Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2 (Clover Edition): Mainline Game Scaling

[CloverDragon03]

I think it's kinda disingenuous to say Elio/Selene was "helpless" against the Spearow - they were defending Cosmog, not trying to attack the Spearow, and they were holding up quite well. In fact, Cosmog let out an explosion that caused the Spearow to flee (at least I think it caused them to), and Elio/Selene tanked it at point-blank range

 

[Omegabronic]

You suggest we don't have evidence humans should be durable enough to survive Pokémon but the fact a flock of birds that could individually vaporize an irl human are treated as a problem about as seriously as normal animals in our world.

i never said no human scales, i was talking about how not all human scales, in legends Arceus they are considered a serious problem, sides the modern times have common pokemon trainers, why do you think most games do not allow the player to explore unless he has a pokemon with him?

 

[Omegabronic]

I think it's kinda disingenuous to say Elio/Selene was "helpless" against the Spearow - they were defending Cosmog, not trying to attack the Spearow, and they were holding up quite well. In fact, Cosmog let out an explosion that caused the Spearow to flee (at least I think it caused them to), and Elio/Selene tanked it at point-blank range

helpless as in, they can't just brute force their way out to flee

 

[CloverDragon03]

helpless as in, they can't just brute force their way out to flee

That's a pretty ridiculous way to look at it considering... They were still taking those hits pretty damn well, once again including a Cosmog explosion at point-blank

 

[Omegabronic]

It doesn’t really matter how other humans treat them at the beginning of the game, of course they’re gonna assume a seemingly normal kid is normal.

they never stop treating them that way, never

I’m talking about how high they scale and how quickly they increase in power compared to the rest of the verse. Rei/Akari go from Tier 7 to Tier 6 to Tier 2 to Tier 1 in a pretty short amount of time with no real training, whereas hard working fighters like Bea or the Black Black that tanks a Hyper Beam are shown to cap at Tier 6.

so all examples of humans scaling to pokemon is cases where they are hard working trainers who train themselves? yeah, as i have said earlier, that's the point, and as you said, Akari/Rei have feats that show that they wouldn't scale to other humans at all, and the likes of Bea obviously also wouldn't, i will ask again, do we have a consistent display that shows that Humans scale to Pokemon as you are saying it has? if it is just small moments with only short few chars.......then it wouldn't be what i call consistent

This alone proves that Rei/Akari are unique in the sense that they increase in strength very quickly, regardless of any character’s biased first impression of them is.

so using them as examples as you were is not accurate as they are "special"

Elio/Selene have nothing that suggests they are superior to any regular human, as their one feat isn’t treated as anything impressive from an in-verse scaling standpoint. Lillie doesn’t even acknowledge the Spearow stuff outside of “thanking for helping out”.

Lillie was literally terified without having anything to do against them, by your logic she should be able to do that without them at all

In fact both Lillie and the Galaxy Team behaving as if their respective protagonists are “normal” is a point in favour to me, since that means it’s considered normal for a child with (at least to both their and our knowledge) no reason to be strong to survive a physical confrontation with early route Pokémon.

yet the entire point of the story is that Pokemon are extremely dangerous for humans? as shown with Bea, humans eventually being able to somewhat compete with pokemon is possible, so some humans being able to do that is not out of the park, do you remember how in nearly every game people do not even allow you to get in tall grass because they are afraid of what might happen if a wild pokemon attacks you? weird if you can supposedly tank their attacks with no problem like the examples you gave do

Ummm… I’m only talking about the base average level of humans. I’m not trying to compare Mike Tyson to a 10 year old, I’m trying to compare a 10 year old to a 10 year old. I’m not sure if one or both of us have gotten confused here.

yet one of your examples is a child who tanked attacks from the literal god inverse?.....i don't think i follow

I mean it’s not entirely baseless, we know they’re regular wild Pokémon level at the start but then become Creation level at the end from just exploring. If Rei/Akari had any noticeable amount of training prior to the game, then shouldn’t they be way stronger considering how quickly they grow during the game?

that is assuming that the level they are already is not considered "strong", btw you can also find third stage mons in the first area of legends arceus, so Akari/Rei would scale from 6-C fromt he begining......so yeah, if you want to make all humans the same level as third level mons(since humans can harm eachother) then i guess you could try that, doesn't make much sense to me seem as leser levels would still be a threat

 

[Omegabronic]

That's a pretty ridiculous way to look at it considering... They were still taking those hits pretty damn well, once again including a Cosmog explosion at point-blank

humans are shown to be able to harm other humans in the series......if he scales to them in Dura, they would in AP, and as such they should be able to fight back

my point is not that Elio/Selene doesn't scale in dura, it is that they don't scale to absolutely all humans and that they don't scale to their own dura

 

[Lou_change]

i never said no human scales, i was talking about how not all human scales, in legends Arceus they are considered a serious problem, sides the modern times have common pokemon trainers, why do you think most games do not allow the player to explore unless he has a pokemon with him?

I mean bears, wolves, and boars were considered dangerous in our world. I would argue it is portrayed more similarly to the danger of a wild animals I mean they're stronger than humans but it's not as if people run away in terror if someone sends a Yanma out of their pokeball. Besides bewear's pokedex entry and maybe others I forgot most pokedex entries that mention pokemon killing people don't imply they use of brute force and bewear's backbreaking is likely reliant on pressure which technically different from the norm. It's not outright stated Pokémon aren't able to easily kill humans that is still probably the case for several strong species of Pokémon, but a level 5 ratatta is seemingly more a nuisance than anything.

I think it is possible we should consider the average level difference of Pokémon given I doubt that people are using the strongest members of a species as the benchmark for their tests and more pokemon are considered strong for breaking bolders than mountains

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

but a level 5 ratatta is seemingly more a nuisance than anything.

