Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[Pikaman]

“Pretending”

No. You are arguing against species scaling because you think it’s compositing. The rule allows species scaling as it doesn’t consider it a composite

It’s directly conflicting, and pointing this problem out isn’t stonewalling. The rule needs to get removed or revised if doing this is problematic.

It’s only on a case by case basis, in this case staff have ruled to split, everything here is within the confines of current standards

 

[Agnaa]

Not for evolutions via leveling up. The starters are an example of this.

Legends: Arceus changed Cyndaquil to evolve at level 17 instead of level 14, for one example.

No they don’t. They are given information that’s added. Not replacing prior info.

I think it's misleading to affirmatively say their Pokedex information is the same. It's just not retcon'd (and I can't even confirm if that's true, since it would require going through thousands of entries).

This is game mechanics because the move isn’t programmed into a later game, despite the fact that narratively speaking, they can still know the move.

That is not true, Pokemon have had moves removed that were still programmed into the game. They can still learn them by being transferred from earlier gens, but they can't learn them in newer gens.

See above on my point about different keys.

Your argument is "We should scale them because they're the same." I don't think it's a great argument to just push all the exceptions to that into different keys.

 

[Sniper670]

Well, what am I supposed to do? If they do not want to respond again, due to finding all of the spam posts overwhelming to read, I cannot force them to do so.

Regardless, only a single staff member seems to have objected to the OP at any point in the history of this thread.

DarkDragonMedus also sided with the disagreeing side with GyroNuts (if that’s who you’re talking about).

 

[Sniper670]

It’s only on a case by case basis, in this case staff have ruled to split, everything here is within the confines of current standards

And you are agreeing to split it because your considering it compositing and breaking the rules.

Your equating a species to how character scaling is dealt with.

Which this rule specified isn’t compositing or the same thing as that. So this rule should be revised or removed if this is a problem.

 

[Pikaman]

If you’re gonna keep on making increasingly desperate and blatantly untrue arguments to try and delay the acceptance of this CRT, I’m not gonna obligate myself to continue responding to them, this thread has been accepted, end of.

 

[Sniper670]

Not for evolutions via leveling up. The starters are an example of this.

Legends: Arceus changed Cyndaquil to evolve at level 17 instead of level 14, for one example.

I’ll give you this one. That’s fair

No they don’t. They are given information that’s added. Not replacing prior info.

I think it's misleading to affirmatively say their Pokedex information is the same. It's just not retcon'd (and I can't even confirm if that's true, since it would require going through thousands of entries).

Not really. Go to Bulbapedia and see a Pokédex entry across all the gens for that Pokémon and they are repeated or having new entries added that doesn’t just replace the former one.

This is game mechanics because the move isn’t programmed into a later game, despite the fact that narratively speaking, they can still know the move.

This is game mechanics because the move isn’t programmed into a later game, despite the fact that narratively speaking, they can still know the move.

That is not true, Pokemon have had moves removed that were still programmed into the game. They can still learn them by being transferred from earlier gens, but they can't learn them in newer gens.

I need an example of this if you can name one

See above on my point about different keys.

Your argument is "We should scale them because they're the same." I don't think it's a great argument to just push all the exceptions to that into different keys.

Things like regional variants aren’t exceptions since it isn’t like we cross scale the different forms to each other. Alolan Raichu for instance has its own scaling from the regular Raichu form (or rather it should unless there’s a reason otherwise)

 

[Sniper670]

If you’re gonna keep on making increasingly desperate and blatantly untrue arguments to try and delay the acceptance of this CRT, I’m not gonna obligate myself to continue responding to them, this thread has been accepted, end of.

The rule is here for a reason. You need to remove it from the standards or revise it to be clearer if following it is somehow a problem here. Calling that out =/= delaying the thread, it’s pointing out your own rules.

