Happy New Year From Kishimoto

[Godernet]

you trying to join in or something?

 

[GTsek]

We have two statements after the release of the chapter, both are from guides written and reviewed by the author, if he, after the release of the chapter, declares that the Kirin has the speed of light, then we must consider it as the speed of light. Zetsu didn't even know Kirin, he was just making assumptions, and even logical given the lack of information he had, He sees Sasuke controlling the cloud's electricity and assumes he's going to use the lightning, and obviously, he would assume that this attack would have the speed of lightning. As the author is a better source than Zetsu, and Zetsu had no knowledge of the technique, and the fact that Zetsu's statement provides speeds far above the speed of natural lightning, and the light speed statement was given twice by the author, I agree with the OP.

 

[Tdjwo]

I feel like this CRT is being prolonged unnecessarily. We already know which statement is more reliable, so what's with the delay?

I agree with the CRT by the way.

 

[Godernet]

We need more staff input.

why arnt we using the current accepted calc for Kirin anyway.

theres nothing wrong with that one.

I know you dropped some points earlier but would you please be able to give your current stance?

 

[KingTempest]

0 Debating Skills.
The premise of the thread emphasized on it.
Kirin is tamed and controlled.
Natural Lighting can't grow an eye and a face
Natural Lighting would not fall down automatically the way it did without external manipulation.
You're asking for a direct statement of that which has been logically explained.
Sorry, you are the one to explain how Lighting performed all it did without Chakra manipulating it.

Natural fire can't kill a tier 5 character, yet a tier 5 character got killed by natural fire.

Kirin is not literally tamed and controlled. It's guided.

Prove that it has chakra inside of it instead of making a non supported assumption

You admitted previously that chakra is imbued in it and sent something to justify. You came back confused and asked for a justification for it again. Please boy, Focus.

I never said that it was imbued in it in my life.

There is a huge difference between chakra being used to manipulate something and chakra being imbued in something.

People use chakra to manipulate people, they aren't imbuing people with chakra.

Can you prove that Kirin is just Natural Lightning and nothing more? The mountain carving Dragon Lightning bolt.

Because they say so

Kirin is still a jutsu so chakra is involved in some way. And we've seen Sasuke still has to use chakra to guide it.

What the **** is you guys' issue with understanding that chakra being used doesn't mean that it's fused with it.

Someone can control magnetism with chakra, doesn't mean they're shoving chakra in everything they attract to them

It also clearly outputs more energy than any lightning bolt normally could.

Because it's an extremely strong lightning bolt from the ridiculous amounts of energy used to make it, which they said

"He doesn't have to use his own chakra, but just take advantage of the enormous ambient atmospheric energy to create a lightning style jutsu

Disregarding it to just lightning speed when nothing implies that and other external sources tell us otherwise that isn't contradicted by the manga would be disingenuous.

"When nothing implies that"

THEY HAVE A TIMEFRAME AND A STATEMENT what do you mean

Stop saying "sources", it's a single ******* source which says lightspeed

And since you apparently can't come up with any counterpoint besides "prove it" I don't see why you don't want to settle for a possibly rating.

Because your arguments are dogshit

 

[Godernet]

Because they say so

Show me a scan of anybody saying Kirin is the Speed of Lightning.

What the **** is you guys' issue with understanding that chakra being used doesn't mean that it's fused with it

Someone can control magnetism with chakra, doesn't mean they're shoving chakra in everything they attract to them

I never said chakra was infused into Kirin but clearly chakra is needed for its usage. Can you prove that Kirin is a normal chakra-free lightning bolt?

"When nothing implies that"

THEY HAVE A TIMEFRAME AND A STATEMENT what do you mean

If you would read the scan at all you would see that the timeframe Zetsu mentions is about the Speed of Lightning not the Speed of Kirin

And it's brought up as a hypothesis of Kirin's capabilities before Sasuke even uses it.

Stop saying "sources", it's a single ******* source which says lightspeed

Two sources now if you read Arc's earlier post.

Because your arguments are dogshit

Your counterarguments are worse.

Can you please come up with a new argument? These have all been addressed several times.

 

[KingTempest]

Show me a scan of anybody saying Kirin is the Speed of Lightning.

