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Kirin? More Like Kir-out :UsoppLaugh:

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Damage3245 said:
I'm literally quoting Sasuke himself who states that he is "in short, merely guiding its power" toward his target.


From the context it's easy to interpret their lines as meaning "Having no chakra left to do another jutsu" while still having enough bare minimum chakra to stay alive. Both Itachi and Sasuke say that Sauske has no chakra.


Not in that sense. Sasuke's jutsu, Kirin, directs all of the lightning available in a single strike. We can see actual lightning bolts going off in the background while the jutsu is building up. What Sasuke directs with Kirin is much bigger than these bolts, and so it is more destructive. That is how the lightning is "amped." But while using all of the available lightning makes sense to make it more destructive, I don't know if that makes sense to say it is necessarily much faster.
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As I've said, it doesn't matter what is claimed if actions disprove this. As I've shown, Sasuke had the Sharingan on and he used a Chidori, things that require Chakra. He didn't simply have "the bare minimum to survive".

In the very panel you showed we see many lightning bolts striking the ground, with individual ones already causing way more damage than any natural lightning. This means that he didn't concentrate all of the lightnings into a single one. A lot of them were wasted on your panel. Furthermore, it's very questionable that a cloud this small can naturally produce lightnings this powerful even if we were to combine them.

I'd also like to mention that Kirin's mythical properties that debunk it simply being a natural lightning went unaddressed, and there is still no reason provided in this thread for Zetsu being reliable here when he was contradicted on so many occasions and when this is a Jutsu he's never seen before, plus him being under the false impression Sasuke had no Chakra.
 
Instead of addressing everyone individually, I'm just going to address the points that are commonly talked about and are important to the thread.

1. Zetsu's Statement:

It has been said throughout this thread that Zetsu is an unreliable source as the statement he gave for Kirin is contradicted, either by him claiming the attack is unavoidable, but people can perceive and react to it, or him hyping up lightning speed as impressive despite several examples of the speed of light/ning being applicable to multiple characters below Kirin or Itachi. I'll say that, while I don't find all of the examples used justifiable, I won't entirely disregard the arguments either. I do believe that Zetsu's statement can be argued to have contradictory evidence against it, but that wasn't my intention with using him as a source in the first place.

What I'm using as a source is that he describes the attack as traveling at a certain speed, which is inductively supported by it being natural lightning. Both examples above can exist without it disproving the speed statement he gave as neither entails a contradiction to it since it's discussing the speed, numerically, which is distinct from what he believes is impressive or what he believes is unavoidable.

So this constant obsession with the Black Zetsu's statement is unhelpful for this thread and doesn't even begin to address why I'm using the statement in the first place.

2. Kirin's Speed:

People have posited several reasons why Kirin should be faster than a natural bolt of lightning would be. It ranges from Kirin producing more force compared to a natural bolt of lightning, possibly implying it has several other characteristics that aren't similar to a natural lightning bolt, or Kirin was enhanced by Chakra, and Chakra enhances things like speed, meaning Kirin's speed would also be enhanced as well.

I think all of these arguments are, in some way, missing important context.

With the first argument about it producing more force compared to a natural bolt of lightning implying other stuff is different as well. I don't completely disagree with this, it could be the case, I agree. The issue I have is that it only reaches that possibility threshold, but never goes beyond it. We can all day give possibilities, but until we can provide evidence of them being the case, either deductively or inductively, our opinions will always remain unsubstantiated and unusable for scaling.

The secondary argument just isn't contextually implied. Sasuke specifically says he's only merely funneling all of the energy from the storm cloud into a singular attack and releasing it. We have no reason to believe he's amplifying anything, unless we introduce something that is never stated or explained in any canonical medium. It's argued that since its appearance is changed, it could be or even must be the case that it's having its speed enhanced as well. A change in appearance doesn't imply a change in speed, even if it's done through Chakra, which can enhance speed - keyword, can. Unless we have reason outside of conjecture to believe he is enhancing its speed, we would assume it isn't because it's never stated that it is.