 

[Ayewale]

List of differences between different Pokemon mediums:

• The concept of PP is only vaguely alluded to in the anime twice after two and a half decades.
• Movepools and movesets can widely varybetween the games, anime and manga.
  • These are listed as errors but they're still canon to the anime.
• Immunities in the anime are infamous for being circumvented a lot. There's pikachu attacking rhyhorn's horn, yeah, but there's also using steel wing to divert electricity into the ground and making yourself immune to it, flying pokemon being affected by spikes, etc.
• Moves themselves tend to work very differently from their in-game versions. Hypnosis in-game does nothing but put you to sleep, but in the anime it's capable of straight-up mindcontrolling you.
• The four-move limit (which is referenced by lots of NPCs pretty explicitly) doesn't exist in non-game mediums.
• The manga and anime just make shit up when it comes to moves.
• Moves in the game that are literally stated to be 'unable to miss' can miss in the anime/manga. You cannot dismiss this as a game mechanic, as (a) these are right in the descriptions of the move, which we generally take at face value and (b) it ignores other game mechanics like evasion and accuracy drops.
• Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Pokemon have hugely increased intelligence compared to other mediums. Not many here want to scale from PMD but still.
• Some Pokemon have different scaling chains outright due to scaling to different things. You cannot just dismiss this as 'individual mons' since some of this applies to Wild Pokemon as well.
• Legendaries in particular have dramatically different Powers, Abilities and scaling from their game or manga counterparts.
• The portrayal of levels varies quite a bit between different mediums. Bulbapedia (a trusted source) says so pretty explicitly.
• In the anime, pretty much all Pokemon are able to understand human speech perfectly. In the games, the ability to understand human speech is something noteworthy enough to put in a Pokedex; we can reasonably infer that Anime Pokemon are more intelligent overall than their in-game counterparts.
• This is off the top of my head.

I am confident that the responses to these will be dismissing it as 'oh it's just a multiverse' or 'oh it's just game mechanics'. The former doesn't invalidate the differences at all and still proves that the canons have significant differences; the latter isn't true for any of these, as everything here is either from the lore or acknowledged in in-game dialogue; it's not just 'Hurr durr Gfreak is lazy'.

Based off these changes, the anime profile/key for every Pokemon at the very least would have very different Powers & Abilities, a different intelligence rating and a strong possibility for different Attack Potency/Striking Strength. This is far more than enough grounds to split a species canon.

 

[Agnaa]

Not really. Go to Bulbapedia and see a Pokédex entry across all the gens for that Pokémon and they are repeated or having new entries added that doesn’t just replace the former one.

They often do repeat a few sets, I'll give you that. But I still doubt that they're fully consistent. Does the anime/manga really never show a Spoink stop bouncing, something which the (Ruby/BW2/OR) Pokedex says would cause its heart to stop? Does the anime/manga really never show a Magcargo get hit by water without it vaporizing, something which the (Sapphire/AS) Pokedex says would happen? Hell, does Magcargo really always show fitting damage for that when it gets touched?

I need an example of this if you can name one

****, I can try but it'd take a while. It's something that I've seen come up, like, three times. It's very rare but I've sometimes wanted to combine moves for a 'mon on a Smogon team, only to find out that the combination is illegal because one could only be obtained from tutors/TMs in a prior generation, and one was an egg move in a later generation. These sorts of things coming from TMs being removed would be easier to find, but if you're not okay with that I could try to find something else.

The only one I know off the top of my head is Smeargle losing the ability to use Dark Void, but idk if you'd count that either.

EDIT: If you're okay with move tutor/TM ones, Azumarill can learn DynamicPunch, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, and Seismic Toss in gen 3 but not gen 4.

EDIT 2: Non move tutor/tm one; Bulbasaur can learn Sludge through chain-breeding in gens 4-7, but can't in gen 8, but this could be due to dexit of one of the mons in the chain; I'll keep looking for another.

EDIT 3: Found a slam dunk, in gen 1 Charizard can learn Leer through level up, while it can't in gen 2.

