Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[StrymULTRA]

I've read the replies before my posts, and all of them are just "we don't do with Marvel/DC" or "you're the one to prove they're the same" when the authors don't remotely think the species are any different.

But hey, we're much likely gonna split even Arceus, the literal god who is the verse itself, ignoring the "Games/Anime/Manga exist as different timelines" claim lmfao

 

[Sniper670]

This isn't really responding to the argument that Ayewale presented here. That since each of those mediums has their own multiverse, they could each have theirn own Arceus creating their mini-multiverse, while sharing a greater multiverse. Leading to there being multiple distinct versions of Arceus that each created their own Pokemon, leading them to not scale, under your reasoning.

And you know who created the multiverse?

ARCEUS

 

[Antvasima]

Sharing a common point in the multiverse also isn’t justification. Marvel has several beings that exist between several universes if not a multiverse outright, and other verses even have multiversus crewators across canons (Primus/Unicron for example) but that still is not proof enough for a composite.

Also why would being created from the same being = same canon to begin with? This does not prove canoncity. I am also not sure where ‘Arceus created the anime, games and manga’ came from. Whether Arceus is immune to the split comes later.

This is correct, yes. Even if it is proven that Arceus canonically created all Pokemon continuities, it would only scale to him, not mean that the character abilities and statistics would automatically be the same for every species, regardles of if they are a part of a game, anime, or manga continuity.

See here for further information: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Crossovers

 

[Sniper670]

Are we really arguing over semantics know?

No? The site in and of itself specifies this, we don’t consider them the same thing

Okay, he's not arguing for compositing the canons, he arguing for making all of the pages cross-scaled, which is compositing feats from different canons.

And for Pokémon species, that is acceptable, and we have a rule that makes this acceptable.

Those of us who disagree obviously don’t agree with all Pokémon pages being cross scaled because cross scaling humans or specific characters is considered a composite. And that’s banned. But cross scaling the species is not a composite

 

[Sniper670]

At this point, one of the big cruxes of this discussion is that people simply don’t understand that cross scaling a species =/= compositing

Our rules outright specify that species being cross scales isn’t a composite and is acceptable to do here.

If people have a problem with this, get this rule removed from the standards then

 

[Agnaa]

And you know who created the multiverse?

ARCEUS

Please reread my post since I think you misunderstood it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is correct, yes. Even if it is proven that Arceus canonically created all Pokemon continuities, it would only scale to him, not mean that the character abilities and statistics would automatically be the same for every species, regardles of if they are a part of a game, anime, or manga continuity.

See here for further information: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Crossovers

Technically the Pokémon Gods shouldn't really be affected from this thing anyway, as they exist as fundamental concepts which make the multiverse in its entirely in their Abstract Forms. If we take different continuities as different timelines anyways, all of them scale to those equally, with only the physical avatars used there being affected.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That since each of those mediums has their own multiverse, they could each have theirn own Arceus creating their mini-multiverse, while sharing a greater multiverse.

Problem: This distinction is arbitrary. We are aware that both the games and the anime have parallel worlds.
We also know they are parallel to each other.

Occam's Razor is just that both include each other in their parallel worlds, not that a second layer of multiverse is present, that's very silly.

 

[Pikaman]

At this point, one of the big cruxes of this discussion is that people simply don’t understand that cross scaling a species =/= compositing

Our rules outright specify that species being cross scales isn’t a composite and is acceptable to do here.

If people have a problem with this, get this rule removed from the standards then

On a case by case basis, we’ve been over this

 

[Antvasima]

Those of us who disagree obviously don’t agree with all Pokémon pages being cross scaled because cross scaling humans or specific characters is considered a composite. And that’s banned. But cross scaling the species is not a composite

Scaling a specific Pokemon species to the feats performed within its own universe is fine, but it should not automatically scale to feats performed within another universe by the same species.

 

[Pikaman]

Oh would you look at that, 9 goddamn pages

 

[Sniper670]

Scaling a specific Pokemon species to the feats performed within its own universe is fine, but it should not automatically scale to feats performed within another universe by the same species.

Okay. The Pokédex entries exist to document and record Species behavior and stuff

Thing is. The entries are the same across all 3 media, meaning they all do the exact same thing

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This is correct, yes. Even if it is proven that Arceus canonically created all Pokemon continuities, it would only scale to him, not mean that the character abilities and statistics would automatically be the same for every species, regardles of if they are a part of a game, anime, or manga continuity.

