Hades Game Discussion

[FireSwordHero]

Any Chance we could start a discussion on the hades game by SuperGiant game? This game has out for more than 3 years (or 10 months if you only count the official release date), yet there haven't been any discussions about the series or any attempts to do any calculations/make profiles for the series. I feel like with how long the game has been out, I think it would be fair to create a verse for this game.

Link to the game wiki page for those who don't know what this game is

 

[Dragoonseraphim]

I love hades but unfortunately stuff like calcs isn’t my area of expertise. I’ll help however I can though.

 

[Cropfist]

There is a sandbox page for Zagreus.

 

[Fireld]

There is a lifting strength calc already accepted. Maybe sb could put Zagreus moving in tandem with Zeus' lighting in the calc request thread?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Bump.

Finished the profile a while ago.

The lightning dodge is based on the RPG-style dodge chance (which is raised pretty high in certain builds), which is applicable to the lightning Zeus summons. Lightning vs Zagreus or a boss' dash would be an interesting comparision, though the prespective can make it difficult to get distance for the lightning.

So we should make a verse page and character pages for different gods? The character pages should be relatively easy to make; finish a single page, and then plug in their abilities from Zagreus' page.

Also any ideas for good matches? Was thinking matches against Kingdom Hearts and Bleach characters.

 

[Fireld]

You haven't added the boulder calc yet.

Maybe, we could find the speed of dashing in relation to the lightning by comparing their frames or sth?

As for matches: Characters from Monster Strike, Percy Jackson & God of Highschool. Maybe Nikandreos(probably a stomp).

 

[FireSwordHero]

The Profile for Zagreus looks nice (I really need to learn how to make character profiles properly).

The only thing though I should say is that perhaps there should be a key for early game Zagreus, mid game Zagreus and Late game Zagreus, as I don't think he should scale to the other gods early into the game. (game in this sense referring to the number of runs Zagreus himself has done, not each individual runs)
As the gameplay and story are very integrated, in that gameplay actions and decisions are noted by the characters, deaths themselves are canon if allowed to happen and are acknowledged by the cast, and that the Pact of Punishment is referenced in the story itself, I think that the keys themselves should reflect the skill of a "theoretical" player as they themselves get better.

The reason I think so is because its noted by characters in game that Zagreus at first requires aid from both his foster mother Nyx to empower himself with the darkness necessary to make him stronger in base form and titan blood to empower his own weapons, but by the late game he is noted by Nyx to have become "united with the darkness" (implying that his darkness bestowed power has become his base), is capable of defeating megara without the darkness empowerment or hades without the god boons (both of which are acknowledged in the game by the characters), and even capable of beating his father when the latter is amped up in both speed and strength by the pact of punishment (which is acknowledged in the game as existing and so can canonically double Hades strength)

Also, I don't think Megara, the Hydra, or Asterius (and the other dude) should scale to Zagreus and Hades once Zagreus becomes strong enough to reach the surface, as even Megara herself states after enough runs that she becomes no longer capable of fighting him, only capable of slowing him down, when in earlier runs Megara can beat Zagreus easily. Not to mention it would be a huge outlier for someone like Megara to scale to a late game Zagreus, who in turn scales to Hades, when Megara herself is stated to be far weaker than Hades and was more terrified of disobeying Hades than fighting an early game Zagreus.

With that being said, here's my opinion.