 

[Sniper670]

I'll address Ayewale

1. PP is game mechanics
2. Movepool, also game mechanics. The limitation of portraying them in games do not exist. Some moves aren't even animated properly or in games
3. Immunities are prone to Plot inconsistencies. But they've also been shown to work exactly as they do in games. So it's just the series being inconsistent with it
4. Game mechanics again. Some of the moves which can't miss bypass accuracy checks, which do not exist in anime. And some are straight up just homing attacks that are not bound to the limitation of turn based game mechanics
5. Pokémon mystery Dungeon wild Pokémon are the same as they are in games. The exception being the humanized ones, which again. The plot of PMD is that trainer has traveled from the human world(Main multiverse) to a world where only Pokémon exist
6. Strym addressed this. Wild mons should not scale to Trained ones because trained mons have been proven to be significantly stronger than wild ones.
7. Legendaries do not change wildly. Same lore, same moveset. I'm not sure where you got that from. Plus a world with Megas exists and there's another that Megas don't exist
8. Levels are arbitrary numbers used by the games and manga to gauge how strong Pokémon are. Plus, it exists in anime. It's just not relevant in that world for it to be in your face all the times
9. If they didn't understand human speech, then there is no point shouting commands at them to use a move
10. Nice. You didn't prove anything

 

[Agnaa]

If they didn't understand human speech, then there is no point shouting commands at them to use a move

Uhh, IRL animals can respond to commands, but they don't properly understand human speech; they wouldn't be able to communicate if they had a voice. They just have a limited number of vague connections between certain sounds and actions.

 

[Sniper670]

If they didn't understand human speech, then there is no point shouting commands at them to use a move

Uhh, IRL animals can respond to commands, but they don't properly understand human speech; they wouldn't be able to communicate if they had a voice. They just have a limited number of vague connections between certain sounds and actions.

I don't remember the last time a Pokémon was commanded to do something and they couldn't.

Even in the games, there are Pokémon used by the police, beauty pargeant(forgot actual name), other tournaments not related to battles, etc.

Many Pokémon help humans in various environments in games

So no, Pokémon not being able to understand human speech is false.

 

[Pikaman]

The rule is here for a reason. You need to remove it from the standards or revise it to be clearer if following it is somehow a problem here. Calling that out =/= delaying the thread, it’s pointing out your own rules.

It’s perfectly clear and nobody here is going against it, on a CASE BY CASE BASIS, “compositing” species profiles may not be seen as such, it has been ruled Pokémon does fit the requirements to be an exception. No standards need to be revised or removed period

 

[Sniper670]

All I can see from Ayewale's argument is basically insisting the amime/manga abide by game mechanics

Everything boils down to game mechanics just not being a thing in anime/manga

 

[StrymULTRA]

List of differences between different Pokemon mediums:

• The concept of PP is only vaguely alluded to in the anime twice after two and a half decades.
• Movepools and movesets can widely varybetween the games, anime and manga.
  • These are listed as errors but they're still canon to the anime.
• Immunities in the anime are infamous for being circumvented a lot. There's pikachu attacking rhyhorn's horn, yeah, but there's also using steel wing to divert electricity into the ground and making yourself immune to it, flying pokemon being affected by spikes, etc.
• Moves themselves tend to work very differently from their in-game versions. Hypnosis in-game does nothing but put you to sleep, but in the anime it's capable of straight-up mindcontrolling you.
• The four-move limit (which is referenced by lots of NPCs pretty explicitly) doesn't exist in non-game mediums.
• The manga and anime just make shit up when it comes to moves.
• Moves in the game that are literally stated to be 'unable to miss' can miss in the anime/manga. You cannot dismiss this as a game mechanic, as (a) these are right in the descriptions of the move, which we generally take at face value and (b) it ignores other game mechanics like evasion and accuracy drops.
• Pokemon Mystery Dungeon Pokemon have hugely increased intelligence compared to other mediums. Not many here want to scale from PMD but still.
• Some Pokemon have different scaling chains outright due to scaling to different things. You cannot just dismiss this as 'individual mons' since some of this applies to Wild Pokemon as well.
• Legendaries in particular have dramatically different Powers, Abilities and scaling from their game or manga counterparts.
• The portrayal of levels varies quite a bit between different mediums. Bulbapedia (a trusted source) says so pretty explicitly.
• In the anime, pretty much all Pokemon are able to understand human speech perfectly. In the games, the ability to understand human speech is something noteworthy enough to put in a Pokedex; we can reasonably infer that Anime Pokemon are more intelligent overall than their in-game counterparts.
• This is off the top of my head.

I am confident that the responses to these will be dismissing it as 'oh it's just a multiverse' or 'oh it's just game mechanics'. The former doesn't invalidate the differences at all and still proves that the canons have significant differences; the latter isn't true for any of these, as everything here is either from the lore or acknowledged in in-game dialogue; it's not just 'Hurr durr Gfreak is lazy'.