If that's the case then not letting kids go out in the grass when it has nothing but weak Pidgey's and Rattata seems a little excessive.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

so all examples of humans scaling to pokemon is cases where they are hard working trainers who train themselves? yeah, as i have said earlier, that's the point, and as you said, Akari/Rei have feats that show that they wouldn't scale to other humans at all, and the likes of Bea obviously also wouldn't, i will ask again, do we have a consistent display that shows that Humans scale to Pokemon as you are saying it has? if it is just small moments with only short few chars.......then it wouldn't be what i call consistent

There is no reason to assume that Elio/Selene, a normal kid with zero evidence of training or having superhuman genetics or anything like that, is millions of times stronger than a normal human in the verse. Bea, Black Belts and the like have gone through extensive explicit training and Rei/Akari have some ridiculous Accelerated Development, Elio/Selene on the other hand have no given reason to be more durable than average. Not to mention said fighters have consistently fully-evolved scaling while the normal 11 year old only has early route bird scaling.

Lillie was literally terified without having anything to do against them, by your logic she should be able to do that without them at all

???? Are you saying that an 11 year old girl with an extremely troubled life watching her companion get bullied by wild birds on a creaking bridge shouldn’t be scared? Hell a lot of people become terrified from much less (cough cough spiders).

yet the entire point of the story is that Pokemon are extremely dangerous for humans? as shown with Bea, humans eventually being able to somewhat compete with pokemon is possible, so some humans being able to do that is not out of the park, do you remember how in nearly every game people do not even allow you to get in tall grass because they are afraid of what might happen if a wild pokemon attacks you? weird if you can supposedly tank their attacks with no problem like the examples you gave do

Again, there’s a huge difference between “this wild animal could cause heavy damage if it roughs you up enough” and “this wild animal would literally turn you into bloody paste if it so much as rams into you”. Why are you assuming the latter when everyone’s worries could just as easily be the former, especially when you compare things to the real world?

yet one of your examples is a child who tanked attacks from the literal god inverse?.....i don't think i follow

I’m trying to say that even with their crazy potential and potentially above average strength at the start, they’re still Low 7-B just like the completely normal human that is the Alola protag. Elio/Selene have zero reason to be “superhuman” and beginning of game Rei/Akari could go either way, yet both of then are Low 7-B at the start. This shows that both a seemingly completely normal human and a maybe above average human are both Low 7-B, meaning either both are above average or neither of them are. Since Elio/Selene have zero reason to be and Rei/Akari have no real evidence in favour of either side (assuming I’m not wrong about the entry trial thing in the next point), on top of nobody treating either of their level of durability as abnormal, the more logical assumption is that Low 7-B is a normal level of durability for a human. This is especially so when compared to the real world, as the early route Pokémon like Spearow and Starly are treated much like their real-life counterparts when it comes to the harm they can inflict on humans.

that is assuming that the level they are already is not considered "strong", btw you can also find third stage mons in the first area of legends arceus, so Akari/Rei would scale from 6-C fromt he begining......so yeah, if you want to make all humans the same level as third level mons(since humans can harm eachother) then i guess you could try that, doesn't make much sense to me seem as leser levels would still be a threat

From what I can remember you can only encounter third stage mons after the entry trial, where you’re limited to the starting area with only early route Pokémon.

It would be pretty embarrassing on my end if I’m wrong, but even if I was it hopefully wouldn’t matter since as we’ve established Rei/Akari’s crazy potential could mean they are possibly above average at the start as well. My main argument is just that Elio/Selene are normal as there’s zero reason or evidence to believe the contrary, and the beginning of game Rei/Akari stuff was just to try and support it further. Though now I fear I’ve made things woefully overcomplicated.

 

[SlendVeny]

If that's the case then not letting kids go out in the grass when it has nothing but weak Pidgey's and Rattata seems a little excessive.

Children are stupid, they're basically going "hey, my kid is just rushing toward that flock of geese, that's probably bad."

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

bump

 

[CloverDragon03]

humans are shown to be able to harm other humans in the series......if he scales to them in Dura, they would in AP, and as such they should be able to fight back

my point is not that Elio/Selene doesn't scale in dura, it is that they don't scale to absolutely all humans and that they don't scale to their own dura

Since we're bringing this back, I'd like to ask if there's any reason for Elio/Selene to not be an average human

 

[Omegabronic]

Since we're bringing this back, I'd like to ask if there's any reason for Elio/Selene to not be an average human

doesn't the humans of Legends Arceus consider Pokemon way too dangerous to even approach or something? i remember a statement like that

 

[Imaginym]

Since we're bringing this back, I'd like to ask if there's any reason for Elio/Selene to not be an average human

Unless, it's the riding gear, I guess they arguably have a feat of surviving being on Tauros when it smashes rocks on the field?

 

[y3p_owo]

Bump

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Bump.

 

[Imaginym]

What are the current matters of contention?

 

[y3p_owo]

What are the current matters of contention?

I think this is on hold due to another Pokémon thread going on that's against splitting the canon

 

[Jinx666]

Hi, i cant seem to find anywhere more suitable but like...

Whats actually going on with Pokemon on this wiki now?

Are fully-evolved pokemon considered 6-C or High 7-A?

Are the profiles named after the final forms, or the pre-evolved forms? (Kinda feels like we need to pick one?)

Do split evolutions really have to share profiles with eachother? Kinda feels like Pokemon like Gallade and Gardevoir should be separated

 

[henryzx900ruly]

i agree. btw would the canon split affect the god tiers?

 

[y3p_owo]

Not really

 

[Imaginym]

Hi, i cant seem to find anywhere more suitable but like...

Whats actually going on with Pokemon on this wiki now?

Good question.

I'd blame part of it on inactivity. (People making revisions & either neglecting them, or not getting the Staff Input Wiki policy requires to apply revisions.)

Are fully-evolved pokemon considered 6-C or High 7-A?

AFAIK, depends on who they scale to, if they have Megas & stuff.
But we may need to clear that up.

Are the profiles named after the final forms, or the pre-evolved forms? (Kinda feels like we need to pick one?)