• Early Game/Story (Tartarus-Asphodel): Zagreus should start off as fairly weak in terms of AP, only scaling to his pillar crushing feat, but can be listed as "higher with boons" as they do make him stronger than what he himself should be capable of at the moment, especially with his calls as certain calls can one-shot bosses if allowed. Megara, the other furies, the hydra and most fodder monsters should also scale to that. As canonically in game Zagreus has to use chthonic keys and darkness in order to unlock his shadow empowerments, Zagreus himself should not have all his abilities that comes from the shadow, such as resurrection (alternatively, he could also just be restricted to one resurrection early game, as Goddamit the shadow cost is expensive to unlock all 3). Additionally I am unsure if Zagreus should scale speed wise to Zeus lighting attack this early, as Zeus only offers boons from the second escape attempt onward, and is extremely unlikely for the lightning dodge feat to occur unless there is a trial of the gods, which itself is rare.
• Mid Game (Elisyum-Surface) - Zagreus should be listed as "6A with boons, likely 4C" as while he can beat hades, its clear at this point he required empowerments from his godly relatives to do and while having his shadow empowerments (it should also be noted that Hades himself wasn't fighting at full power) Zagreus should at this point scale to Zeus's lightning as aside from being capable of fighting Theseus (the prick) who can summon Zeus as one of his attacks, he can also defeat his father who is comparable/faster to Zeus's lightning attacks. The elysium bosses and minibosses, the temple of styx minibosses and a restriced Hades should scale to him. The fodder in these stages could also possibly scale, but I dont think so myself.
• Late Game (after many runs): Zagreus at this point should be powerful enough to be 6A/4C by himself. At this point he is stated by Nyx to have become united with the darkness, implying that he has made the darkness empowerment are part of his base. He eventually becomes strong enough he is capable of fighting a full powered Hades, who can also have his strength doubled with one of the conditions from the pact of punishment. Also, it should likely be canon that at this point, he should also be capable of fighting most of the bosses and a restricted Hades without requiring either his shadow amps or boons from the gods, which is also noted in the game and so should likely be canon. The last part could also be applied a full powered hades, but that is way too far of an assumption and I have probably pushed my limit with them at least three times over.

I will say that a lot of what I just said was just pure rambling (sinces its very late atm for me), but I do want to note that I do think Zagreus should have different keys for different stages of the game, as it should be noted that Hades is a very story and gameplay integrated game, where even things that are just gameplay modifiers, such as the pact of punishment, are things that are noted to exist in the world of Hades and are not just gameplay only additions that exist only to the players themselves, and that things that the player does, such as fighting hades with no boons, are things that are acknowledged in the game and so can be canon. Meaning that the experience of playing the game, getting better and getting stronger are things that can happen in the game and so should be canon as part of Zagreus's keys.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Looked into the game's script, don't think early game scaling is needed.

There is dialogue for reaching Hades in the first run, so Zagreus is always capable of beating everyone (except maybe Hades when he isn't holding back, though that is up to the air):

Spoiler: Facing Hades in first run

Hades: "It should not have had to come to this. For all your antics with me and around the House, I always kept my temper, have I not? Unlike you."

Zagreus: "Well let's see. You've berated me repeatedly and often. You've lied to me. Mustered a bunch of incompetent wretches to try to kill me. But, sure, I'll grant you that you've always kept most of your anger bottled up. All that's about to change, then?"

Hades: "We're gods, boy. Killing one another is our lot. Although, I always thought I was above it. I told you that you cannot leave this place. It seems I must enforce my rules myself. I'm sending you home, now."

[Normal dialogue]

Zagreus: "Well, let's see. You've berated me repeatedly and often. You've lied to me. Mustered your wretched forces to kill me, over and over. But, sure, I'll grant you that you've always kept most of your anger bottled up. All that's about to change, then?"

Not only is it possible for Zagreus to beat Megaera without the Nyx's Mirror empowering him, there is a questline about his skills growing enough to do so after turning off all his Mirror upgrades.

Spoiler: Defeating Megaera

Nyx: "You appear to have grown stronger since when last we interacted, child. Your bedroom mirror may appear to be the cause... but then of course the real cause is you."

[...]

Nyx: "The unfathomable power of the Underworld thrives within you, child. Your godliness has grown since last we spoke; you have learned much of harnessing the dark."

[...]

Nyx: "Even among those born longest ago within the deepest reaches of the Underworld... I have seldom encountered anyone so united with the Darkness of this domain as you are, child."

Zagreus: "United with the Darkness? I've just... been picking it up here and there. Although, for quite a while, since you mention it! I'm not sure that I feel any different, though."

Nyx: "Surely that is not so. Think back on when you started all of this. You now know so much more. Are capable of so much more."

[...]

Nyx: "You have revealed every facet of the Mirror of Night, child. The full extent of its power. I was aware this was possible, yet... you achieved it sooner than expected."