3: Semantics:

Finally, there is the point about semantics. Now, people believe that either the additional description hyping up the attack is not an exaggeration, or even if it is, it doesn't hold any bearing over the statement itself.

For those who believe it isn't an exaggeration - I have a question, what exactly do you define an exaggeration to be? If you describe it in terms like "hyping up something beyond what is shown", "to exaggerate beyond or below what is known about a particular thing" or anything of the sort. I would then ask, how exactly wouldn't these fall under an exaggerated statement. Both statements, especially the second one, are described as "unavoidable" (despite the fact Itachi did avoid it, not by moving his body out of the way, but through activating his Susanoo and blocking it) or being able to "blow away the opponent with no time to even blink" (which didn't happen with Itachi)

So we have two words if assumed literal would be contradictory to what is shown, and would thus call into question the legitimacy of the statements by the law of noncontradiction, or both are hyperbolic, which in that case, would also call into question the legitimacy of the statements for the same reason. Either way you look at it, the statements require further evidence outside of what is said in the databooks to support them being literal and uncontradicted.

For those who believe it's an exaggeration, but says it doesn't matter - by nature of exaggerations describing something in a figurative way, it would call into question the legitimacy of the statements in whole because an introduction of false evidence can cause an argument to logically explode unless dealt with. It needs to be addressed, we just can't hand wave this away and act like it doesn't matter.

In conclusion, I disagree with the criticism made against my argument. There are other arguments that I could make (@Shadowbokunohero actually brought up an interesting idea in DMs, but I neither believe I need it right now nor do I know much about to make it convincing given the knowledge it requires of other series)
 
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I’m not exactly sure where the notion that Itachi avoided Kirin comes from. Reading chapter 391 again, we see Kirin slam into Itachi, and then next we see Itachi is face down on the ground. So, clearly his Susano’o did not enable him to completely avoid Kirin through the technicality of blocking the jutsu. It just blatantly didn’t even block the jutsu. The Susano’o got obliterated and Kirin slammed Itachi into the ground regardless. All the Susano’o did was eat enough of the damage such that Itachi wouldn’t die as he would if he took a direct hit. So, no we cannot claim that Itachi technically avoided Kirin via blocking, there’s no reason to assume such, and if anything it’s far more likely that he still got tagged by some of Kirin given his entire cloak is burned away. The only thing that could’ve destroyed his cloak completely like that would be Kirin, simply falling down doesn’t do that. All of this meaning that, 1) BZ isn’t even inherently incorrect when he calls the jutsu unavoidable in this context, and 2) he’s likely speaking in context of sick Itachi being incapable of completely avoiding it, given the context is Sasuke vs Itachi, as opposed to saying this jutsu is unavoidable to all people in all of history. The claims that his statement is contradictory are based upon interpretations that force a contradiction, when interpretations exist that don’t contradict anything. I don’t think I need to explain why an interpretation with the lesser amount of contradictions would be superior to the contrary.
 
1. Zetsu's Statement:

It has been said throughout this thread that Zetsu is an unreliable source as the statement he gave for Kirin is contradicted, either by him claiming the attack is unavoidable, but people can perceive and react to it, or him hyping up lightning speed as impressive despite several examples of the speed of light/ning being applicable to multiple characters below Kirin or Itachi. I'll say that, while I don't find all of the examples used justifiable, I won't entirely disregard the arguments either. I do believe that Zetsu's statement can be argued to have contradictory evidence against it, but that wasn't my intention with using him as a source in the first place.

What I'm using as a source is that he describes the attack as traveling at a certain speed, which is inductively supported by it being natural lightning. Both examples above can exist without it disproving the speed statement he gave as neither entails a contradiction to it since it's discussing the speed, numerically, which is distinct from what he believes is impressive or what he believes is unavoidable.