I'm an advocate of base form first, as:

1. That's what other 'verses often do. Naming after the base form, not the final form. Seems like a reasonable global standards. You can just put redirects to the names of the final forms, so their tabber shows when someone looks up that stage's name.
2. Some lines have multiple evolutions, & those evolutions are often in the same generation, don't warrant having separate profiles, & are of similar power; How would you decide which to name the profile for?

Do split evolutions really have to share profiles with eachother? Kinda feels like Pokemon like Gallade and Gardevoir should be separated

That's probably for the better. They share Egg Moves & pre-evolutions, & if any feats or abilities are from the pre-evolutions (Like stuff from Pokedex entries), then having them in the same profile makes it easier rather than requiring new visitors to check a new page. Same profile means you can just do a tabber with "Same as before" or such.
It could also mean using a bunch of extra space, because then all the pre-evolution stuff has to go on AT LEAST ONE, if not ALL of the fully evoled form profiles. When, if you kept the fully evolved forms on the same profile, you only have to have the details there.

Yes, you could just put a "Same as [PRE-EVOLUTIONNAMEGOESHERE] thing" & exclude the pre-evolution info from one of the fully evolved form choices, but then you're requiring visitors to check multiple profiles to get all the info on one stage.
& once again, in that case, how would you choose which gets the pre-evolution info put on it?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Fully evolved game mons are 6-C from Abomasnow's calc, to clear up any confusion. Other media have them at High 7-A via Tyranitar's Dex entry, since the 6-C feat is only performed in the XY games

 

[Imaginym]

Fully evolved game mons are 6-C from Abomasnow's calc, to clear up any confusion. Other media have them at High 7-A via Tyranitar's Dex entry, since the 6-C feat is only performed in the XY games

Isn't it Mega Abomasnow specifically?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Isn't it Mega Abomasnow specifically?

It never Mega Evolved, no. When you get to it it's in base form

 

[Jinx666]

I'm an advocate of base form first, as:

1. That's what other 'verses often do. Naming after the base form, not the final form. Seems like a reasonable global standards. You can just put redirects to the names of the final forms, so their tabber shows when someone looks up that stage's name.
2. Some lines have multiple evolutions, & those evolutions are often in the same generation, don't warrant having separate profiles, & are of similar power; How would you decide which to name the profile for?

Honestly though, who exactly wants to use the base/2nd stage forms though? In exception to mons like Pikachu, Eevee and Jigglypuff i guess, but I feel the power levels of lesser Pokemon are just kinda irrelevant compared to using the Pokemon at its strongest.

I know theres a lot of spam matchups like 'Caterpie vs w/e' but lowkey dk if we need to mandatory give a tiering to random Pre-evos anymore

That's probably for the better. They share Egg Moves & pre-evolutions, & if any feats or abilities are from the pre-evolutions (Like stuff from Pokedex entries), then having them in the same profile makes it easier rather than requiring new visitors to check a new page. Same profile means you can just do a tabber with "Same as before" or such.
It could also mean using a bunch of extra space, because then all the pre-evolution stuff has to go on AT LEAST ONE, if not ALL of the fully evoled form profiles. When, if you kept the fully evolved forms on the same profile, you only have to have the details there.

Same thing as above about the base forms, but should egg moves even be included? Given the profiles of the mons are based on the species as a whole (and egg moves are an unnatural choice made by players and trainers, with exception of rare cases in the wild like ORAS ig?), i thought we only use their level-up moves and put a note saying this. If not, we definitely should unless its for a named Pokemon trainer's mon.

Idk if for that reason we should exclude Gardevoir and Gallade for example, not having separate profiles, because they most definitely have different attributes, different mega forms, different typings, abilities etc. I know theres loads of Pokemon profiles that just aren't up to scratch, and tons that need updating for Paldea and even Legends Arceus but otherwise they seem different enough.

Yes, you could just put a "Same as [PRE-EVOLUTIONNAMEGOESHERE] thing" & exclude the pre-evolution info from one of the fully evolved form choices, but then you're requiring visitors to check multiple profiles to get all the info on one stage.
& once again, in that case, how would you choose which gets the pre-evolution info put on it?

Unless Pre-evolution info is relevant, like in level-up movesets or pokedex entry upscaling, idk if its necessary anymore tbh.

 

[Imaginym]

Honestly though, who exactly wants to use the base/2nd stage forms though? In exception to mons like Pikachu, Eevee and Jigglypuff i guess, but I feel the power levels of lesser Pokemon are just kinda irrelevant compared to using the Pokemon at its strongest.

I know theres a lot of spam matchups like 'Caterpie vs w/e' but lowkey dk if we need to mandatory give a tiering to base forms

We are an indexing site. It would be negligent to not index them, & disingenuous if we took into account their feats for their final forms, but did not index the lower forms themselves.

& some people do like using the fruits of this hobby for matchmaking, which is also recreational. That is a valid thing to do.

Not to mention cases where a Pokemon may differ in its final form in typing, behaviour, etc.

& which is strongest is NOT the most important thing. The primary focus is that we are thorough & accurate in our indexing.
I'd dare call dismissing a Pokemon species as not mattering just because it's not fully evolved as lazy, upgrade-chasing, or only interested in ensuring matchup loss avoidance.

The differences in statistics aren't even the only differences, since behaviours often differ, & some higher stages could be argued to have worse behaviour/tactics, for example. Or better. They differ notably, & that matters.
Also the differences in Abilities - Some pre-evolutions have Abilities their evolved forms don't.

Same thing as above about the base forms, but should egg moves even be included? Given the profiles of the mons are based on the species as a whole (and egg moves are an unnatural choice made by players and trainers, with exception of rare cases in the wild like ORAS ig?), i thought we only use their level-up moves and put a note saying this. If not, we definitely should unless its for a named Pokemon trainer's mon.