See here for further information: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Crossovers

That seems weird, as he also directly created the very species that populate said Universes.

Is it accurate to say that a Pikachu in the Anime Universe is different from a Pikachu in the Game Universe? When both are created by the same Arceus, I find that difficult to believe.

 

[Antvasima]

Technically the Pokémon Gods shouldn't really be affected from this thing anyway, as they exist as fundamental concepts which make the multiverse in its entirely in their Abstract Forms. If we take different continuities as different timelines anyways, all of them scale to those equally, with only the physical avatars used there being affected.

Okay, if Agnaa and other staff members think that the evidence for a shared multiverse seems reliable, I think that it should scale to both Arceus and the multiversal abstract concepts, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. The Pokédex entries exist to document and record Species behavior and stuff

Thing is. The entries are the same across all 3 media, meaning they all do the exact same thing

Even if the abilities are mostly the same for each version of a Pokemon species, this does not mean that the established scale of power is the same for all of them.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems weird, as he also directly created the very species that populate said Universes.

Is it accurate to say that a Pikachu in the Anime Universe is different from a Pikachu in the Game Universe? When both are created by the same Arceus, I find that difficult to believe.

Please read our crossover rules. We cannot scale all versions of each Pokemon to be identical power-wise, as it depends on the preferences of the authors in charge of them. Even in the real world, I have read of valid theories of many universes being far more dissimilar to each other (as in different laws of physics) than simply the creatures within them not being identical in all of them.

 

[Sniper670]

On a case by case basis, we’ve been over this

It doesn’t matter. People like the OP and many others have argued against species scaling in general being different from composites, which contradicts the standards saying they’re acceptable

If people think species scaling is compositing period, then you need to first remove this rule as a whole.

 

[Ayewale]

Problem: This distinction is arbitrary. We are aware that both the games and the anime have parallel worlds.
We also know they are parallel to each other.

Occam's Razor is just that both include each other in their parallel worlds, not that a second layer of multiverse is present, that's very silly.

No, that’s not Occam’s Razor, that is breaking site policy??

We prevent mediums from being cross-scaled together unless there are explicit statements that they share a canon. After 8 pages of discussion I can say confidently that there are not any.

As for differences between Pokémon, I’ll summarize them in a later post since everyone refuses to go back and check. Give me a minute-I’m about to do university lecture.

 

[Sniper670]

Scaling a specific Pokemon species to the feats performed within its own universe is fine, but it should not automatically scale to feats performed within another universe by the same species.

Ant, this goes in direct conflicting with whats written on the Editing Rules page itself.

• Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of its potential characteristics at once. However, these profiles should not include exceedingly extraordinary or underwhelming feats and abilities from notable individuals of a species, and the viability of these profiles are determined on a case-by-case basis.

We allow species scaling across canons as the practice is not compositing. If this is now an issue, then this rule needs to be looked at again, or removed completely.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Even if the abilities are mostly the same for each version of a Pokemon species, this does not mean that the established scale of power is the same for all of them.

Please refer to my question.

If both are a particular species created by the exact same Pokemon, should they not have the same capabilities? Arceus making one particularly stronger implies it made a second version of a particular species that's stronger and/or weaker than the other instead of making it the same.

Please read our crossover rules. We cannot scale all versions of each Pokemon to be identical power-wise, as it depends on the preferences of the authors in charge of them. Even in the real world, I have read of valid theories of many universes being far more dissimilar to each other (as in different laws of physics) than simply the creatures within them not being identical in all of them.

There is no crossover taking place here...
From a writing standpoint, seems to be a non factor, as there seems to be a extensive amount of evidence that they are told to be consistent by higher ups at Gamefreak.

 

[Sniper670]

2. If we assume that Arceus is the same, why do we assume that all the Pokemon species he created are the same? You have to explicitly explain why he made them to all be the same. Not "he created all of them, so they're all the same".

As for differences between different mediums, this has already been discussed in-depth in this thread. I find it really annoying how you guys will point out how I make slight semantic differences in word choices but dozens to hundreds of posts of detail is something you can ignore. Can all of the opposition please go through some of the thread again so that I can stop repeating myself?

Because anyone here who has played the games or watched the other mediums knows they are shown to be the same all throughout?

Evolving at the same levels?

Evolving into the same exact forms?

Same Pokédex info?

Same exact moves learned by leveling up/growing stronger?

Same exact movepools?

Same physiology?

What explanat ion is needed at this point?

 

[Antvasima]

No, that’s not Occam’s Razor, that is breaking site policy??