So this constant obsession with the Black Zetsu's statement is unhelpful for this thread and doesn't even begin to address why I'm using the statement in the first place.
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To say that Zetsu being wrong on so many things during this scene is not helpful sounds a bit dishonest to me, as it demonstrates that the character is not reliable. Especially considering the fact that a lot of it would correlate to the power of the attack, like him being wrong that Sasuke was out-of-Chakra. We see that Sasuke used Chakra to use Kirin. Even if you want to speculate that Sasuke didn't amp it through Chakra, there is also the fact that the strength of a weapon depends on the user. We know Kirin had more power than a natural lightning and displayed properties no natural lightning has. Furthermore I am yet to see any reason why Zetsu is reliable when he hasn't seen the Jutsu before, nor has he ever heard of it, AND he made the statement before the attack was launched to begin with.

With the first argument about it producing more force compared to a natural bolt of lightning implying other stuff is different as well. I don't completely disagree with this, it could be the case, I agree. The issue I have is that it only reaches that possibility threshold, but never goes beyond it. We can all day give possibilities, but until we can provide evidence of them being the case, either deductively or inductively, our opinions will always remain unsubstantiated and unusable for scaling
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If you conceed that Kirin has power beyond a natural lightning then we can say that Sasuke was amping it or that it's more than a natural lightning. Something I've proven BTW using the fact that Kirin is verbatim a mythical beast and it's seen roaring. Also, Chakra boosts all stats as I've said, and I can give you 100 different scans for that. You also claim there is no evidence it was amped when the very fact WoG says it's LS twice would support that, as well as lesser characters already being MHS+.
The secondary argument just isn't contextually implied. Sasuke specifically says he's only merely funneling all of the energy from the storm cloud into a singular attack and releasing it. We have no reason to believe he's amplifying anything, unless we introduce something that is never stated or explained in any canonical medium. It's argued that since its appearance is changed, it could be or even must be the case that it's having its speed enhanced as well. A change in appearance doesn't imply a change in speed, even if it's done through Chakra, which can enhance speed - keyword, can. Unless we have reason outside of conjecture to believe he is enhancing its speed, we would assume it isn't because it's never stated that it is.
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Except we know Kirin scales above any natural lightning due to the destruction it showcased. So as noted above, either Sasuke amped it or Kirin is more than just the a natural lightning.
Both statements, especially the second one, are described as "unavoidable" (despite the fact Itachi did avoid it, not by moving his body out of the way, but through activating his Susanoo and blocking it) or being able to "blow away the opponent with no time to even blink" (which didn't happen with Itachi)
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By "avoiding" in this context they are reffering to dodging, since this is directly what Zetsu referenced in the manga. Therefore there is no contradiction. And can you show me Itachi blinking?
So we have two words if assumed literal would be contradictory to what is shown, and would thus call into question the legitimacy of the statements by the law of noncontradiction, or both are hyperbolic, which in that case, would also call into question the legitimacy of the statements for the same reason. Either way you look at it, the statements require further evidence outside of what is said in the databooks to support them being literal and uncontradicted.
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I don't think you managed to show me actual contradictions.
In conclusion, I disagree with the criticism made against my argument.
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Of course you would. Lol
 
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Kirin being stronger than an average bolt of lightning isn't proof of it being faster. You keep bringing up "it has more destructive force" and no one disagrees with that. The reason that is the case isn't because Sasuke is amping it with Chakra (Sasuke himself says the very opposite), it's because he pulls all the lightning from the cloud into a single bolt of lightning (read chapter 391, this is what we see happen verbatim). He uses up all the energy in the storm cloud causing it to dissipate after firing Kirin. So, obviously all the lightning in a storm funneled into one bolt is going to be stronger than a single individual bolt of lightning from that same cloud. Hard focusing on the AP/destructive force aspect of Kirin is strawmanning Deceived's argumentation, when his premise doesn't focus on the power of the Kirin jutsu at all.