Based off these changes, the anime profile/key for every Pokemon at the very least would have very different Powers & Abilities, a different intelligence rating and a strong possibility for different Attack Potency/Striking Strength. This is far more than enough grounds to split a species canon.

I'll address those tomorrow or the day after. I have an explanation for any of those, just that with phone is hard.

 

[Sniper670]

I'll look forward to that

 

[Sniper670]

It’s perfectly clear and nobody here is going against it, on a CASE BY CASE BASIS, “compositing” species profiles may not be seen as such, it has been ruled Pokémon does fit the requirements to be an exception. No standards need to be revised or removed period

When we have people here who outright consider wild Pokémon species as different characters, and keep confusing them as such to ban their cross scaling, they are confusing a species with characters and are forgetful with this rule that deems them different.

 

[Sniper670]

On top of that, the evidence used for “understanding human speed being noteworthy to put in the Pokédex” is based off Latias’s telepathic ability to communicate with people.

Of course it’s going to be noteworthy when this is a telepathy feat.

 

[Agnaa]

I'd also like to remind people of the inconsistencies and potential inconsistencies here.

Not really. Go to Bulbapedia and see a Pokédex entry across all the gens for that Pokémon and they are repeated or having new entries added that doesn’t just replace the former one.

They often do repeat a few sets, I'll give you that. But I still doubt that they're fully consistent. Does the anime/manga really never show a Spoink stop bouncing, something which the (Ruby/BW2/OR) Pokedex says would cause its heart to stop? Does the anime/manga really never show a Magcargo get hit by water without it vaporizing, something which the (Sapphire/AS) Pokedex says would happen? Hell, does Magcargo really always show fitting damage for that when it gets touched?

I need an example of this if you can name one

****, I can try but it'd take a while. It's something that I've seen come up, like, three times. It's very rare but I've sometimes wanted to combine moves for a 'mon on a Smogon team, only to find out that the combination is illegal because one could only be obtained from tutors/TMs in a prior generation, and one was an egg move in a later generation. These sorts of things coming from TMs being removed would be easier to find, but if you're not okay with that I could try to find something else.

The only one I know off the top of my head is Smeargle losing the ability to use Dark Void, but idk if you'd count that either.

EDIT: If you're okay with move tutor/TM ones, Azumarill can learn DynamicPunch, Mega Kick, Mega Punch, Mimic, and Seismic Toss in gen 3 but not gen 4.

EDIT 2: Non move tutor/tm one; Bulbasaur can learn Sludge through chain-breeding in gens 4-7, but can't in gen 8, but this could be due to dexit of one of the mons in the chain; I'll keep looking for another.

EDIT 3: Found a slam dunk, in gen 1 Charizard can learn Leer through level up, while it can't in gen 2.

 

[Sniper670]

From Sword Pokedex

They live as a group, but when the time comes, one strong Meltan will absorb all the others and evolve.

Again. You and Ayewale are using Game mechanics to argue

 

[Agnaa]

Ah shit, my bad, I'll remove that then.

 

[Ayewale]

I'll address Ayewale

1. PP is game mechanics
2. Movepool, also game mechanics. The limitation of portraying them in games do not exist. Some moves aren't even animated properly or in games
3. Immunities are prone to Plot inconsistencies. But they've also been shown to work exactly as they do in games. So it's just the series being inconsistent with it
4. Game mechanics again. Some of the moves which can't miss bypass accuracy checks, which do not exist in anime. And some are straight up just homing attacks that are not bound to the limitation of turn based game mechanics
5. Pokémon mystery Dungeon wild Pokémon are the same as they are in games. The exception being the humanized ones, which again. The plot of PMD is that trainer has traveled from the human world(Main multiverse) to a world where only Pokémon exist
6. Strym addressed this. Wild mons should not scale to Trained ones because trained mons have been proven to be significantly stronger than wild ones.
7. Legendaries do not change wildly. Same lore, same moveset. I'm not sure where you got that from. Plus a world with Megas exists and there's another that Megas don't exist
8. Levels are arbitrary numbers used by the games and manga to gauge how strong Pokémon are. Plus, it exists in anime. It's just not relevant in that world for it to be in your face all the times
9. If they didn't understand human speech, then there is no point shouting commands at them to use a move
10. Nice. You didn't prove anything