We prevent mediums from being cross-scaled together unless there are explicit statements that they share a canon. After 8 pages of discussion I can say confidently that there are not any.

As for differences between Pokémon, I’ll summarize them in a later post since everyone refuses to go back and check. Give me a minute-I’m about to do university lecture.

We go even further than that as far as I recall. We usually do not tend to scale characters from different continuities to each other even if they have a crossover, as they are usually rescaled to fit with the scale of the other setting.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

No, that’s not Occam’s Razor, that is breaking site policy??

How is stating that the games and the anime share the same Multiverse (and a second layer not existing) breaking the site policy?
It is Occam's Razor, still.

 

[Sniper670]

We prevent mediums from being cross-scaled together unless there are explicit statements that they share a canon. After 8 pages of discussion I can say confidently that there are not any.

Where in the standards does it say they need to be stated canon? Your expecting this to fit the gold standard to an absolute T in order to be acceptable.

 

[Antvasima]

We allow species scaling across canons as the practice is not compositing. If this is now an issue, then this rule needs to be looked at again, or removed completely.

No we don't, and absolutely not. It is a common plot convention that characters from continuities with vastly different scales of power are adjusted to each other when they meet. Marvel and DC Comics characters differ enormously from timeline to timeline in this regard, and as far as I am aware, this holds true in most other verses with different versions of the same characters as well, including Dragon Ball. We are not going to mess up the reliability of our entire wiki just because some of our members really like Pokemon.

 

[Agnaa]

Evolving at the same levels?

Not true, evolution requirements change.

Evolving into the same exact forms?

Not true, some Pokemon get forms later on that are not represented in earlier generations. There's also regional variants.

Same Pokédex info?

Not true, Pokedex info is not the exact same all the time. It often changes even within generations.

Same exact moves learned by leveling up/growing stronger?

Not true, learnsets change. Pokemon sometimes become incapable of learning moves they could learn in previous generations.

Same exact movepools?

Not true, learnsets change. Pokemon sometimes become incapable of learning moves they could learn in previous generations.

Same physiology?

There are outliers, I believe the anime showed some giant Pokemon very early on. There's also regional variants.

I don't know much about the anime/manga, but I'd expect someone familiar with them would find more contradictions on these fronts.

 

[Ayewale]

Where in the standards does it say they need to be stated canon? Your expecting this to fit the gold standard to an absolute T in order to be acceptable.

How many verses assume different mediums share a canon without an explicit statement?

The answer is none.

 

[Sniper670]

No we don't, and absolutely not. It is a common plot convention that characters from continuities with vastly different scales of power are adjusted to each other when they meet. Marvel and DC Comics characters differ enormously from timeline to timeline in this regard, and as far as I am aware, this holds true in most other verses with different versions of the same characters as well, including Dragon Ball. We are not going to mess up the reliability of our entire wiki just because some of our members really like Pokemon.

Your missing the point Ant. I’m not talking about particular characters. I’m talking about a species. And the rule deems it acceptable for said species to be scaled

 

[Sniper670]

How many verses assume different mediums share a canon without an explicit statement?

The answer is none.

Masuda literally mentions its the same place ffs

 

[Antvasima]

Please refer to my question.

If both are a particular species created by the exact same Pokemon, should they not have the same capabilities? Arceus making one particularly stronger implies it made a second version of a particular species that's stronger and/or weaker than the other instead of making it the same.

By that logic every single version of a character that exists in a multiverse with a creator-god would be absolutely identical, not just Pokemon, and that is just not the case either in fiction or reality as far as I am aware.

There is no crossover taking place here...

The same rules still apply for cross-scaling between different continuities.

From a writing standpoint, seems to be a non factor, as there seems to be a extensive amount of evidence that they are told to be consistent by higher ups at Gamefreak.

Do they authorise if every single feat ever performed in every manga, every anime, and every game is absolutely consistent with a greater vision? If not, we should not give Pokemon special preferential treatment.

Anyway, that is my final word regarding this issue, and I most definitely am far too overworked to argue about it for hundreds of posts further. As far as I am concerned, this thread largely seems to have been accepted already, so that's it really.

 

[Pikaman]

It doesn’t matter. People like the OP and many others have argued against species scaling in general being different from composites, which contradicts the standards saying they’re acceptable

If people think species scaling is compositing period, then you need to first remove this rule as a whole.