OR/AS demonstrates Egg Moves can be obtained by ordinary Wild Pokemon. I'm not sure, but there probably is more evidence. Possibly the Mirror Herb.
Also, Egg Moves are not entirely a choice, just a product of what moves the parent Pokemon have; It's very possible a trainer could unintentionally pair two Pokemon & the resulting hatched Pokemon would have 1 or more Egg Move(s) because of movesets they didn't check.

Since Pokemon are species profiles, it's very possible for the cases where a Wild Pokemon has Egg Moves to come up.

To not index comprehensively is negligent.

Idk if for that reason we should exclude Gardevoir and Gallade for example, not having separate profiles, because they most definitely have different attributes, different mega forms, different typings, abilities etc.

& yet they get a ton of their movepool, EVEN USING ONLY LEVEL-UP MOVES, from their pre-evolutions, as well as several feats & P/A.
They both have a primary typing (Psychic) in common, both got their Megas in Gen 6....

They are too similar to not share a profile, especially when it would necessitates repeating information that could be kept on 1 profile.

I know theres loads of Pokemon profiles that just aren't up to scratch, and tons that need updating for Paldea and even Legends Arceus but otherwise they seem different enough.

I agree with you that lots of profiles that need updating. (I semi-recently participated in checking several Sandbox profiles in a Pokemon CRT for accuracy, & am waiting for that thread to progress, & have done such before.)
However, CRT-per-verse limits & lack of Staff Input have delayed that.

But I would have Gardevoir & Gallade on the same profile for future-proofing & audience convenience.

They can be formatted & spellchecked just fine, but they'll still have shared level-up moves, pre-evolution feats & P&A, possible scaling to each other, & probably other stuff.
Different appearances can be handled by tabbers, & we've done such before for Pokemon with multiple forms.
Having different moves between final evolutionary stages can also be handled by tabbers.
Having behaviour that differs between final evolutionary stages is as expected for any Pokemon. As is having different Abilities. (Like Synchronize vs Sharpness.)
& other than Psychic/Fairy vs Psychic/Fighting, they are the same type.
They are not the only evolutionary line to have gendered evolutions.

I think they have too much in common to justify repeating a bunch of information on one profile & forcing viewers to check two profiles for one Pokemon that's been separated from its evolution line.

Unless Pre-evolution info is relevant, like in level-up movesets or pokedex entry upscaling, idk if its necessary anymore tbh.

Pre-evolution Pokedex entries often serve to add powers & abilities, inform behaviour & provide feats.
Many Pokemon have moves or abilities exclusive to their pre-evolutions.

In cases where the P&A are very similar, higher stages can just use "Same as before", & such, so they don't have to repeat a list of P&A, because it's on the same page, just in a different tabber.
If they don't differ very much, then that just means fewer differences to clarify.

Not to mention pre-evolutions often battling differently due to behaviour.

& indexing as a whole isn't strictly necessary, it's a hobby.

Not to mention it just looks bad to not do the full line.
"Why did you only do the final stage?"
"Where's X, I wanna do a match with it!"

& once again, if you want to go into the search bar & make, say typing "Gardevoir" go to "Gardevoir" or "Mega Gallade" go to "Mega Gallade", redirects can be used for that.

 

[Jinx666]

Too much

I mean we can definitely index that they are lesser forms, but when a pokemon evolves, it's said to be a different species entirely (at least according to bulbapedia) and can have differences in multiple attributes similar as such.

Idk what you mean by this but idk whose clammering to use the lesser evolved form unless its super specific or a fan-favourite like Pikachu.

Yeah, theyre counted as different species and have separate dex entries

Didnt say it was, its not like we have much official singular feats for each Pokemon and merely scale them off huge feats in 1 single Pokedex entry... which is fine, but doesnt feel entirely accurate. Especially this Abomasnow feat, which i feel fits more into Environmental Destruction types of AP for creating a blizzard since thats its natural ability.

Yeah so...feels like more ground to give any of these pre-evolutions their own profile than anything.

Too much

ORAS is kinda the only case, and even then thats some huge retelling of the original but idk the Pokemon timeline

Adding every Egg move just for the possibility that a few members of the species cna learn it sounds more for individual Pokemon cases tbh. As much as it gives them all extra power, I dont think Egg moves should be a necessary section in regards to Species.

Idk what you mean exactly but we cant give a Species profile absolutely every unique move it could have anyway

Too much

Just because there are similarities does not mean theyre not completely different classes of Pokemon with huge differences between themself that would opt for separate profiles. They aren't 'too similar' in the slightest

Theres repeating information on every Pokemon profile...I dont see why keeping two separate Pokemon in one tier category is exactly bound-breaking, or why its even bad to have repeating factors

Too much

Pretty sure audience would rather their favourite mons be represented in a separate profile than having to share just because theyre split evo forms...Its not exactly an inconvenience to give separate Pokemon separate profiles, if anything its easier for them to look at one profile for one character than like, 4 different ones at a time.

They are completely separate Pokemon (Like you are literally listing a ton of differences they have), they just share pre-evolutions. I dont know why you see it as forcing viewers when this wiki has No Verse-size limit AND Pokemon Species all having their own separate profile and similar scalings anway.

Too much

Yeah, and thus their final forms scale above unless theres some huge metamorphosis change

All these points about differences could easily be justified into the argument of giving separate profiles. Not that I want separate profiles for each pokemon pre-evolution (unnecessary), but I dont see why very clearly separate Pokemon with different identities have to be grouped together in 1 profile, meanwhile mons like Throh and Sawk get their own separate profiles lol. Like a Gallade and Gardevoir are very different, and branched evolutions are symbolistic of actual evolution into different species entirely from one common ancestor.

Idk why you're talking about this being a hobby, i didn't say anything against that in the slightest.

I don't think it looks bad, or anyone cares that you missed Darumaka from Darmanitan. Like it doesnt hurt to put on the profile but atp it just saves more lazy sentences like 'comparable to other first-stage evolutions' (cause not every pokemon can physically create earthquakes like a diglett or smthn, this is a very weird verse to scale) for tabs that just, will never be used regardless.