The speed of the stepped leader of the bolt (the speed we actually care about here and what is referred to be the speed of lightning) is not influenced by the size of the lightning bolt or the amount of lightning from the cloud coalesced into the bolt. It is rather influenced by the medium (air) which it travels through. And the reason the stepped leader is the speed it is, is because the charge at the top of the cloud doesn't technically know where the opposite charge on the ground is, so it has to take 50 meter "steps" and pause as it "checks" the surrounding charge in the atmosphere. All of this is to say, in a potentially long winded fashion, that the fact Kirin utilizes all the lightning in the cloud has zero baring on its speed, as its speed is limited by the conditions of the atmosphere and mechanics of how a stepped leader works in general. Sasuke isn't altering the fundamental properties of lightning or manipulating the electric fields and current, he is merely coalescing all the lightning in the cloud into a single bolt and guiding it (per Sasuke's own admission, as the user of the jutsu he would know).

Furthermore, lightning in general encompasses more than just the bolt (the MHS/MHS+ stepped leader that we normal consider when talking about the speed of lightning). Lightning emits blackbody radiation, etc etc, meaning that lightning produces photons (no duh it's a giant bright bolt in the sky). So, when talking about the "speed of light" aspect of lightning it can merely refers to the light emitted from a bolt of lightning which is very much the speed of light. However, that is not the aspect of Kirin that would be incorporated into its attack speed, as that isn't the speed of the bolt itself, but rather the emitted light.

TLDR; all this talk about the power and destruction of Kirin meaning it isn't limited by the speed of lightning is all one giant non-sequitur that holds zero weight in addressing Deceived's argument about whether or not those databook statements actually mean the Kirin bolt of lightning is light speed or not.
 
To sum up: The guide isn't inherently contradicted, which was one of two arguments for why Kirin isn't LS.
The other argument is that Zetsu may or may not have implied it's lightning-speed but NOBODY in this thread has yet given a reason for why Zetsu is reliable, and I've proven the opposite.
The claim Kirin is a regular lightning falls apart when you see it's a mythical beast that roars and scales much above a regular lightning.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Kirin being stronger than an average bolt of lightning isn't proof of it being faster. You keep bringing up "it has more destructive force" and no one disagrees with that. The reason that is the case isn't because Sasuke is amping it with Chakra (Sasuke himself says the very opposite), it's because he pulls all the lightning from the cloud into a single bolt of lightning (read chapter 391, this is what we see happen verbatim). He uses up all the energy in the storm cloud causing it to dissipate after firing Kirin. So, obviously all the lightning in a storm funneled into one bolt is going to be stronger than a single individual bolt of lightning from that same cloud. Hard focusing on the AP/destructive force aspect of Kirin is strawmanning Deceived's argumentation, when his premise doesn't focus on the power of the Kirin jutsu at all.

The speed of the stepped leader of the bolt (the speed we actually care about here and what is referred to be the speed of lightning) is not influenced by the size of the lightning bolt or the amount of lightning from the cloud coalesced into the bolt. It is rather influenced by the medium (air) which it travels through. And the reason the stepped leader is the speed it is, is because the charge at the top of the cloud doesn't technically know where the opposite charge on the ground is, so it has to take 50 meter "steps" and pause as it "checks" the surrounding charge in the atmosphere. All of this is to say, in a potentially long winded fashion, that the fact Kirin utilizes all the lightning in the cloud has zero baring on its speed, as its speed is limited by the conditions of the atmosphere and mechanics of how a stepped leader works in general. Sasuke isn't altering the fundamental properties of lightning or manipulating the electric fields and current, he is merely coalescing all the lightning in the cloud into a single bolt and guiding it (per Sasuke's own admission, as the user of the jutsu he would know).

Furthermore, lightning in general encompasses more than just the bolt (the MHS/MHS+ stepped leader that we normal consider when talking about the speed of lightning). Lightning emits blackbody radiation, etc etc, meaning that lightning produces photons (no duh it's a giant bright bolt in the sky). So, when talking about the "speed of light" aspect of lightning it can merely refers to the light emitted from a bolt of lightning which is very much the speed of light. However, that is not the aspect of Kirin that would be incorporated into its attack speed, as that isn't the speed of the bolt itself, but rather the emitted light.