The scan you sent below
"This is why the jutsu is undodgeable, the speed of lightning is this fast"

I never said chakra was infused into Kirin but clearly chakra is needed for its usage. Can you prove that Kirin is a normal chakra-free lightning bolt?

The fact that they say all I do is point the strength of the lightning from the sky.

If you would read the scan at all you would see that the timeframe Zetsu mentions is about the Speed of Lightning not the Speed of Kirin

Kirin is regular lightning.

And it's brought up as a hypothesis of Kirin's capabilities before Sasuke even uses it.

His response to Sasuke saying "all I do is point the lightning from the sky at you" is "lightning is this fast", which means that it's the same

Two sources now if you read Arc's earlier post.

Multiple translations of 1 source isn't multiple sources

Can you please come up with a new argument? These have all been addressed several times.

Addressed ≠ successfully countered

 

[GTsek]

Multiple translations of 1 source isn't multiple sources

It's not just one source, it's 2, 2 statements from the author against your hater interpretation, we know which one has more validity here.

 

[KingTempest]

It's not just one source, it's 2, 2 statements from the author

Send them both here

against your hater interpretation,

"Hater interpretation"

You mean ZETSU AND SASUKE?????

we know which one has more validity here.

 

[Godernet]

The scan you sent below
"This is why the jutsu is undodgeable, the speed of lightning is this fast"

the speed of lightning is the important part. Again, Sasuke has not yet fired the Jutsu, Zetsu is only guessing what'll happen.

Also, why should we believe a vague guess from Zetsu over an actual statement?

The fact that they say all I do is point the strength of the lightning from the sky.

Sasuke's statement doesn't prove anything for either side of the argument since he doesn't comment on the speed nor control he has to move Kirin.

Kirin is regular lightning.

Regular Lightning that still requires chakra to be used by Sasuke as a Jutsu.

His response to Sasuke saying "all I do is point the lightning from the sky at you" is "lightning is this fast", which means that it's the same

no, it doesn't. And this is still all just an assumption on Zetsu's part since he's never seen the Jutsu before.

He didn't even realize Kirin would absorb all the energy in the cloud until after it was used.

Multiple translations of 1 source isn't multiple sources

they're two different databooks apparently:

The correct translation of the databook for Kirin states the following:

光速の一撃は回避不能であり、瞬きする間もなく敵を消し去る‼︎
The light speed strike is unavoidable, it blows away the opponent with no time to even blink!!

In Naruto Fanbook 2 it also states:

麒麟 (サスケ)
Kirin (Sasuke)
雷をも使役シ‼︎
Employing lightning as well!!
イタチを倒すために、サスケが生み出した究極の術。伝説の霊獣・麒麟を象った雷撃が、光速で相手に迫る様は圧巻の一言‼︎
For the sake of bringing down Itachi, Sasuke created this ultimate technique. Being struck by lightning taking the form of the legendary sacred beast Kirin, approaching the opponent at light speed it's superb!!

 

[GTsek]

Send them both here

I'll send it soon and with context together, if no one sends it before, of course.

 

[KingTempest]

That shit is real?????

 

[GTsek]

Send them both here

The two quotes, one from the 3rd databook and the other from the 2nd fanbook.


Now the context: In the 2nd Fanbook the results of the voting for the best characters and best techniques were released and the winners had a highlight in the Fanbook. In the case of Kirin, it was the 4th most voted skill, and unlike all other techniques who had a highlight, only Kirin there is a relevant statement, the author made a point of repeating in the Fanbook that Kirin has the speed of light, this puts an end to any argument you make, it is the author's word once again. And here's the whole page if you want to check it out:

 

[Tomboy11]

Natural fire can't kill a tier 5 character, yet a tier 5 character got killed by natural fire.

Kirin is not literally tamed and controlled. It's guided.

Prove that it has chakra inside of it instead of making a non supported assumption

I never said that it was imbued in it in my life.

There is a huge difference between chakra being used to manipulate something and chakra being imbued in something.

People use chakra to manipulate people, they aren't imbuing people with chakra.



Because they say so

What the **** is you guys' issue with understanding that chakra being used doesn't mean that it's fused with it.