1. How the **** is PP game mechanics when the manga explicitly mentions and refers to it multiple times?
2. Why are movepools game mechanics again? There's straight-up a move relearner and forgetter NPC, and it's acknowledged in-universe occasionally. 'Some moves aren't animated properly' also makes zero sense; the game's are the "proper animations" and everything else is an adaptation.
3. Cool, so we agree that immunities work differently in the anime & manga.
4. I put it right there that swift being unable to miss isn't game mechanics. We do not treat the descriptions of moves as game mechanics at all, otherwise nearly every single move on a Pokemn's P&A would be invalid.
5. PMD wild Pokemon are just as intelligent as the 'humanized' ones, there is no distinction.
6. Did you misread what I said? Some wild pokemon have scaled to other wild pokemon or even trainer mons, so their species page should be updated as such.
7. False. Not sure what to tell you other than that.
8. The point is that they work differently between mediums, which you didn't debunk.
9. Do you know how real life animals work?

 

[Ayewale]

I don't remember the last time a Pokémon was commanded to do something and they couldn't.

Even in the games, there are Pokémon used by the police, beauty pargeant(forgot actual name), other tournaments not related to battles, etc.

Many Pokémon help humans in various environments in games

So no, Pokémon not being able to understand human speech is false.

Pokemon are not able to understand human speech on average. If every Pokemon could do it, then the ability to do so would not be noted. Latios and Latias's pokedex profiles literally state, bluntly: "Their high intelligence allows them to understand human speech." Ergo, it is not an ability all Pokemon possess.

There are dogs used by the police in real life. There are animals trained to help humans in real life. That doesn't mean animals can understand human speech; you would be shocked by how much animals can 'understand' humans while having no understanding of human speech.

 

[Ayewale]

On top of that, the evidence used for “understanding human speed being noteworthy to put in the Pokédex” is based off Latias’s telepathic ability to communicate with people.

Of course it’s going to be noteworthy when this is a telepathy feat.

No it isn't. It states very explicitly that it can understand human speech; it's not based off it's ability to communicate with people. Plus, telepathy refers to it's ability to read minds, but the pokedex says right there: "human speech".

What the **** is going on right now? Understanding people physically speaking is a telepathy feat?

 

[Sniper670]

1. Yes. But it's minor and is not referenced much. In fact in anime its almost nonexistent. Its literally just arbitrary numbers indicating stamina
2. That's false. GF barely has time to animate of the moves properly. I quite remember that meme where an headbutt is animated as a kick lol. One of the biggest things GF has never been good at, is animating moves lol
3. They dont. Anime works off plot inconveniences a lot of the time, but more often than not, they work just as is
4. Swift is game mechanics and can be dodged. It's literally homing attacks. Unless you want to argue it's Vector Manipulation, of which it's not
5. Ooh? But there's is. I don't see any "intelligence" here. Pokémon can speak to Pokémon, and have learned to live their lives without humans. Big deal.
6. Sure
7. Cool. You can dodge that. As I'm right. If
8. I pointed out these are just the limitations of the game being nonexistent in manga and anime. Plus, the creator of Pokémon literally says the manga is the way he envisioned the world.
9. Yes I do. What about it

 

[Sniper670]

Pokemon are not able to understand human speech on average. If every Pokemon could do it, then the ability to do so would not be noted. Latios and Latias's pokedex profiles literally state, bluntly: "Their high intelligence allows them to understand human speech." Ergo, it is not an ability all Pokemon possess.

But they obey commands no?

They won't obey you if you don't have enough badges but still


I don't remember where it was mentioned Pokémon are so dumb they can't understand human speech at all

In fact, the ability of a Pokemon to adapt to human comands relatively quickly after catching them in the wild speaks of their intelligence

There are dogs used by the police in real life. There are animals trained to help humans in real life. That doesn't mean animals can understand human speech; you would be shocked by how much animals can 'understand' humans while having no understanding of human speech.

I've explained this above.