TLDR; all this talk about the power and destruction of Kirin meaning it isn't limited by the speed of lightning is all one giant non-sequitur that holds zero weight in addressing Deceived's argument about whether or not those databook statements actually mean the Kirin bolt of lightning is light speed or not.
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I already disproved this as the very scan that was used to claim all lightning was combined into a single volt shows that many seperate lightning bolts hit the ground prior, each showing more damage than a normal lightning. Your argument would also require you to prove that such a small cloud can generate a lightning this strong naturally even if we were to combine them. Which is a ridiculous claim to make. It also doesn't matter if his premise isn't about the power, if Sasuke managed to amp it's power then you would have to present valid evidence for why he didn't amp it's speed.

That doesn't matter as I've proven Kirin is not limited to a natural lightning. Appealing to Reality, which is a fallacy, to say it's speed depends on the medium it travels in, is downright ridiculous. A mythical being that can roar made of lightning doesn't exactly qualify as a natural lightning.

No, the scans verbatim say Kirin approaches the enemy at light-speed. To try to say it only reffers to the light emitted by it is a massive stretch.

I've already explained it's relevancy, since OP's argument relies on Kirin being a natural lightning that is simoly being directed. The fact it scales above what a natural lightning can do debunks this notion. It doesn't matter whether it's through power or speed.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
That isn't Deceived's argument. That is a strawman, and my recent post explains why.
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There is no strawman on my part. OP uses Zetsu's statement to try to argue against WoG, which would require evidence that Zetsu is a reliable source. If you can't provide it then argument is meaningless. Maybe read before you call me out on non-existent strawmans.
 
Nami_Kami said:
I already disproved this as the very scan that was used to claim all lightning was combined into a single volt shows that many seperate lightning bolts hit the ground prior, each showing more damage than a normal lightning. Your argument would also require you to prove that such a small cloud can generate a lightning this strong naturally even if we were to combine them. Which is a ridiculous claim to make. It also doesn't matter if his premise isn't about the power, if Sasuke managed to amp it's power then you would have to present valid evidence for why he didn't amp it's speed.

That doesn't matter as I've proven Kirin is not limited to a natural lightning. Appealing to Reality, which is a fallacy, to say it's speed depends on the medium it travels in, is downright ridiculous. A mythical being that can roar made of lightning doesn't exactly qualify as a natural lightning.

No, the scans verbatim say Kirin approaches the enemy at light-speed. To try to say it only reffers to the light emitted by it is a massive stretch.

I've already explained it's relevancy, since OP's argument relies on Kirin being a natural lightning that is simoly being directed. The fact it scales above what a natural lightning can do debunks this notion. It doesn't matter whether it's through power or speed.
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If you're going to keep bringing up that the lightning has more destructive force, and not address my response on why that doesn't matter for it's speed, then we can just agree to disagree. I'm not going to argue in circles with you. The fact of the matter is, you're equivocating two things that don't have any inherent connection. I'll just let the staff evaluating the thread to decide which argument is more convincing.
 
I still don't understand why we wouldent be using the most recent information on kirin(that being the databook statements, the first one in particular) over what the manga may say. At the end of day we can interpret the manga however we want but if new information comes out about something and it's in the form of a databook meant to give us knowledge on something that may have not been expressed before, we should likely implement that information because its the most up to date. I get the questiobility of the 2nd statement and how it being called unavoidable would call in to question the rest of the statement but if we are just discarding statements for that reason than we shouldn't be using lightfang either.I personally am not of the opion that one part of a sentence being exaggerated should mean that everything else is bunk.

Also @Shadowbokunohero can you share the other statment for ls kirin?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
If you're going to keep bringing up that the lightning has more destructive force, and not address my response on why that doesn't matter for it's speed, then we can just agree to disagree. I'm not going to argue in circles with you. The fact of the matter is, you're equivocating two things that don't have any inherent connection. I'll just let the staff evaluating the thread to decide which argument is more convincing.
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I addressed literally every single argument you made. Meanwhile half of my points have been straight up ignored by 3 different people with nobody addressing them in any way, shape or form. And no, I've explained what relevancy the power boost has to this thread. Simply saying it's not relevant is not a good argument.
 