Someone can control magnetism with chakra, doesn't mean they're shoving chakra in everything they attract to them

Because it's an extremely strong lightning bolt from the ridiculous amounts of energy used to make it, which they said


"When nothing implies that"

THEY HAVE A TIMEFRAME AND A STATEMENT what do you mean

Stop saying "sources", it's a single ******* source which says lightspeed

Because your arguments are dogshit

Isn't it kinda implied that sage mode or natural elements are kinda a weakest for otusuki
Remember gamakichi and sage mode Naruto being able to damage the TSo/ jubito+ we could just say the fire was amp up by massive amounts of natural energy as KOJI implies it some type of fire on a mountain that has been gathering NE

2) bro stop lying I remember u actually saying that sasuke imbues little of his chakra into said attack
If u want to change agrument to
Your new one thats okay but don't be disingenuous

3) arc already posted like 2 different data book that says light speed strike
And lightning that strikes at at Light speed
Even making reference to why Itachi had problems with it
So I already think the rest is semantically
Ninjas use their chakra to manipulate natural elements most likely amps the output of what ever they are moving another example are the water dragons kakashi and zabuza use which clearly amp the flow/ out put of the wave from the lake
So the logical assumption that sasuke is passively increasing its speed via guiding it just the same way zabuza and kakashi and haku can Turn low level wave from a lake into dragon like mini tsunamis Just by Controlling it ( but those are just supportive rhetoric to explain the reason for why two different data book say Kirin strikes at light speed)

So at this point it is either u guys agree to a LS Kirin or at bear minimum possible or likely SoL Kirin
We can't just avoid the guide book statements two different times

 

[Godernet]

The One Piece is real?????

yep

 

[Tomboy11]

L

The two quotes, one from the 3rd databook and the other from the 2nd fanbook.


Now the context: In the 2nd Fanbook the results of the voting for the best characters and best techniques were released and the winners had a highlight in the Fanbook. In the case of Kirin, it was the 4th most voted skill, and unlike all other techniques who had a highlight, only Kirin there is a relevant statement, the author made a point of repeating in the Fanbook that Kirin has the speed of light, this puts an end to any argument you make, it is the author's word once again. And here's the whole page if you want to check it out:

Iike at this point it is unavoidable
2 different times in the guide books it is stated
When I first saw this stuff in 2020 I thought maybe they are some heavy mistranslation fan trying to push LS hebi sasuke

I decided to check it myself even after arc posted those stuff

Getting the same results
Clear as speed of light kanji

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That shit is real?????

Yeah Wrath showed me it a while ago, so I translated

 

[Testarossa002]

Finally some headway
For the last time
Kirin is not a naturally occuring lightning
Supernatural energy is being used in it's creation
Regular lightning can not oneshot Mt Kilimanjaro
I still stay with my earlier stance on why the databook statements should be used here
Zetsu said "The speed of lightning is this"
Meaning that he is talking about the general speed of lightning in the verse
Not "The speed of this jutsu is this"
He wasn't saying this after the aftermath of the jutsu either
Meaning he had almost 0 information prior to it's creation
+The other science thingy about KE that @Arc7Kuroi brought up
So now, we have 2 direct statements vs Zetsu's unreliable statements
That said and done, I'm fine with a "Possibly" rating
Completely dismissing the databook statement in this context was what did't sit well with me

 

[Testarossa002]

For an Update|

Itachi
Itachi’s Mangekyo Sharingan via his Tsukuyomi should get at least Light Speed perception
This is because, the tsukuyomi is capable of trapping those who move at the speed of light
There's another Justification for this in the next section
=SOL perception

This has been addressed and dismissed
Could have sworn there was an ftl calc for this stuff somewhere

Hebi Sasuke
Gets Speed of Light Attack Speed via Kirin
Which was stated in the databooks to be the speed of light
Yeah I know, there are contentions with it
So let's get it over with

"Kirin is your regular CTG lightning".
That is indeed true but becomes false to an extent.
Zetsu's statement and description was in complete reference to the creation of Lighting without usage of chakra that in turn grants benefits such as being in an enormous scale that Shinobi cannot replicate by using chakra to create it.
In theory, when this lighting is created without chakra usage, said Lighting cannot heed the bidding of a Shinobi as they need chakra to directly manipulate. Hence it's only logical that Sasuke imbued said Natural Lighting with his own Chakra in order to freely manipulate the lighting. Zetsu also notified Sasuke "tamed" the lighting. Such can only be achieved via chakra imbuing.