Yh disambigs are cool but like, Idk, seems really disingenuous to not give separate profiles to clearly different branched evolutions entirely. And that fact that leads to the profile being named after the weak first stage pokemon instead of the fully evolved mon people are Actually wanting to look into the powers of.

 

[Lou_change]

Species profiles usually consider different life stages and more specialized variations of the species.

Rules for naming profiles are nonexistent beyond them having to be use a name belonging to what is indexed on the profile

 

[Jinx666]

Species profiles usually consider different life stages and more specialized variations of the species.

Rules for naming profiles are nonexistent beyond them having to be use a name belonging to what is indexed on the profile

They do, but either way Pokemon are considered individual species separately. It's not like a Pokemon's evolution correlates to its age either.

Yeah but it'd be great if we could all agree on which names to use rather than a messy mix of Pre-evos and Final evos

 

[Lou_change]

Technically yeah but, Pokémon's taxonomy logic is weird they give birth to different species by that logic. I think it is more reasonable to bunch them all together.

 

[Jinx666]

Or we don't really need to include Pre-Evos as a necessity to the page (when Pokemon scaling is shaky af to begin with), and we don't have to put Pokemon with unique attributes and differences like Gardevoir and Gallade into one profile

Heck, Glalie and Froslass get separate pages without needing to mention Snorunt (Literally WHO is scaling Snorunt?) so idk why we cant make them separate profiles

 

[y3p_owo]

Heck, Glalie and Froslass get separate pages without needing to mention Snorunt (Literally WHO is scaling Snorunt?) so idk why we cant make them separate profiles

Hey, you put some respect on Snorunt's name

 

[Jinx666]

K but fr though

 

[Imaginym]

Idk what you mean by this but idk whose clammering to use the lesser evolved form unless its super specific or a fan-favourite like Pikachu.

People who want specific Pokemon, but which fit into specific tierings. Useful for tournaments.

Yeah, theyre counted as different species and have separate dex entries

Separate species but often some of those species will have been other species previously, which affects experience, among other things.

Didnt say it was, its not like we have much official singular feats for each Pokemon and merely scale them off huge feats in 1 single Pokedex entry... which is fine, but doesnt feel entirely accurate. Especially this Abomasnow feat, which i feel fits more into Environmental Destruction types of AP for creating a blizzard since thats its natural ability.

Neutral on this. Being considerate of how many feats at what level we have is important, IMHO.

Yeah so...feels like more ground to give any of these pre-evolutions their own profile than anything.

No.
It would be wasteful to repeat a bunch of info that the higher stages are also going to have.
It would be tedious for viewers to have to go to multiple pages to check a single evolutionary line.
& it would be shamefully negligent to index only 1 or 2 or a few specific members of an evolutionary line.

& the capabilities & behaviour of the evolutionary line members often inform one another; Checking what 1 might do can help infer what the other might do.
Feats are shared, etc.
Not to mention often nearly half or more of a final stage's level-up movepool AND its whole Egg Move movepool will be shared with its pre-evolutions.

IDK why you're so deadset on splitting evolutionary stages, but I am wholely opposed.

As I see it, it takes up space with extra text & extra pages by splitting blatantly connected evolutionary lines because of moderate differences, when even in most cases, the split evolutions will often share huge portions of typing, movepool, feats & abilities.

ORAS is kinda the only case, and even then thats some huge retelling of the original but idk the Pokemon timeline

GameFreak abandons numerous game elements, that doesn't mean they aren't canon.
& little suggests that trainer-bred Pokemon are created differently.

Daycare: In EVERY GENERATION they say they have no idea how the Egg got there, whether the worker is elderly or young, & whether the player character is as young as in G/S/C or as old as in B/W or X/Y.
& in S/V, Eggs are acquired through picnics with the player doing practically nothing.

"According to a girl in Solaceon Town, where one of many Pokémon Day Cares are located, no one has ever seen a Pokémon lay an Egg, and thus, it is not confirmed that this is how they appear. According to Professor Elm, as quoted by a man in Hearthome City, and a Monsieur in Coumarine City, Eggs are not actually eggs and are more like "cradles".".

Which is to say whether Pokemon do or don't lay Eggs, & thus, have Egg Moves in the wild is an uncertainty.
& keep in mind, Elm is the Professor who SPECIALIZES in studying Pokemon Eggs.

Not to mention, in ANY Johto game, check in his residence (His home, not his lab, in New Bark Town.), & you can find this:

POKEMON. Where do they come from? Where are they going? Why has
no one ever witnessed a POKEMON's birth? I want to know! I will
dedicate my life to the study of POKEMON!

... It's a part of PROF.ELM's research papers.

It is in Gold, Silver, Crystal, HG/SS.
& there's no reason Elm would be mincing words there. He's not talking to the player character, it's his own research papers in the privacy of his own home!

Nobody has EVER seen a Pokemon's birth, & this is backed up by the people who watch Pokemon where the Eggs show up only "finding" them (That's the wording.) & invariably being at a loss for explanation as to how the Egg got there.

So it's quite possible Wild Pokemon produce Eggs, & thus, Egg moves as well.

& in fact, fact-checking, OR/AS ISN'T the only circumstance!

Egg Move

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

• In Pokémon Sun, Moon, Ultra Sun, and Ultra Moon, Pokémon obtained via Island Scan will know a specific Egg Move (unless they have none).
• In Pokémon Sword and Shield, Brilliant Pokémon will know a random Egg Move.
• In Pokémon Brilliant Diamond and Shining Pearl, Pokémon found in Pokémon Hideaways may know a random Egg Move, excluding the moves that the Pokémon also learn via level-up.
• In Pokémon Scarlet and Violet, some Pokémon encountered in Tera Raid Battles and wild Terastallized Pokémon will know Egg moves.