Naruto fans when the manga just isn't powerful enough:



These last few arguments basically rewrite the script and make connections where no connections exist.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
100% agreed with OP
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spongebob-mild-bobby-sauce.gif
 
Yeah it looks like 90% of yall straight up don't understand how lightning even works, or how Kirin even works, or even the fight itself. Especially @Nami_Kami

Statements like "no chakra left" don't mean "absolutely no chakra in your body whatsoever", because that means death.
Zetsu said "looks like they're out of chakra". Itachi said "I can see your chakra. Stop lying. You ran out". Sasuke says "yeah you're right, I used the rest on this".
So unless you think Itachi and Sasuke are both liars, your interpretation is just blatantly wrong.

Kirin doesn't amplify the speed of natural lightning whatsoever. all it does is tell it where to go.
This is stated by Sasuke. He "tames" lightning, He doesn't amplify its speed or yank it. He connects to it and tells it where to go.

Yall also sound ignorant. "I don't know why we take the words of the character over the author".
Who wrote the words of the character? The databook is secondary canon to the manga. The manga is the direct canon, the databook can be warded off if the manga justifiably contradicts it.
Zetsu says Sasuke tamed lightning, the databook says Sasuke tamed lightning.
Zetsu says Sasuke doesn't have to use a lot of chakra, Sasuke shows he doesn't have to use a lot of chakra, the databook says Sasuke doesn't have to use a lot of chakra.
Zetsu says the flames from his dragon amplified the cloud to create lightning, the databook says the same.
But because Zetsu says "ohhhhhhh 1/1000th of a second", now he's apparently not an authority.

Zetsu is probably the largest authority in this series, especially from his overtime wisdom from looking at literally every event in shinobi history, you're telling me he doesn't know enough to be a jurisdated authority on... a lightning bolt?
If a person knows the mechanics behind gold dust, they don't need to see the fourth Kazekage use gold dust before they can understand his ability.

Also stop talking about its AP. Lightning's speed is not dependent on its electron count or its AP whatsoever. That's just ignorance. The strongest and weakest lightning bolt on earth have the same speed.

In reference to Godernet's arguments, raiton jutsu is only lightning speed because of our wiki's logic, not because it's lightning speed in canon. Just like if we could calc Kid Naruto moving relativistic but if kid struggles w/ some bullets we don't use the calc over the inverse logic.

Also, Zetsu's statement is not hypothetical. He said Sasuke confirmed his suspicions.
Initially it was "It's impossible to evade?"
Then Sasuke said "all I do is tell the lightning to strike you".
And Zetsu said "just as I thought. This is why it can't be evaded. Lightning is this fast."

So this isn't a hypothetical, this is confirmation. Zetsu understood what Sasuke was saying, but apparently Zetsu's wrong in basic comprehension skills even though we give him a genius rating.

Move me to fully agreeing
 
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Ngl, Zetsu's "impossible" statement might just be in reference to Itachi himself being unable to dodge something moving that fast.

I still do think Kirin is SoL, but the line between flowery language and direct fact is too arbitrary to directly define.
 
KingTempest said:
Kirin doesn't amplify the speed of natural lightning whatsoever. all it does is tell it where to go.
This is stated by Sasuke. He "tames" lightning, He doesn't amplify its speed or yank it. He connects to it and tells it where to go.

Yall also sound ignorant. "I don't know why we take the words of the character over the author".
Who wrote the words of the character? The databook is secondary canon to the manga. The manga is the direct canon, the databook can be warded off if the manga justifiably contradicts it.
Zetsu says Sasuke tamed lightning, the databook says Sasuke tamed lightning.
Zetsu says Sasuke doesn't have to use a lot of chakra, Sasuke shows he doesn't have to use a lot of chakra, the databook says Sasuke doesn't have to use a lot of chakra.
Zetsu says the flames from his dragon amplified the cloud to create lightning, the databook says the same.
But because Zetsu says "ohhhhhhh 1/1000th of a second", now he's apparently not an authority.

