and explain how the jutsu's work, they also written by Kishimotto and it's at least consistent outside of the one reference. but i dont fault anyone for disagreeing either.

 

[Tomboy11]

I don't think the presented evidence is worth compromising for. The manga contradicts the databooks, so the manga takes priority. We have explanations from both Sasuke and Zetsu for why we should consider it natural lightning, and there is no indication of speed amping whatsoever.

It flies in the face of narrative to take the databook statements for this as gospel.

At this point u are repeating yourself and it is sad to see an admin acting like this
Like 7 different already explained why zetus statement doesn't count in this situation
Because he brealy has any knowledge on the Kirin Justus except it is made up the lightning in the sky
2 different data book tell us the exact speed of Kirin but u want us to take zetus guess on how fast "lightning is" over 2 direct statement talking about Kirin in particular

Even tho all the zetus point has been refuted
People still want to go with a liking SOL
Just so that u guys don't crash out of shock

I really don't get u damage

 

[Damage3245]

At this point u are repeating yourself and it is sad to see an admin acting like this

I wish I wouldn't have to repeat myself tbh.

Like 7 different already explained why zetus statement doesn't count in this situation

Their explanations aren't sufficient.

 

[Tomboy11]

I dont think it's just Damage that feels that way, from an outsider perspective it seems weird to take a databook over the manga, but im okay with it because the point of databooks are to expand and explain how the jutsu's work, they also written by Kishimotto and it's at least consistent outside of the one reference. but i dont fault anyone for disagreeing either.

If zetus was a reliable source and fully understood what Kirin is ,I would say
Oh he totally contradict the data books
But he doesn't even know what the ability is expect sasuke is controlling the lightning in the sky and his statement is about lightning in general not necessarily Kirin
But the two data book statement Right out specifically talk about Kirin speed it's self with 2x direct SOL statements like there is a higher level of consistency Vai the data book Vs zetus who is just guessing and generalizing how lightning should work
We still have example of how ninjas control natural elements ends up passively amping them , like the Kakashi and zabuza water dragons that passively amp up the low flow of water from a stream and turning them into mini dragon tsunamis.which could be the passive reasoning for Kirin speed being so fast
We still gave an explanation that it makes more sense for kirini to be LS than MHS+ because teen Kakashi lore/ the other lightning feats he has against bringer
of darkness.
To be fair this just seems like damage not wanting to take the new years L
And Just wants to be unreasonable even with the people that proposed we get a likely or possibly SOL
This is why most of the big ass anime Debater like Seth etc make fun of some Vs battle admins

 

[Winzy]

Anyway, I disagree with the main proposal of this thread. The manga takes priority over the databook and the reason why the Kirin is considered fast in the manga is because it's natural lightning.

Your arguments haven't convinced me otherwise.

Not to mention that the official translation of the databook doesn't support the Kirin being lightspeed.

Debate wisely.

 

[Winzy]

It isn't, keep coping.

It is, sorry.

 

[Tomboy11]

I wish I wouldn't have to repeat myself tbh.



Their explanations aren't sufficient.

Well u feeling it isn't sufficient doesn't automatically= it not being sufficient evidence for the claims made
But people pointed out how your counter points was in no way sufficient or brealy a refutation
If U weren't an admin I am 100% Sure no body would focus on addressing u 50x in a role
Just because u feel "it isn't sufficient enough for u "

I wish I wouldn't have to repeat myself tbh.



Their explanations aren't sufficient.

 

[Winzy]

My vote is still against it.

That... Is not a refutation.

 

[Damage3245]

Well u feeling it isn't sufficient doesn't automatically= it not being sufficient evidence for the claims made
But people pointed out how your counter points was in no way sufficient or brealy a refutation
If U weren't an admin I am 100% Sure no body would focus on addressing u 50x in a role
Just because u feel "it isn't sufficient enough for u "

Well, yeah, that's how it works. As an Admin I have to use my judgement to evaluate the evidence presented and my view is that the evidence does not warrant a full upgrade to Speed of Light, and that all the information in the manga suggests that an MHS+ rating is more accurate as if currently the case.

 

[Mori]

 

[Winzy]

Zetsu notes that Kirin would be the speed of CTG lightning
Meaning it would be in the same ball park of speed as the lightning Kakashi cut
How does something Teen Kakashi could react to be considered impossible to react to for a god tier at that point?
Zetsu's claim is looking flawed is the point here

What exactly are they against? Don't tell me they think Kirin is just as fast as regular lightning and not faster.