That's Wild Egg Moves possible in Gen 6, 7, 8 & 9!
& even if it is uncommon, they are species, not individuals, so it's not like the Pokemon featured in matches are going to have a strict origin that locks them to 1 region.

MAYBE you could argue they should be P&A that can be restricted in matches or such since not all wild Pokemon -Even though many can- will have them?

Adding every Egg move just for the possibility that a few members of the species cna learn it sounds more for individual Pokemon cases tbh. As much as it gives them all extra power, I dont think Egg moves should be a necessary section in regards to Species.

See above.

Also, we document even bit feats, & the vast majority of Pokemon profiled are not individuals.
It may be more work, but that doesn't mean we should just leave out info on possible factors.

I would say the same of any kind of weaknesses that come up. We don't exclude those either, because we are an indexing site first.

Idk what you mean exactly but we cant give a Species profile absolutely every unique move it could have anyway

We document the moves the species can naturally learn. I don't see the issue.

Just because there are similarities does not mean theyre not completely different classes of Pokemon with huge differences between themself that would opt for separate profiles. They aren't 'too similar' in the slightest

Other characters & monsters can have huge gaps in statistics & differences in P&A. We separate them with keys & tabbers.

Not to mention mid-battle evolution is a thing in a lot of media, Pokemon included.

Separating evolutionary lines just complicates the reading & documentation.

Theres repeating information on every Pokemon profile...I dont see why keeping two separate Pokemon in one tier category is exactly bound-breaking, or why its even bad to have repeating factors

Then that repeating information needs to be cleaned up.
& don't say it's the pre-evolution moves or feats. We have "Same as before" & whatnot for that.

If you want to separate Pokemon like Gardevoir & Gallade, I say it should be done with redirects, tabbers & keys, so that we don't have to separate from the things that literally turn into the form they are, & provide much of their experience, P&A.

Pretty sure audience would rather their favourite mons be represented in a separate profile than having to share just because theyre split evo forms...Its not exactly an inconvenience to give separate Pokemon separate profiles, if anything its easier for them to look at one profile for one character than like, 4 different ones at a time.

I would say audiences wouldn't have to check 2 pages to check 1 evolutionary line.
Heck, if you separate them, what if audience members don't know one of the alternate pages doesn't exist & gets upset?

They are completely separate Pokemon (Like you are literally listing a ton of differences they have), they just share pre-evolutions. I dont know why you see it as forcing viewers when this wiki has No Verse-size limit AND Pokemon Species all having their own separate profile and similar scalings anway.

Mate.

Both are Psychic type.
Both share Egg-moves.
Both share tons of Level-Up moves.
They share tons of Powers & Abilities, scaling & feats.
Both share an Evolutionary line.
Their statistics would be close to identical.

I seriously don't think we should create a 2nd page & thus cause disorganization & mild page/text bloat just because the 2 final evolutions are kind of popular.
If they're notable, a redirect should suffice.

Yeah, and thus their final forms scale above unless theres some huge metamorphosis change

Obviously. That's how final forms work, but that doesn't mean we separate them. We have profiles that jump multiple tiers between keys.

All these points about differences could easily be justified into the argument of giving separate profiles. Not that I want separate profiles for each pokemon pre-evolution (unnecessary), but I dont see why very clearly separate Pokemon with different identities have to be grouped together in 1 profile,

Because they have a ton of abilities from the same sources (The level-up movepools & P&A), the same or near-identical typing, & it being intuitive.
If someone looks up their starter, & then looks for its final form or realizes "Dang this is too high tier for the match/tournament I wanna do" they then have to go & check more pages for the other evolutionary stages.
Or they wanna check a justification for a feat or a "same as before" & they have to go to a different page.

& you say you don't want separate profiles for each Pokemon pre-evolution, but that's hardly any better because you're proposing separating the final forms.

meanwhile mons like Throh and Sawk get their own separate profiles lol.

On this I agree. It could be argued the case of them (Or better yet, Volbeat & Illumise.) could be one where they're put into the same profile with redirects.
But as for why they're separate, they have no evolutionary connection, their entries don't mention each other, & while they have similar TM/TR learnsets, their only shared Level-Up moves are Leer, Focus Energy, Bulk Up, Endure & Reversal. 5 out of 13. & not even very uncommon moves among Fighting-type.

Not to mention, they use entirely different Fighting styles. Sawk is the Karate Pokemon, which is more about strikes, & Throh is the Judo Pokemon, which is more about throws.

We could argue they should share a profile, but I'd rather do it in its own thread, since this is a busy one with its own topics as is.

Like a Gallade and Gardevoir are very different, and branched evolutions are symbolistic of actual evolution into different species entirely from one common ancestor.

I believe branched evolution is symbolized by regional forms.

But as mentioned, Gallade & Gardevoir have a typing in common, are born & evolve from the same things (Even if different evolutionary histories caused Gallade & Gardevoir to originate, no matter how many of either of them you checked, they still evolve from the same species.), & share many of the same feats, powers & abilities & scaling.

The main differences, besides gender, are 1 type (Versus 1 type in common.), maybe half their movepool, if that (Versus half their movepool in common.), & moderately different but still clearly similar appearances, as well as a couple of Pokedex entries the other lacks.
I don't think it's enough to split their profile, & with it, complicate explaining their stuff.

Idk why you're talking about this being a hobby, i didn't say anything against that in the slightest.

Because you said:

Honestly though, who exactly wants to use the base/2nd stage forms though? In exception to mons like Pikachu, Eevee and Jigglypuff i guess, but I feel the power levels of lesser Pokemon are just kinda irrelevant compared to using the Pokemon at its strongest.

I know theres a lot of spam matchups like 'Caterpie vs w/e' but lowkey dk if we need to mandatory give a tiering to random Pre-evos anymore

My point was none of what we do is mandatory. It is recreational.
It's all done as a hobby. But we still have standards & policy, because we want to provide good information in a neat & organized way, & we shouldn't neglect certain info just because some people don't care about it.
The info should be there so it is conveniently accessible & accurate.