To solidify this "theory", Sasuke stated "This Jutsu Guide The Lighting...". Direct implication of this statement is the fact that he uses a Jutsu (which always involves Chakra) to directly control the Lighting. It is this Jutsu that is known as "Kirin '' and not the natural lighting formed. In other words, the natural lighting formed cannot be Kirin without Sasuke manipulating it with his Chakra which can in turn alter its Speed.

"But Zetsu said....."
Aside from the controversy or fact of Zetsu being an unreliable source, it should be clarified that Zetsu only made his statement in reference to natural lighting and didn't and couldn't account for the boost that may come from Sasuke imbuing it with his chakra. For simplicity, Zetsu stated the speed of Natural Lighting and not Kirin. It's previously explained above how the Natural Lighting differs from when it is converted to Kirin.

Sasuke himself didn't say anything concrete either
Other than it's faster and more potent than anything he knows of
Which brings me to my next point
Lore wise, Teen kakashi is famed to be able to react to a CTG lightning and cut it in the same vein
Whether or not the calc makes him lightning speed is actually irrelevant
The point is that he can react to lightning
3T Itachi was more or less relative to a stronger kakashi
Add the MS on top
And Sasuke should be well aware of Itachi's speed since he just fought him
There's no way he thought that a CTG lightning which teen kakashi could take action against would blitz MS Itachi
Unless people believe Teen Kakashi with just a sharingan has better reactions than Itachi with Mangekyo
There's also the small matter of adult kakashi intercepting an attack that was described to be a lightning bolt
Hope you get the point

War Arc Sasuke
Via the EMS, he now has access to Itachi's ocular prowess. That should grant him itachi level perception speed
=Light speed or FTL perception for Sasuke

Still in contention

Kakashi
In Kakashi Retsuden, Kakashi was able to utilize a jutsu that moves at the speed of a flash of light
=SoL attack speed

Addressed and dismissed without further refutation
Could have sworn that Arc had a version that outrightly states SoL though

Every other thing has been barely touched on
Would like to know everyone's vote on each matter

 

[Deceived3596]

Basically only Kirin matters in this thread, everything else should be either removed from the OP or cross out as it's been overwhelmingly rejected by both staff and normal members.

This is only in reference to the "speed discussion" part of the OP, the actual scaling hasn't really been touched upon much in this thread.

 

[Godernet]

I agree with Likely SOL or Possibly SOL Kirin.

I imagine a Calc would need to be done with the SOL Version of Kirin in mind for Itachi and EMS Sasuke's reaction speed.

 

[Testarossa002]

Basically only Kirin matters in this thread, everything else should be either removed from the OP or cross out as it's been overwhelmingly rejected by both staff and normal members.

This is only in reference to the "speed discussion" part of the OP, the actual scaling hasn't really been touched upon much in this thread.

Nobody has said anything about the Konohamaru calc though
I'm genuinely curious about that as the calc has been on the verse page for a long time now but never applied|
Maybe there's an existing arguement about those who would scale to the calc

 

[Testarossa002]

I agree with Likely SOL or Possibly SOL Kirin.

I imagine a Calc would need to be done with the SOL Version of Kirin in mind for Itachi and EMS Sasuke's reaction speed.

Noted then

 

[Godernet]

I kinda agree with Deceived tho, Kirin kinda overran every other point(partially my fault)

We can make a separate thread talking about scaling for Boruto Characters' speed scaling in general, that way it's not too confusing.

Scaling Chains can be a lengthy subject in itself.

 

[Deceived3596]

Nobody has said anything about the Konohamaru calc though
I'm genuinely curious about that as the calc has been on the verse page for a long time now but never applied|
Maybe there's an existing arguement about those who would scale to the calc

You responded twice to me with the same comment.

I don't believe that Konohamaru calc was accepted through, @M3X 2.0 (who was a calc member before he quit being staff) disagreed with some of the assumptions within it, we can ask both @Therefir and M3X to comment on this thread regarding the calc though, and if both agree the calc was accepted then we can discuss the scaling in this thread.