Zagreus: "I don't know where I'd be without it. Probably still in Tartarus trying to get past Meg. I only wish I could get even stronger."

Nyx: "The Mirror has little to do with your power, let alone your capability. You may deactivate its effects and see for yourself. It merely gave you greater opportunity to learn. And you shall continue to do so."

[...]

Megaera: "Zagreus. Good, I wanted to tell you something. Your victories against me? They don't count for anything."

Zagreus: "Sounds like you've been giving this a lot of thought, there, Meg. How do you figure?"

Megaera: "Nyx's Mirror. You couldn't possibly beat me without its help, or hers."

Zagreus: "I'm not competing with you, Meg. I'm trying to get past you, to the surface."

Megaera: "Call it what you want. You're doing what you have to do. I understand. But you are not stronger than me. You just have more help."

[...low relationship...]

Megaera: "Beaten. By you. Without the help of Nyx's mirror. You humiliated me. And now you've come to rub it in, I guess? Well, go on, then. Not like you can shame me any more."

Zagreus: "Meg, what is it going to take for you to quit treating me like I'm incompetent? Have I not grown even a little since we met? You were supposed to teach me something; what does that make you?"

Megaera: Tsch... why don't you raise your voice a little louder so that all the House can hear. Is that what you want? For everyone to know that you're superior to me?"

Zagreus: "You're not hearing me, Meg. I know it sounds a little disingenuous considering we keep fighting to the death and all, but... I never meant to hurt you."

Megaera: "You give yourself far too much credit, Zagreus. Leave me alone."

[...high relationship...]

Megaera: "Beaten. By you. Without the help of Nyx's mirror. You humiliated me. And now you've come to rub it in, I guess? Well, go on, then. Not like you can shame me any more."

Zagreus: "Meg, that isn't why I'm here, you know that isn't how I am. Why can't you see it? All I've ever wanted was to prove myself to you."

Megarea: Tsch... you think that you can prove yourself to me by winning in a fight?

Zagreus: "Sometimes I think that I can never really win with you, Meg. If I held back, what would you have thought?"

Megaera: "If you think you know me so well, Zagreus, then you ought to know better than to keep this conversation going with me, now."

[...close relationship...]

Megaera: "I can't believe it, Zag. I thought for sure that Nyx's mirror was the only reason you could beat me. I knew you'd changed to some extent, but... not this much."

Zagreus: "I had to see if I could do it, Meg. I've learned so much from you, I... thought maybe this was a way that I could prove myself to you. And to myself."

Megaera: "Prove yourself, to me...? You must not be as comfortable in your own skin as you let on. I can't decide if I like that about you. Now leave me alone while I give it some thought."

Achilles was a human, but according to Zagreus he is capable of beating a top-tier demigod like Heracles, and his spear is the same Titan-slaying Infernal Arm Hades and Zagreus use taking a different form. Furthermore, Zagreus suggests that the Asterius is the physically strongest person he knows and he is not sure Heracles is stronger:

Spoiler: Achilles and Infernal Arms

Achilles: "Quite a statue you commissioned over there. I suppose I can think of worse subjects than mighty Heracles for me to have to stand about and stare at."

Zagreus: "They say he was the strongest demigod who ever lived. Though, I bet you could take him, sir. Big guy like that, you'd be too quick, I'm sure. You ever meet him?"

Achilles: "Only in passing. He once died a mortal's death... worse than mine. Had a brief stint down here, but... he's favored by Olympus. Got a special arrangement of some sort, I heard. Haven't seen him since."

[...]

Zagreus: "I've had the opportunity to use your aspect of Varatha, sir. So, you once wielded it yourself? It... fills me with a hunger for battle even more so than usual. A bit of your fighting spirit, perhaps."

Achilles: "Be very wary of that spirit, lad. It was what brought me here before my time. Although that spear indeed once served me well. A parting gift from my old master Chiron. He cautioned me as I am cautioning you. Though, may you be a better listener."

[...]