I don't think it looks bad, or anyone cares that you missed Darumaka from Darmanitan. Like it doesnt hurt to put on the profile but atp it just saves more lazy sentences like 'comparable to other first-stage evolutions' (cause not every pokemon can physically create earthquakes like a diglett or smthn, this is a very weird verse to scale) for tabs that just, will never be used regardless.

I have seen & participated in multiple matches over the years that used lower evolutionary stages.
& often they will be more than just "comparable to X", since again, often distinct movepools, P&A & behaviour. Not to mention there's been revisions waiting that others started about wanting to establish that they all scale to the scaling points equally.

Speaking as someone who's actually seen & debated in matches featuring Pokemon that aren't the final form, "Tabs that are never used regardless" is just lies.

Yh disambigs are cool but like, Idk, seems really disingenuous to not give separate profiles to clearly different branched evolutions entirely. And that fact that leads to the profile being named after the weak first stage pokemon instead of the fully evolved mon people are Actually wanting to look into the powers of.

My issue is that Pokemon like Gardevoir & Gallade aren't different enough, when they have a whole evolutionary line of feats, statements, half their typing, most of their appearance, their egg moves & at least half their level-up movepool in common, plus basically the same scaling points.

Plus, separating them into different profiles would just make writing their scaling & P&A justification clunkier, & make it more confusing for visitors to find all the members of the line.

If they didn't share an evolutionary line or so much of their movepools or their lines' Pokedex entries, then they'd probably seem different enough, is my opinion, but you can't just ignore the rest of their evolutionary line when our site's whole point is literally to index.

 

[Jinx666]

Sorry, i will reply to ALL of that (Can we stop this long ass posting before it wastes time istg)

But you're making up so many non-issues here its crazy. How you can spam huge text posts for something this minor is insane

 

[Lou_change]

Or we don't really need to include Pre-Evos as a necessity to the page (when Pokemon scaling is shaky af to begin with)

Okay we also don't really need to include evolutions on profiles either and the part where scaling gets shaky is trying to define 2 or 1 stage Pokémon on the 3 stage system we generally use.

we don't have to put Pokemon with unique attributes and differences like Gardevoir and Gallade into one profile

We have stuff like this why make it more complicated by making us have to write most of the same stuff twice

 

[Jinx666]

People who want specific Pokemon, but which fit into specific tierings. Useful for tournaments.

The tournaments are so unserious fr

Separate species but often some of those species will have been other species previously, which affects experience, among other things.

Theres no given difference between a pre-evo and a final form's experience in species since theres nothing to quantify, other than 'should be more experienced', so not an important factor

No.
It would be wasteful to repeat a bunch of info that the higher stages are also going to have.
It would be tedious for viewers to have to go to multiple pages to check a single evolutionary line.
& it would be shamefully negligent to index only 1 or 2 or a few specific members of an evolutionary line.

-Different Species, Different Pokemon
-No it wouldnt. This is not a chore, and people aren't required to tune into both Gardevoir AND Gallade if they want to use them.
-No it wouldnt lol. The Pokemon's final forms for like, 95% of the Pokedex are what is cared about.

& the capabilities & behaviour of the evolutionary line members often inform one another; Checking what 1 might do can help infer what the other might do.
Feats are shared, etc.
Not to mention often nearly half or more of a final stage's level-up movepool AND its whole Egg Move movepool will be shared with its pre-evolutions

IDK why you're so deadset on splitting evolutionary stages, but I am wholely opposed.

As I see it, it takes up space with extra text & extra pages by splitting blatantly connected evolutionary lines because of moderate differences, when even in most cases, the split evolutions will often share huge portions of typing, movepool, feats & abilities

Because split evolutionary stages are DIFFERENT POKEMON
Gallade and Gardevoir are different Pokemon. And you think the most important thing is their pre-evos?

You're actively cucking them, and making up random non-factors that no one gives af about. The Ralts page literally has Gardevoir and Gallade SHARE a Key lol

They're cool mons that deserve their own stuff instead of trying to act as if Ralts and Kirlia are their coolest features.

you write too much

Regardless of special cases that are due to additional factors (Tera Raid Battles, Island Scans etc.) They're still Individuals with a special factor, such as an additional egg parent that doesn't account for what they generally learn naturally.

see above

Seems better to stick to the Average than trying to account for every special exception when it comes to a species profile, since Egg moves found in the wild are obv of special circumstance

We document the moves the species can naturally learn. I don't see the issue.

They anturally learn level-up moves, Egg moves are literally the equivalent of selective-breeding features

Other characters & monsters can have huge gaps in statistics & differences in P&A. We separate them with keys & tabbers.

Not to mention mid-battle evolution is a thing in a lot of media, Pokemon included.

Separating evolutionary lines just complicates the reading & documentation.

You've REALLY gotta reach for anything here lol

mid-battle evolution??? You genuinely think thats ever gonna naturally be allowed to come up in a hypothetical debate scenario?

Then that repeating information needs to be cleaned up.
& don't say it's the pre-evolution moves or feats. We have "Same as before" & whatnot for that.

If you want to separate Pokemon like Gardevoir & Gallade, I say it should be done with redirects, tabbers & keys, so that we don't have to separate from the things that literally turn into the form they are, & provide much of their experience, P&A.

Well no, because Gallade and Gardevoir are different enough that they are fine candidates for separare profiles??

Sorry but you're just super close-minded here, and bringing up things that would NOT be an issue regardless. If anything, it'd be easier to find these mons if they were separated instead of trying to look at the info of two separate profiles in one wiki.

I can literally do it myself to prove its not an issue lol

I would say audiences wouldn't have to check 2 pages to check 1 evolutionary line.
Heck, if you separate them, what if audience members don't know one of the alternate pages doesn't exist & gets upset?

You cant be srs

Mate.

Both are Psychic type.
Both share Egg-moves.
Both share tons of Level-Up moves.
They share tons of Powers & Abilities, scaling & feats.
Both share an Evolutionary line.
Their statistics would be close to identical.