 

[Testarossa002]

I kinda agree with Deceived tho, Kirin kinda overran every other point(partially my fault)

We can make a separate thread talking about scaling for Boruto Characters' speed scaling in general, that way it's not too confusing.

Scaling Chains can be a lengthy subject in itself.

That does seem reasonable
I'll cross out the new era stuffs

 

[Testarossa002]

You responded twice to me with the same comment.

Shit
Sorry about that

I don't believe that Konohamaru calc was accepted through, @M3X 2.0 (who was a calc member before he quit being staff) disagreed with some of the assumptions within it, we can ask both @Therefir and M3X to comment on this thread regarding the calc though, and if both agree the calc was accepted then we can discuss the scaling in this thread.

That seems like it would take a while
Better to make a new thread for it
The Photon stuff also looks like it'll get it's own thread

 

[M3X_2.0]

It's kinda obvious that the lightning isn't centimeters from Konohamaru's face. That calculation isn't valid.

 

[Mori]

For an Update|


This has been addressed and dismissed
Could have sworn there was an ftl calc for this stuff somewhere

I do believe Itachi can still qualify for FTL perception or reaction speed since he could react fast enough to be able to summon his Susano to dull the effects of the Kirin. A speculation

 

[KingTempest]

FTL for reacting to light hundreds of meters away from your face is hilarious

 

[Testarossa002]

It's kinda obvious that the lightning isn't centimeters from Konohamaru's face. That calculation isn't valid.

Yh sure
Thanks for the input
The orochimaru route then

 

[Testarossa002]

Updated the OP with everyone's stance
lmk if i classified you wrongly or if i didn't classify you at all

 

[45Saef]

Anyways, as said before, I agree to the current stance of the debate, although, I can’t say Konohamaru’s stance towards the lightning that was shot at them was merely “far” from Konohamaru as seen here as well. I’ll await for other staffs input as well.

 

[Tomboy11]

I don't think I made this clear
I agree with light speed Kirin
Not possible nor likely rating
So count me as agreeing with the thread

 

[GTsek]

Itachi being classified with FTL reaction obviously wasn't going to happen. There probably has to be a calculation about, considering the Kirin doesn't seemed so far away in the Manga/Anime, he seemed relatively close to Sasuke. There must be a way to calculate both Itachi's reaction and Sasuke's evasion, since when the Kirin reaches the mountain, he was no longer above that "wall". But that's obviously something for another topic, first the Kirin must be accepted as SoL and that topic concluded.

 

[Panache_x]

I never said that it was imbued in it in my life.

Sasuke imbues it with tiny amounts of chakra.

Lal

Natural fire can't kill a tier 5 character, yet a tier 5 character got killed by natural fire.

Kirin is not literally tamed and controlled. It's guided.

Prove that it has chakra inside of it instead of making a non supported assumption

I did not make a case natural fire killing a character that you scaled to Tier 5. I made a case of Lighting growing an eye. Stop the false equivalence.
Guiding has a contextual reference to control. Stylishly asking for where it was stated is useless. The Databooks stated it's Light Speed, such un-natural occurrence can only be done via chakra in Narutoverse. You haven't yet Refuted the Databooks double light speed statement made in a non-hyperbolic manner, you are only attacking the support and failing at it which doesn't negate the initial premise. You can't objectively prove Sasuke did not imbue it with chakra, I can draw out a Logicality that he did due to the fact that the Databooks said the lighting is unnaturally faster than it should be. Natural Lighting can't be Kirin until it's used as a Jutsu i.e until chakra is used to manipulate it.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

the points ARC brought up seem pretty legit.

 

[Godernet]

the points ARC brought up seem pretty legit.

Is that a vote for Likely SOL like how Arc has it? Or Possibly SOL?

 

[Damage3245]

I am still definitely in disagreement with this. KT has pointed out the issues with this, and I can't believe the original manga (the primary source of canon here) is being disregarded so heavily.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Is that a vote for Likely SOL like how Arc has it? Or Possibly SOL?

prob a Possibly at best given that people are still split between the Manga vs Databooks and their interpretations

though im not sure how it would effect the scaling in any notable way , given the distance and time. you wouldnt have to be inherently SOL to react to it.