 

[Agnaa]

Yes. But it's minor and is not referenced much. In fact in anime its almost nonexistent. Its literally just arbitrary numbers indicating stamina

It only being mentioned a few times in the manga makes it just game mechanics? Bruh.

 

[Sniper670]

Not necessarily game mechanics. But it's something that is barely mentioned or referenced in manga/anime

It's basically case by case depending on how powerful your Pokémon is

 

[Pikaman]

I’m just gonna say it, can we close this thread? Arguments are getting increasingly circular and/or nonsensical, and staff have voted overwhelmingly to apply changes. What more is there to do except invite more wastage of the the time of the people involved here? Even Ant said

The OP seems to have been accepted.

Not to mention we are on 9 pages

 

[Sniper670]

No it isn't. It states very explicitly that it can understand human speech;

Because of its telepathy ability. The Pokédex specifies this as well.

Latias is highly sensitive to the emotions of people. If it senses any hostility, this Pokémon ruffles the feathers all over its body and cries shrilly to intimidate the foe.

Leaf Green

It can telepathically communicate with people. It changes its appearance using its down that refracts light.

it's not based off it's ability to communicate with people. Plus, telepathy refers to it's ability to read minds, but the pokedex says right there: "human speech".

“Ignores 2 other Pokédex entries directly citing telepathic communication”

 

[Antvasima]

1. How the **** is PP game mechanics when the manga explicitly mentions and refers to it multiple times?
2. Why are movepools game mechanics again? There's straight-up a move relearner and forgetter NPC, and it's acknowledged in-universe occasionally. 'Some moves aren't animated properly' also makes zero sense; the game's are the "proper animations" and everything else is an adaptation.
3. Cool, so we agree that immunities work differently in the anime & manga.
4. I put it right there that swift being unable to miss isn't game mechanics. We do not treat the descriptions of moves as game mechanics at all, otherwise nearly every single move on a Pokemn's P&A would be invalid.
5. PMD wild Pokemon are just as intelligent as the 'humanized' ones, there is no distinction.
6. Did you misread what I said? Some wild pokemon have scaled to other wild pokemon or even trainer mons, so their species page should be updated as such.
7. False. Not sure what to tell you other than that.
8. The point is that they work differently between mediums, which you didn't debunk.
9. Do you know how real life animals work?

Can you write an explanation post of the discussion and arguments so far here please?

Also, can somebody list all of the staff members who helped out here earlier, so I can send a notification to all of the staff members who commented here earlier afterwards.

 

[Sniper670]

I’m just gonna say it, can we close this thread? Arguments are getting increasingly circular and/or nonsensical, and staff have voted overwhelmingly to apply changes. What more is there to do except invite more wastage of the the time of the people involved here? Even Ant said




Not to mention we are on 9 pages

Right. You can't refute so why don't we use the early votes to get this over with.....


That's you rn

 

[Pikaman]

Right. You can't refute so why don't we use the early votes to get this over with.....


That's you rn

No. We have refuted, and have done so for 9 pages. And to put it bluntly, no amount of crying from you invalidates the staff votes, stop complaining about them

 

[Sniper670]

You're putting too much weight behind early votes when counter arguments had not been made

It's as good as invalid

 

[Agnaa]

Even with later votes there's been a fair few staff support for splitting.

 

[Pikaman]

You're putting too much weight behind early votes when counter arguments had not been made

It's as good as invalid

It’s “as good as invalid” in no world but your own head

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I’m just gonna say it, can we close this thread? Arguments are getting increasingly circular and/or nonsensical, and staff have voted overwhelmingly to apply changes. What more is there to do except invite more wastage of the the time of the people involved here? Even Ant said

I’m totally for this.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you write an explanation post of the discussion and arguments so far here please?

Also, can somebody list all of the staff members who helped out here earlier, so I can send a notification to all of the staff members who commented here earlier afterwards.

@Ayewale

 

[Antvasima]

(Just in case we need clearer staff support here.)

 

[Pikaman]

Can you write an explanation post of the discussion and arguments so far here please?

Also, can somebody list all of the staff members who helped out here earlier, so I can send a notification to all of the staff members who commented here earlier afterwards.

Has this not already been done like yesterday iirc?