Kirin? More Like Kir-out :UsoppLaugh:

[Nami_Kami]

I'm literally quoting Sasuke himself who states that he is "in short, merely guiding its power" toward his target.


From the context it's easy to interpret their lines as meaning "Having no chakra left to do another jutsu" while still having enough bare minimum chakra to stay alive. Both Itachi and Sasuke say that Sauske has no chakra.


Not in that sense. Sasuke's jutsu, Kirin, directs all of the lightning available in a single strike. We can see actual lightning bolts going off in the background while the jutsu is building up. What Sasuke directs with Kirin is much bigger than these bolts, and so it is more destructive. That is how the lightning is "amped." But while using all of the available lightning makes sense to make it more destructive, I don't know if that makes sense to say it is necessarily much faster.

As I've said, it doesn't matter what is claimed if actions disprove this. As I've shown, Sasuke had the Sharingan on and he used a Chidori, things that require Chakra. He didn't simply have "the bare minimum to survive".

In the very panel you showed we see many lightning bolts striking the ground, with individual ones already causing way more damage than any natural lightning. This means that he didn't concentrate all of the lightnings into a single one. A lot of them were wasted on your panel. Furthermore, it's very questionable that a cloud this small can naturally produce lightnings this powerful even if we were to combine them.

I'd also like to mention that Kirin's mythical properties that debunk it simply being a natural lightning went unaddressed, and there is still no reason provided in this thread for Zetsu being reliable here when he was contradicted on so many occasions and when this is a Jutsu he's never seen before, plus him being under the false impression Sasuke had no Chakra.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Anyway I'm going to sleep. Will respond tomorrow if any further counters drop

 

[Stryker861]

Yea idk why we takin the word of a character who's never even seen the jutsu over statements the actual author made especially at a later period

 

[Golden_Void]

Literally no one said this

Kirin is guided natural lightning, is it not? Guides just dictate a destination, they don't actually influence the transport.

 

[That_moron2]

Kirin't is the better pun goober

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

 

[That_moron2]

Some people just can't appreciate natural comedic genius smh

 

[Deceived3596]

Instead of addressing everyone individually, I'm just going to address the points that are commonly talked about and are important to the thread.

1. Zetsu's Statement:

It has been said throughout this thread that Zetsu is an unreliable source as the statement he gave for Kirin is contradicted, either by him claiming the attack is unavoidable, but people can perceive and react to it, or him hyping up lightning speed as impressive despite several examples of the speed of light/ning being applicable to multiple characters below Kirin or Itachi. I'll say that, while I don't find all of the examples used justifiable, I won't entirely disregard the arguments either. I do believe that Zetsu's statement can be argued to have contradictory evidence against it, but that wasn't my intention with using him as a source in the first place.

What I'm using as a source is that he describes the attack as traveling at a certain speed, which is inductively supported by it being natural lightning. Both examples above can exist without it disproving the speed statement he gave as neither entails a contradiction to it since it's discussing the speed, numerically, which is distinct from what he believes is impressive or what he believes is unavoidable.

So this constant obsession with the Black Zetsu's statement is unhelpful for this thread and doesn't even begin to address why I'm using the statement in the first place.

2. Kirin's Speed:

People have posited several reasons why Kirin should be faster than a natural bolt of lightning would be. It ranges from Kirin producing more force compared to a natural bolt of lightning, possibly implying it has several other characteristics that aren't similar to a natural lightning bolt, or Kirin was enhanced by Chakra, and Chakra enhances things like speed, meaning Kirin's speed would also be enhanced as well.

I think all of these arguments are, in some way, missing important context.

With the first argument about it producing more force compared to a natural bolt of lightning implying other stuff is different as well. I don't completely disagree with this, it could be the case, I agree. The issue I have is that it only reaches that possibility threshold, but never goes beyond it. We can all day give possibilities, but until we can provide evidence of them being the case, either deductively or inductively, our opinions will always remain unsubstantiated and unusable for scaling.