 

[Tdjwo]

You should probably get more staff members to look at this because at this point, I don't think the staffs here would be willing to erase their obvious bias despite being debunks several times already

 

[Damage3245]

You should probably get more staff members to look at this because at this point, I don't think the staffs here would be willing to erase their obvious bias despite being debunks several times already

There is no bias here; this would barely even affect the profiles if it went through as far as I'm aware.

 

[The_Alxhemist]

I don't know why people keep confusing Skepticism with bias but ok.

In regards to which to take precedence, the sole purpose of databooks is to further expand on characters and their abilities mechanics.

Disregarding valid translations because of Zetsu shoddy's statement that referred only to natural lightning isn't a valid argument from KT or Damage considering said Jutsu destroyed the mountain, it's safe to say absolutely nothing about it is natural.

I'm all for likely SOL for Kirin.

 

[Damage3245]

Disregarding valid translations because of Zetsu shoddy's statement that referred only to natural lightning isn't a valid argument from KT or Damage considering said Jutsu destroyed the mountain, it's safe to say absolutely nothing about it is natural.

That's because Kirin is natural lightning. Destroying the entire mountain is irrelevant when it comes to the speed.

 

[KingogKings777]

Isn't the databook contradicted by it being called natural lightning?

 

[Damage3245]

Isn't the databook contradicted by it being called natural lightning?

That is the main point I'm stressing.

The reason why Kirin is considered fast is because it is natural lightning. The Kirin is not formed by Sasuke's chakra but uses the ambient atmospheric energy present in nature. Sasuke does not amp the lightning himself, but directs it towards his target.

 

[Tyri456]

The 2 sources contradict themself because one is wrote by the mangaka, what zetsu say is kishimoto intent, and the other is an interpretation of a second source which however is still official and should have his weight, but given they are 2, I’ll stay neutral On this topic. And I’ll not disagree.

the problem I see mainly is the fact that zetsu considered that thing to be extremely fast, so he thinks that for character In tier with itachi and sasuke lightning speed is impressive, even if they are fast, lightning is like slow-motion compared to light, so it’s really difficult to completely ignore what kishimoto made zetsu say.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The 2 sources contradict themself because one is wrote by the mangaka, what zetsu say is kishimoto intent, and the other is an interpretation of a second source which however is still official and should have his weight, but given they are 2,

both are written by Kishimotto

 

[Godernet]

I don't think the presented evidence is worth compromising for. The manga contradicts the databooks, so the manga takes priority. We have explanations from both Sasuke and Zetsu for why we should consider it natural lightning, and there is no indication of speed amping whatsoever.

It flies in the face of narrative to take the databook statements for this as gospel.

No one is taking the databooks like they're gospel hence the Possibly SOL Rating. And you have yet to explain why your interpretation of what Zetsu said is more likely than ours.

Well, yeah, that's how it works. As an Admin I have to use my judgement to evaluate the evidence presented and my view is that the evidence does not warrant a full upgrade to Speed of Light, and that all the information in the manga suggests that an MHS+ rating is more accurate as if currently the case.

You keep saying "the Manga" when you really mean Zetsu, who should not be taken as a primary source of Sasuke's abilities.

That's because Kirin is natural lightning. Destroying the entire mountain is irrelevant when it comes to the speed.

No one disagrees with this Kirin uses Natural Lightning, but it requires guidance from Sasuke's chakra to be utilized as a Jutsu.

That is the main point I'm stressing.

The reason why Kirin is considered fast is because it is natural lightning. The Kirin is not formed by Sasuke's chakra but uses the ambient atmospheric energy present in nature. Sasuke does not amp the lightning himself, but directs it towards his target.

If it's undodgeable because it's the Speed of Lightning then Zetsu is already contradicting the manga. He's seen Pain, Itachi, Minato, Madara, and Kaguya's capabilities but Lightning is undodgeable?

I have much more faith in Guy's words about Kakashi, his rival. Than Zetsu, who is a non-combatant and is constantly shown throughout the fight to underestimate Itachi and Sasuke's full capabilities.

Let's just agree to disagree at this point and see what other staff opinions are.

 

[GTsek]

Well, yeah, that's how it works. As an Admin I have to use my judgement to evaluate the evidence presented and my view is that the evidence does not warrant a full upgrade to Speed of Light, and that all the information in the manga suggests that an MHS+ rating is more accurate as if currently the case.