Your last few argument have just been stonewalling, between trying to pick only specific parts of a single bit of artwork as canon, to demanding pretty much every staff member who voted come back and re-affirm their votes, to now pretending we need to achieve a changing in standards to get this approved. You’re just blocking progress and contributing nothing

 

[Antvasima]

Your missing the point Ant. I’m not talking about particular characters. I’m talking about a species. And the rule deems it acceptable for said species to be scaled

Within the same universe, sure, not be assumed to be the exact same across the entire multiverse.

 

[Sniper670]

By that logic every single version of a character that exists in a multiverse with a creator-god would be absolutely identical, not just Pokemon, and that is just not the case either in fiction or reality as far as I am aware.

The same rules still apply for cross-scaling between different continuities.

Do they authorise if every single feat ever performed in every manga, every anime, and every game is absolutely consistent with a greater vision? If not, we should not give Pokemon special preferential treatment.

Anyway, that is my final word regarding this issue, and I most definitely am far too overworked to argue about it for hundreds of posts further. As far as I am concerned, this thread largely seems to have been accepted already, so that's it really.

You called all staff to give their votes after seeing Stryms counter arguments. Only a few of the ones that voted initially did this.

So the old vote count doesn’t hold until they come back like you requested them to.

 

[Antvasima]

Your last few argument have just been stonewalling, between trying to pick only specific parts of a single but of artwork as canon, to demanding pretty much every staff member person who voted come back and re-affirm your votes, to now pretending we need to achieve a changing in standards to get this approved. You’re just blocking progress and contributing nothing

I would also much prefer if we start to proceed here.

 

[Antvasima]

You called all staff to give their votes after seeing Stryms counter arguments. Only a few of the ones that voted initially did this.

So the old vote count doesn’t hold until they come back like you requested them to.

Our staff recurrently tend to be very busy and lose interests after trying to help out as is required of them. The OP seems to have been accepted.

We do need to decide whether the evidence for a shared multiverse is sufficiently convincing to scale Arceus and the abstract entities to all of the continuities though.

 

[Sniper670]

Evolving at the same levels?

Not true, evolution requirements change.

Not for evolutions via leveling up. The starters are an example of this.

Evolving into the same exact forms?

Not true, some Pokemon get forms later on that are not represented in earlier generations. There's also regional variants.

And that’s why they are added as different keys for their abilities specifically. Regional variants especially since that’s location based

Same Pokédex info?

Not true, Pokedex info is not the exact same all the time. It often changes even within generations.

Same exact moves learned by leveling up/growing stronger?

Not true, learnsets change. Pokemon sometimes become incapable of learning moves they could learn in previous generations.

No they don’t. They are given information that’s added. Not replacing prior info.

Same exact movepools?

Not true, learnsets change. Pokemon sometimes become incapable of learning moves they could learn in previous generations.

This is game mechanics because the move isn’t programmed into a later game, despite the fact that narratively speaking, they can still know the move.

Same physiology?

There are outliers, I believe the anime showed some giant Pokemon very early on. There's also regional variants.

I don't know much about the anime/manga, but I'd expect someone familiar with them would find more contradictions on these fronts.

See above.

Same physiology?

There are outliers, I believe the anime showed some giant Pokemon very early on. There's also regional variants.

See above on my point about different keys.

 

[Sniper670]

Our staff recurrently tend to be very busy and lose interests after trying to help out as is required of them. The OP seems to have been accepted.

Is this fair?

Arguements were raised since then. And it goes way back to Syrym's comment

Disregarding it for early votes doesn't seem fair

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I’m still in agreement with the split after reviewing further arguments. It seems like this is being dragged out

 

[Sniper670]

Your last few argument have just been stonewalling, between trying to pick only specific parts of a single bit of artwork as canon, to demanding pretty much every staff member person who voted come back and re-affirm their votes, to now pretending we need to achieve a changing in standards to get this approved. You’re just blocking progress and contributing nothing

“Pretending”

No. You are arguing against species scaling because you think it’s compositing. The rule allows species scaling as it doesn’t consider it a composite

It’s directly conflicting, and pointing this problem out isn’t stonewalling. The rule needs to get removed or revised if doing this is problematic.

 

[Antvasima]

Is this fair?

Arguements were raised since then. And it goes way back to Syrym's comment

Disregarding it for early votes doesn't seem fair

Well, what am I supposed to do? If they do not want to respond again, due to finding all of the spam posts overwhelming to read, I cannot force them to do so.

Regardless, only a single staff member seems to have objected to the OP at any point in the history of this thread.