The secondary argument just isn't contextually implied. Sasuke specifically says he's only merely funneling all of the energy from the storm cloud into a singular attack and releasing it. We have no reason to believe he's amplifying anything, unless we introduce something that is never stated or explained in any canonical medium. It's argued that since its appearance is changed, it could be or even must be the case that it's having its speed enhanced as well. A change in appearance doesn't imply a change in speed, even if it's done through Chakra, which can enhance speed - keyword, can. Unless we have reason outside of conjecture to believe he is enhancing its speed, we would assume it isn't because it's never stated that it is.

3: Semantics:

Finally, there is the point about semantics. Now, people believe that either the additional description hyping up the attack is not an exaggeration, or even if it is, it doesn't hold any bearing over the statement itself.

For those who believe it isn't an exaggeration - I have a question, what exactly do you define an exaggeration to be? If you describe it in terms like "hyping up something beyond what is shown", "to exaggerate beyond or below what is known about a particular thing" or anything of the sort. I would then ask, how exactly wouldn't these fall under an exaggerated statement. Both statements, especially the second one, are described as "unavoidable" (despite the fact Itachi did avoid it, not by moving his body out of the way, but through activating his Susanoo and blocking it) or being able to "blow away the opponent with no time to even blink" (which didn't happen with Itachi)

So we have two words if assumed literal would be contradictory to what is shown, and would thus call into question the legitimacy of the statements by the law of noncontradiction, or both are hyperbolic, which in that case, would also call into question the legitimacy of the statements for the same reason. Either way you look at it, the statements require further evidence outside of what is said in the databooks to support them being literal and uncontradicted.

For those who believe it's an exaggeration, but says it doesn't matter - by nature of exaggerations describing something in a figurative way, it would call into question the legitimacy of the statements in whole because an introduction of false evidence can cause an argument to logically explode unless dealt with. It needs to be addressed, we just can't hand wave this away and act like it doesn't matter.

In conclusion, I disagree with the criticism made against my argument. There are other arguments that I could make (@Shadowbokunohero actually brought up an interesting idea in DMs, but I neither believe I need it right now nor do I know much about to make it convincing given the knowledge it requires of other series)

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’m not exactly sure where the notion that Itachi avoided Kirin comes from. Reading chapter 391 again, we see Kirin slam into Itachi, and then next we see Itachi is face down on the ground. So, clearly his Susano’o did not enable him to completely avoid Kirin through the technicality of blocking the jutsu. It just blatantly didn’t even block the jutsu. The Susano’o got obliterated and Kirin slammed Itachi into the ground regardless. All the Susano’o did was eat enough of the damage such that Itachi wouldn’t die as he would if he took a direct hit. So, no we cannot claim that Itachi technically avoided Kirin via blocking, there’s no reason to assume such, and if anything it’s far more likely that he still got tagged by some of Kirin given his entire cloak is burned away. The only thing that could’ve destroyed his cloak completely like that would be Kirin, simply falling down doesn’t do that. All of this meaning that, 1) BZ isn’t even inherently incorrect when he calls the jutsu unavoidable in this context, and 2) he’s likely speaking in context of sick Itachi being incapable of completely avoiding it, given the context is Sasuke vs Itachi, as opposed to saying this jutsu is unavoidable to all people in all of history. The claims that his statement is contradictory are based upon interpretations that force a contradiction, when interpretations exist that don’t contradict anything. I don’t think I need to explain why an interpretation with the lesser amount of contradictions would be superior to the contrary.

 

[KingTempest]

Speaking of Naruto downgrades, didn't you say a while back that you wanted to get rid of Nardo's self-sustenance?

Yes but this ain't the thread for that

 

[SlendVeny]

Zetsu really went "Listen, buster, you're going 300k in a 35, I'm gonna have to give you a ticket."