In short: For you, your judgment and your interpretation is more valid than the author's word. The author called it SoL twice in two different guides, in one of them it was description of the juts most voted by the public and he literally reminds you that the jutsu is SoL, I'm sorry but clearly you are being biased here,

 

[GTsek]

The funniest thing is that if the author's statement was something that nerfed what he presented in the manga, certain staff members here would go to nerf...

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well Tracer and Shadow are for my compromise proposal and KT and Damage are against it, based on the staff comments on the recent Kirin debate so I’ll go message some walls for y’all to wrap this up rather than debate in circles.

 

[GTsek]

Tempest didn't respond after I sent the scan, but probably still disagrees.

 

[Damage3245]

In short: For you, your judgment and your interpretation is more valid than the author's word. The author called it SoL twice in two different guides, in one of them it was description of the juts most voted by the public and he literally reminds you that the jutsu is SoL, I'm sorry but clearly you are being biased here,

In short, I think the information in the manga takes priority over the databook.

 

[GTsek]

Well, it's impossible to understand how in your mind the author's words are irrelevant compared to a character's assumptions... Although both are written by the author in a certain way, there is a difference between direct statement and assumptions of the character.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah not really getting the manga > databook when both are penned by Kishimoto iirc

 

[Damage3245]

Well, it's impossible to understand how in your mind the author's words are irrelevant compared to a character's assumptions... Although both are written by the author in a certain way, there is a difference between direct statement and assumptions of the character.

I don't expect to be agreed with by everyone. We all have our own perspectives.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't expect to be agreed with by everyone. We all have our own perspectives.

He’s not saying y’all have to agree he’s just questioning the reasoning behind manga > databook if they’re both written by the same dude

 

[Tdjwo]

It's really annoying when only staff members get to decide the outcome of a CRT even if they are clearly the wrong ones. The majority of the people here already gave irrefutable points and scans from author-written sources, but somehow the mods are still persistently ignoring all these and focusing on Zetsu, who is objectively unreliable. If this isn't blind ignorance, then I don't know what to call it.

 

[Tyri456]

both are written by Kishimotto

If you really believe it sure

 

[Damage3245]

It's really annoying when only staff members get to decide the outcome of a CRT even if they are clearly the wrong ones. The majority of the people here already gave irrefutable points and scans from author-written sources, but somehow the mods are still persistently ignoring all these and focusing on Zetsu, who is objectively unreliable. If this isn't blind ignorance, then I don't know what to call it.

As has been pointed out multiple times, other staff members can be called too.

And no, the argument does not rely on Zetsu alone but Sasuke too.

 

[Tomboy11]

The 2 sources contradict themself because one is wrote by the mangaka, what zetsu say is kishimoto intent, and the other is an interpretation of a second source which however is still official and should have his weight, but given they are 2, I’ll stay neutral On this topic. And I’ll not disagree.

the problem I see mainly is the fact that zetsu considered that thing to be extremely fast, so he thinks that for character In tier with itachi and sasuke lightning speed is impressive, even if they are fast, lightning is like slow-motion compared to light, so it’s really difficult to completely ignore what kishimoto made zetsu say.

Zetus statement doesn't actually contradict the data book, I think u should revisit all the point stated on the positive side of the agrument
We are saying zetus perspective is from a character guessing and zetus himself doesn't even know how fast nor powerful Kirin is, only that it is made from Natural lightning , he doesn't make a direct statement on Kirin speed but what Kirin is made of Vs 2 direct statement from the data book that directly correlate to the actual speed of Kirin ( not the speed of the lightning use to make up Kirin) +kishimoto is writing zetus as a character viewing a ability he has never seen making assumptions ( characters assumption can be wrong especially when they are guessing ) but a direct statement via the data book wouldn't be a guessing game or a character view point
But a full knowledge claim on the speed of the attack

 

[Tomboy11]

The funniest thing is that if the author's statement was something that nerfed what he presented in the manga, certain staff members here would go to nerf...

Most likely
Lol

 

[GTsek]

Well, it's 2x2. We need 1 or 2 more evaluates from the staff. I hope that whoever comes, takes a look at the arguments in favor of Kirin SoL (like mine and Arc's), and don't just take those from Tempest and Damage into account just because they're staff.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, it's 2x2. We need 1 or 2 more evaluates from the staff. I hope that whoever comes, takes a look at the arguments in favor of Kirin SoL (like mine and Arc's), and don't just take those from Tempest and Damage into account just because they're staff.

Nobody should blindly believe another staff member's arguments just because they're staff.

 

[GTsek]

That's what the system want us to believe