Zagreus: "Achilles, I meant to ask, did you know that Coronacht the Heart-Seeker once belonged to the centaur, Chiron? Because one of its aspects is his own. He didn't have it back when you trained with him, did he...?"

Achilles: "Master Chiron, truly...? Ah, of course. He granted me a spear, I think you know. If he possessed one such weapon, why not more? I remember his bow shined like the sun. It was splendid, and never missed its mark... though I attributed that to Chiron's extraordinary skill."

[...]

Achilles: "As you may know, lad, I've a connection to the weapons that you use, having once wielded one of them myself. Of course not knowing its significance back then, but I digress. Sometimes, it... well, it keeps in touch. And I've a vision from it to impart."

Zagreus: "What, you mean a vision from Varatha the Eternal Spear? That's... out of the ordinary, and also a bit concerning. So, what did you see?"

Achilles: "Well... I saw a great, bearded warrior. Bigger than me, pitch-black hair. Bearing an aspect of Varatha unlike any with which I'm familiar. Then he was gone. But, what still lingered were these words: I see you through the eyes of the crimson phoenix."

Zagreus: "Well... I saw a great, bearded warrior. Bigger than me, pitch-black hair. Bearing an aspect of Varatha unlike any with which I'm familiar. Then he was gone. But, what still lingered were these words: I see you through the eyes of the crimson phoenix."

Achilles: "There's one more thing. This was not my first such vision. Long ago... I saw one of Varatha's other bearers. It was you. Your Infernal Arms... they must be weapons of the Fates' design. They know already who shall brandish them. Now they ask a favor. Seek Varatha. Speak the words. Go."

[...]

Artemis: "Hey, that can't possibly be the spear once wielded by the great Achilles, there, can it?! The shape is unmistakable, I mean, have you even the slightest just how many mortals got completely slaughtered by that thing? Oh, it has seen some use!" },

[...]

Artemis: "That's not the Coronacht I know, isn't that... Chiron the centaur's bow? So that was Coronacht, as well? Seems every decent bow was just a version of that thing! Except for mine, of course." },

[...]

Ares: "Why, I believe that is the Frost Fair Blade you bear! I understand it shall become the instrument of choice of yet another god of war, someday. I long to meet him, this fellow student of death." },

[...]

Zagreus: "Achilles...! Something awakened in Varatha when I spoke the words. It revealed to me a form I'd never seen. Wielded by the warrior called Guan Yu. Handsomely dressed! And just as you described. That's no Greek name, is it..."

Achilles: "No, I don't think so, lad. I don't know who this Guan Yu is, or where he's from. Or even when he's from. But the Fates must have a plan for him, and you. Anyway... I think my part in this is ended. Varatha's served you well, no? I trusted it in life; I trust it now. Fear is for the weak."

[...]

Zagreus: "Achilles, something I've been wondering... now that I've discovered all the hidden aspects of my weapons... as far as I know, anyway... I can't see any pattern there, at all. Guan Yu, Gilgamesh, Rama, and so on... any idea why them?"

Achilles: "To know for certain, I suppose you'd have to ask the Fates, themselves... and get an answer from them, too. I ask myself how come you found an aspect of mine, among them all. What made me so special, do you suppose?"

Zagreus: "You were a great warrior! Famous, in your time! It's no surprise to me at all the Fates chose you to have a stint with one of their world-altering weapons."

Achilles: "Well, that's just it! I was quite famous, yes. Infamous, perhaps, but no matter. Perhaps it's just that these weapons demand to make themselves known, above all. To leave a lasting impression in the hands of their wielders."

Zagreus: "You think the Infernal Arms just want to be popular? Have exciting stories told about them and whatnot?"

[...]

Achilles: "The sealed weapons by your chambers; your father won't observe their absence, I don't think. They remind him of a time he stood together with his brothers and sisters. He wants nothing more to do with any of that. I think it's fitting you've inherited their power."

Zagreus: "A power that once sealed away the Titans... maybe it's a power that can break me out of here. Thank you for helping me, Achilles."

[...]

Zagreus: "I got acquainted with the Twin Fists of Malphon recently, sir. Fills me with a kind of battle-hunger I'd not felt before. To think the empty hand could have as much destructive force as any weapon."