Zetsu is probably the largest authority in this series, especially from his overtime wisdom from looking at literally every event in shinobi history, you're telling me he doesn't know enough to be a jurisdated authority on... a lightning bolt?
If a person knows the mechanics behind gold dust, they don't need to see the fourth Kazekage use gold dust before they can understand his ability.

Also stop talking about its AP. Lightning's speed is not dependent on its electron count or its AP whatsoever. That's just ignorance. The strongest and weakest lightning bolt on earth have the same speed.

In reference to Godernet's arguments, raiton jutsu is only lightning speed because of our wiki's logic, not because it's lightning speed in canon. Just like if we could calc Kid Naruto moving relativistic but if kid struggles w/ some bullets we don't use the calc over the inverse logic.

Also, Zetsu's statement is not hypothetical. He said Sasuke confirmed his suspicions.
Initially it was "It's impossible to evade?"
Then Sasuke said "all I do is tell the lightning to strike you".
And Zetsu said "just as I thought. This is why it can't be evaded. Lightning is this fast."

So this isn't a hypothetical, this is confirmation. Zetsu understood what Sasuke was saying, but apparently Zetsu's wrong in basic comprehension skills even though we give him a genius rating.

Move me to fully agreeing
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Let's just ignore all the things Zetsu got wrong to pretend he is reliable on an attack that was never seen by him before and wasn't even launched yet.

Let's ignore how Kirin is seen and shown being more than a natural lightning, with it being verbatim a mythical beast that's seen and heard roaring. Doesn't seem like a natural lightning that's just being controlled to me. But hey, let's just nit-pick evidence, am I right?

And no, Zetsu didn't say Sasuke doesn't have to use much Chakra. He outright said he had no Chakra. I don't see why you twist the statement here to make it consistent with the guide.

"Zetsu is a genius"
This same genius acted like sound-speed is a big deal in a series where low-tiers can outspeed that. A smart character can say dumb things due to bad writing.

Even if we were to ignore this, since Kirin hasn't been launched yet, there is no reason to believe that he would know whether it was amped beyond a natural lightning. Which we know it was.

Ignoring the fact that Kirin showcased power that no cloud this size can produce even if it's lightnings were to combine into one, when as I've proven Kirin was not just 1 lightning since about a dozen lightnings striking the ground on the very panel ya'll used to try to prove it. Funny stuff.

Statements like "no chakra left" don't mean "absolutely no chakra in your body whatsoever", because that means death.
Zetsu said "looks like they're out of chakra". Itachi said "I can see your chakra. Stop lying. You ran out". Sasuke says "yeah you're right, I used the rest on this".
So unless you think Itachi and Sasuke are both liars, your interpretation is just blatantly wrong.
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I like how you completely ignored how Sasuke still had the Sharingan on and even used a Chidori, things that use a decent amount of Chakra. If their definition of 'no Chakra' is a level where Sasuke can still use multiple high-on Chakra moves, then the argument still stands. As I've argued earlier, statements like this mean nothing if actions go against them. You've essentially done nothing to refute my point. You just repeated an argument that was addressed early on in this thread. Same dude calling me ignorant. 😂
 
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if we accept zetsu statement are we allowed to use his timeframe to make calcs involving people like raikage who have in verse statements of lightning speed?
 
karo_senpaii said:
if we accept zetsu statement are we allowed to use his timeframe to make calcs involving people like raikage who have in verse statements of lightning speed?
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No that’s calc stacking, but also there’s going to be a follow up thread to discuss if we should use average lightning speed for Kirin or use the time frame stated and calc the distance.
 
Deceived3596 said:
With @KingTempest switching his neutral position to a full agreement, I have enough votes to apply the revision. I'll wait until tomorrow since I believe this technically falls under a "non-simple change" and would thus require an additional day to pass before it can be applied without issue.
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With this, I'll add the change here shortly. Additionally, another thread will be made right after this one to find out which interpretation we're going to use now for Kirin's speed, as this thread only dealt with removing the light speed rating, not also adding another speed rating after it was removed.
 