I seriously don't think we should create a 2nd page & thus cause disorganization & mild page/text bloat just because the 2 final evolutions are kind of popular.
If they're notable, a redirect should suffice.

You arent serious...
You really think this means they cant get separate pages? They are literal counterparts
You think being part psychic (despite both gaining unique types, P&A and Mega Evolution forms) is enough to keep them in one profile????

Obviously. That's how final forms work, but that doesn't mean we separate them. We have profiles that jump multiple tiers between keys.

They're different Pokemon. This wiki documents Pokemon awfully enough, Its weird we're acting like theres a finite space on this wiki that both cant exist. You are literally making up scenarios and issues NO ONE will conceive or have

Because they have a ton of abilities from the same sources (The level-up movepools & P&A), the same or near-identical typing, & it being intuitive.
If someone looks up their starter, & then looks for its final form or realizes "Dang this is too high tier for the match/tournament I wanna do" they then have to go & check more pages for the other evolutionary stages.
Or they wanna check a justification for a feat or a "same as before" & they have to go to a different page.

No they dont, This isnt a thing, People arent clamoring to use a freaking Nuzleaf in a vs matchup

& you say you don't want separate profiles for each Pokemon pre-evolution, but that's hardly any better because you're proposing separating the final forms.

Split-Evolutions that make unique pokemon? Yeah. I don't want a profile for every individual pre-evolution. No one gives a toss about that. If something is upset that their Azurill is missing a page on the wiki, then they can make it fr

On this I agree. It could be argued the case of them (Or better yet, Volbeat & Illumise.) could be one where they're put into the same profile with redirects.
But as for why they're separate, they have no evolutionary connection, their entries don't mention each other, & while they have similar TM/TR learnsets, their only shared Level-Up moves are Leer, Focus Energy, Bulk Up, Endure & Reversal. 5 out of 13. & not even very uncommon moves among Fighting-type.

K but they're still separate Pokemon, and im not proposing we change that. You cant put these dudes in one page, but theyre far more similar to eachother than Gallade and Gardevoir are lmao
You realise theres not finite space on this wiki right?

Not to mention, they use entirely different Fighting styles. Sawk is the Karate Pokemon, which is more about strikes, & Throh is the Judo Pokemon, which is more about throws.

Wow. Yet Gardevoir and Gallade are practically the same!

We could argue they should share a profile, but I'd rather do it in its own thread, since this is a busy one with its own topics as is.

Yeah idk why you've wrote this much. Pokemon on this wiki is never getting fixed, idk who has the time for something this minor. I juzt didnt think people would have a problem giving separate Pokemon, their separate profile

I believe branched evolution is symbolized by regional forms.

But as mentioned, Gallade & Gardevoir have a typing in common, are born & evolve from the same things (Even if different evolutionary histories caused Gallade & Gardevoir to originate, no matter how many of either of them you checked, they still evolve from the same species.), & share many of the same feats, powers & abilities & scaling.

Having similar origins doesnt mean they dont have valid differences (enough valid differences) to cover separately.

The only Pokemon I think this can maybe apply to is Eevee, but even then giving each Eeveelution its own profile isn't beyond the realms lol

The main differences, besides gender, are 1 type (Versus 1 type in common.), maybe half their movepool, if that (Versus half their movepool in common.), & moderately different but still clearly similar appearances, as well as a couple of Pokedex entries the other lacks.
I don't think it's enough to split their profile, & with it, complicate explaining their stuff.

This is just wrong?
Half their movepool isnt significant?

Because they look similar????????????
Deadass?

Because you said:

No i didnt. I dont know where you're getting this lol

My point was none of what we do is mandatory. It is recreational.
It's all done as a hobby. But we still have standards & policy, because we want to provide good information in a neat & organized way, & we shouldn't neglect certain info just because some people don't care about it.
The info should be there so it is conveniently accessible & accurate.

This is an awful excuse?

Gallade and Gardevoir cant have separate profiles for being separate mons (not even pre-evos of eachother) because its organized! (Their stats and everything are just mismatched together lazily on the profile)

I have seen & participated in multiple matches over the years that used lower evolutionary stages.
& often they will be more than just "comparable to X", since again, often distinct movepools, P&A & behaviour. Not to mention there's been revisions waiting that others started about wanting to establish that they all scale to the scaling points equally.

Yeah, and they're memes. Caterpie vs funny-thing, priceless. It's not improtnt

Speaking as someone who's actually seen & debated in matches featuring Pokemon that aren't the final form, "Tabs that are never used regardless" is just lies.

they aint lol

My issue is that Pokemon like Gardevoir & Gallade aren't different enough, when they have a whole evolutionary line of feats, statements, half their typing, most of their appearance, their egg moves & at least half their level-up movepool in common, plus basically the same scaling points.#

Yes they are, theyre completely separate pokemon.

Plus, separating them into different profiles would just make writing their scaling & P&A justification clunkier, & make it more confusing for visitors to find all the members of the line.

No it wouldnt. This is just blatantly wrong. I dont know how you can go about thinking this

If they didn't share an evolutionary line or so much of their movepools or their lines' Pokedex entries, then they'd probably seem different enough, is my opinion, but you can't just ignore the rest of their evolutionary line when our site's whole point is literally to index.

You are literally only choosing to keep them together cause they share pre-evos, and actively ignore the fact theyre split evolutions lol

 

[Jinx666]

We have stuff like this why make it more complicated by making us have to write most of the same stuff twice

Idk what that is, but it looks completely fine.

If this is like, 3 characters in one profile, yet you give each separate one a tabber, then they'd easily be allowed to have a separate profile


Combining Gallade and Gardevoir though is stupid

 

[koopa3144]

Ngl I get wanting split evolutions to be separate profiles but all it really does is make an already bloated verse more bloated with more profiles. Also it's prob better to take this to the general thread as to not clog this one.