Achilles: "The empty hand has more destructive force than any weapon, lad. It is the only weapon that can wield all others. And without it, all others are nearly powerless. The Twin Fists are a testament to that. Use them with care. Don't lose your head out there."

[...]

Hades: "Explain to me something: How did you do it? I mean the Pact. For all of the conditions it imposed... you still surpassed me. How?"

Zagreus: "Plenty of practice, regular exercise, a positive attitude, the blessings of assorted family members you don't like, and your discarded Titan-slaying weapons I suppose. Nothing special. Why do you ask?"

Hades: "To think that you would squander such a talent on frivolous pursuit. You do not even realize what you have achieved, do you."

Zagreus: "Wait, wait wait wait wait, care to repeat that first part that you said back there? The talent part?"

Hades: "Would that you had a talent for listening. Begone for now."

[...]

Hades: "Wait, you're not the Champion of Elysium...? You're the Bull of Minos! I can't imagine who's even stronger than you. Is it Heracles? Tell me it's Heracles."

Asterius: "I will not. <Snort> You talk too much, short one. Come get destroyed."

[...]

Hades: "How goes your heated rivalry against the greatest king of Athens lately, boy? Your battles with him and the Minotaur must be the talk of the Underworld of late."

Zagreus: "Admit it, Father. Theseus was the only hero you were able to recruit to stand against me. All the while he gets to boast about being the champion. What, was Heracles too busy for the task?"

Hades: "Speak not to me of Heracles. You know these heroes by their deeds, not by their character. Heracles is fortunate he's in my brother's favor. Else he would be in Tartarus where he belongs. The mortal concept of what constitutes a hero is absurd."

Furthermore, Megaera can summoned to assist Zagreus, including against Hades himself, and there are dialogue lines for Hades to react about it so it isn't just unintended game mechanics.

Hades: Megaera, what are you doing here? Hades: Why spring to his assistance, Megaera? Hades: You're surely needed elsewhere, Megaera! Hades: Don't bother to assist him, Megaera! Hades: You're wasting Megaera's valuable time!

Zagreus is also fighting against the Underworld itself, with Tartarus being able to seal the Titans (though they are dismembered with their pieces scattered across Tartarus):

Zagreus: Tartarus... strong enough to seal away the Titans. But not me. [...] Achilles: "Your enemy is not the wretched dead, and not your father, lad. It is the Underworld, itself. It has been fashioned to prevent escape. You must have seen, by now, how all the chambers seem to rearrange themselves." Zagreus: "The Underworld itself, my enemy... I'll do my best anticipating its surprises, sir."

---

Apparently Zagreus can cause an avalanche from a nearby mountain with his voice in one of the outros for a successful run. Looks like Sound Manipulation:

Outro_Avalanche: As he journeys to his mother's cottage in the cold, loudly-speaking Zagreus calls out to hear the echo of his voice, the blast of sound causing a substantive amount of ice and snow to break off from a nearby mountaintop, and fall, and fall, and...

Though the narrator appears to manipulate fate to kill Zagreus through silly means when he reaches the surface, and Zagreus appears to have Fourth Wall awareness about it:

Outro_Ideas: He cannot kill me like this every time, believes the Underworld Prince. He shall eventually have no more ideas. But the Prince, as often is the case, is wrong.

 

[Antvasima]

There seem to be some questions regarding if this character profile page is reliable enough to keep:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/profile-deletion-requests-thread-new-forum.107528/post-5005051

 

[MrKerf]

There seem to be some questions regarding if this character profile page is reliable enough to keep:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/profile-deletion-requests-thread-new-forum.107528/post-5005051

Oh bruuuhhh... I am willing to insert screens and all that, but only if there are no one else. I have like... 4 verses planned. How much time do we have?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you should preferably hurry up, or at least mention in the linked thread that you will handle this relatively soon, if you want to prevent the page's deletion.

 

[MrKerf]

I was hoping to discuss it between verse supporters here before jumping to the task. I'll backup the page though.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

I will unsubscribe from this thread though.

 

[azontr]

Following this.