SlendVeny said:
How is using a statement calc stacking?
Click to expand...
It's not a speed statement. It's a time frame. To get the Kirin speed from that statement you'd have to pixel scale the distance between the cloud and ground. Then you'd calculate the speed. So, if you wanted to use the Kirin value in other calcs, that'd be calc stacking. Also, lightning doesn't have a single one speed, lightning speed can very from like MHS to almost Sub-Rel, which is why we use an average speed of lightning (MHS+) when calculating based on lightning speed statements.
 
Nami_Kami said:
Let's just ignore all the things Zetsu got wrong to pretend he is reliable on an attack that was never seen by him before and wasn't even launched yet.

Let's ignore how Kirin is seen and shown being more than a natural lightning, with it being verbatim a mythical beast that's seen and heard roaring. Doesn't seem like a natural lightning that's just being controlled to me. But hey, let's just nit-pick evidence, am I right?

And no, Zetsu didn't say Sasuke doesn't have to use much Chakra. He outright said he had no Chakra. I don't see why you twist the statement here to make it consistent with the guide.

"Zetsu is a genius"
This same genius acted like sound-speed is a big deal in a series where low-tiers can outspeed that. A smart character can say dumb things due to bad writing.

Even if we were to ignore this, since Kirin hasn't been launched yet, there is no reason to believe that he would know whether it was amped beyond a natural lightning. Which we know it was.

Ignoring the fact that Kirin showcased power that no cloud this size can produce even if it's lightnings were to combine into one, when as I've proven Kirin was not just 1 lightning since about a dozen lightnings striking the ground on the very panel ya'll used to try to prove it. Funny stuff.


I like how you completely ignored how Sasuke still had the Sharingan on and even used a Chidori, things that use a decent amount of Chakra. If their definition of 'no Chakra' is a level where Sasuke can still use multiple high-on Chakra moves, then the argument still stands. As I've argued earlier, statements like this mean nothing if actions go against them. You've essentially done nothing to refute my point. You just repeated an argument that was addressed early on in this thread. Same dude calling me ignorant. 😂
Click to expand...
Kirin is shown and seen to be more than natural lightning in AP. It is a "mythical beast" in appearance because Sasuke uses his lightning to shape the damn bolt. It is natural lightning because it is caused via natural occurrences, he just shapes it for his own goals. It does not roar, it makes a large sound of thunder that is akin to a roar because of its composition of lightning.

Sasuke and Itachi confirmed he had no chakra, yet it shows he had enough to do Kirin. Why are you ignoring that?

Sound-speed is a big deal in the series. Low tiers don't outspeed sound in the series. That has been changed on this wiki from our last threads. That isn't bad writing, that's a lack of comprehension. Don't call it dumb when you just don't know the damn series.

He said "it's a natural lightning bolt, Sasuke doesn't amp the bolt via his own words since he just needs to use the lightning in the sky to do it. Then he 'tames it', and uses that lightning to do a single attack"

Are you okay? Did we all not say the power does not matter at all? Why do you keep bringing it up?

It is one bolt comprised of multiple. It literally fuses together as a single bolt. Wtf are you talking about.

Sasuke's the one who said he has no chakra. So if you wanna keep sounding stupid and ignoring Zetsu while considering Sasuke even though Sasuke disagrees with you, then you can get tf on. Sasuke does a single high on chakra move while manipulating a natural bolt with a very low on chakra move? Stop talking please.
 
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Arc7Kuroi said:
It's not a speed statement. It's a time frame. To get the Kirin speed from that statement you'd have to pixel scale the distance between the cloud and ground. Then you'd calculate the speed. So, if you wanted to use the Kirin value in other calcs, that'd be calc stacking. Also, lightning doesn't have a single one speed, lightning speed can very from like MHS to almost Sub-Rel, which is why we use an average speed of lightning (MHS+) when calculating based on lightning speed statements.
Click to expand...
no i'm saying using the time frame in other calcs. The article linked there is a time frame for each lightning step there and considering the timeframe is directly in line with the total time frame zetsu gives what's wrong i using that time frame in a scene involving a lightning timer?
 
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