Giygas vs Fused Zamasu 2

[Kyo_Zero]

Honestly I was finding this to be a pretty interesting discussion, however given that it derailed horribly due to immature fanboys, it was shut down. Am I allowed to just start a new topic on this or something like that? Or will I find that this topic is deleted, either way hopefully this can continue where it left off (I will not be carrying votes over), and not turn this into a flame war.


No form...



You cannot grasp the true form of Zamasu's attack!

 

[Cropfist]

Giygas via mind hax and superior abilities.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Does he even us mind attacks in that form I thought he was mindless or insane like Zamasu? Just asking.

Also what big things did he do with his reality warping because if it isn't anything big then no one should say Giygas via reality warping.

 

[Promestein]

Giygas is very much mindless and insane but his default attacks are mind attacks.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

@Promestein Ok thanks I just needed to know. Also do you know what his reality warping is like

 

[Batsuichimonji]

Zamasu. He can easily take Giyagas over as Zamasu merged with a verse FAR larger than our own universe. Giygas was also being harmed by charcters much less capable, overall, than the trio Zamasu was fighting. This is essentially open and shut.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Giygas. He was a potent reality warper back when he was tier 5. Not to mention how casually he is in Low 2-C with the potential to be far higher. Even in his insane state, he leads with U+ psychic attacks that the party only survives due to PIS (the same thing that allowed Goku and co to survive Zamasu's attack). Speaking of Zamasu's attack. The dude spams lasers. Not going to hurt anyone. Bottom line is Zamasu is basically haxless, or his hax is crap for tier 2 (immortality, unless it's type 5, is laughable to tier 2s), and Giygas does everything Zamasu can do and more.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Well the only reason he has nothing is because he had no time like I said on the last thread and Goku and crew surviving those lasers at also pis so that means nothing. This fight should not take place as we never had a chance to see Zamasu's full potential he like giygas could be much more power.

Also you guys keep reality warping... What did he do with it because if it was something small it means nothing.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I know, with the laser survival being PIS. I said that in my post.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

Zamasu. He can easily take Giyagas over as Zamasu merged with a verse FAR larger than our own universe. Giygas was also being harmed by charcters much less capable, overall, than the trio Zamasu was fighting. This is essentially open and shut.

Remember, it's possible that Giygases influence also extendeds to multiple universes, and he may well have destroyed them as well. As far as I'm aware, Zamasu was becoming one with the universe, however I don't recall him spreading to other universes and timelines, so him taking control of a "Larger" universe seems pretty unremarkable.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

2 (3) - 1 in Giygas's favour (Since this isn't originally my topic does my vote count?)

 

[FTW395]

In my opinion Giygas' hax is overrated, but I don't see Zamasu actually beating him either. So like on the other topic my vote will go to inconclusive.

 

[SomebodyData]

Going with Zamasu for the same reason as before. @Kyo no.

 

[FateAlbane]

Zamasu for the same reasons I gave in the other thread.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I remember SD's reasons, but what was yours again?

@SD. Here's an analogy. I'm a building buster who can fuse with a building. I fused with one normal building, and now I'm trying to fuse with another building. Problem is, this other building is sentient, reality warping with his mere presence, and loves to spam mind attacks.

Also, if becoming one with the universe makes someone capable of absorbing other omnipresents, then Ness, the creation quatro, Hao Asakura, Giygas himself, etc. Should get an upgrade. Because Zamasu wasn't invading other timelines on his own accord. It was because of the time rift that the time machines leave. Note how Krillin compared it to how Black came the first time, and he was able to come to the current timeline because of the rift that Trunks left behind. Also note how Zamasu got destroyed in the present right where the time machine left/came back. So no. Zamasu does not have the capability to invade other universes on his own volition. And this isn't even a theory. This is heavily implied.

 

[FTW395]

~snip

Where was it ever stated that Zamasu invaded other universes by using the time rift the time machines created?

 

[FateAlbane]

My reasons were the same as SD. It's literally impossible to remember his reasons without remembering mine, as tey were what made me change my vote in the first place.

Also, the whole "only type 5 immortality matters in tier 2 matches" is BS, especially when it's low 2-C here and not, say, High 2-A. Even type, 4 or 8 immortality can be very problematic to deal with depending on the character. And finally, remember how the previous thread was closed partially because a few people were downplaying Gyigas? Well, now you seem to be doing the same, except you're downplaying Zamasu. @Cal

 

[FateAlbane]

Also, sorry in advance for the typos. Not typing from my PC here.

Edit: And "heavily implied" (where?) <<<< Demonstrated feat.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Firstly, tier 2 in general is incredibly haxxed. Not just the upper bounds of it. Unless you'd say that if he reached tier 2, Goku would stand a chance against the sealed creation trio. Secondly...

Characters with abilities that can ignore one or multiple statistics of opponents or make them irrelevant to a certain extent.

Take note that hax is something relative. For example, atomic destruction, and time stop, are hax abilities for tier 8, but not for tier 2.

Reality/probability/causality warping abilities are not hax for cosmic entities, they are mediocre for beings of this level. Hax is something that should grant a significant advantage over opponents with equal statistics.

Straight from our hax page. If these things aren't considered hax, why would immortality, something that can be countered by these abilities relatively easily, be? Agreed Types 4 and 8 are pretty good depending on the person. But Zamasu no longer has the former, and never had the latter.

You saw the same episode I did, right? Other than becoming one with the universe (something Giygas did, so meaningless in this battle), what is one haxxed thing he did? We're making assumptions enough with his fusionism thing.

 

[SomebodyData]

@Cal too bad that the building trying to absorb the other is mindless, and the fact that the other building doesn't spam reality warping in his current form (due to being mindless as well).

Your comparison doesn't work. Giygas and your examples stopped at one. Zamasu was spreading beyond that. Now, how would Krillin would know what's even going on? His comparison, seems more of an emotional comparison, due to the mystery and fear of what's going, similar to before. Make a thread about it, this isn't the place.

@Fate don't say a staff member is downplaying .

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

When you're presence alone is reality warping (and you're holding back), you don't need to actively spam it. It's passive. Like a ghost's intangibility.

 

[SomebodyData]

So he was constantly spamming them offensively against his enemies? Like Ness and the rest?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He was spamming psychic attacks. Doubt you can spam something that's passive.

 

[FateAlbane]

>> Implyin Giygas is all that haxxed when compared to the more haxxed tier 2 characters. Kek

If he was, a match against Zamasu wouldn't even happen. It would be hax stomp. The Creation Trio is way more haxxed than Giygas, the comparison you just made makes no freaking sense (even I said Palkia would murderstomp Zamasu in that other thread you made).

And sorry, but saying that actual Reality warping is not hax is the funniest thing I've read here. Unless it's the most ridiculous lvl of RW where the character has no actual good combat applucations to go along with it. Having better levels of Reality warping can decide matchez in almost any tier... Unless you want to make your own argument for Giygas RW moot.

>> We ask where it was implied that it was the time machine and not Zamasu's powers invading other timelines.

>> You reply by telling ME to show the most obvious thing he did in the episode.

...Yeah, I'm starting to think we didn't see the same episode.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You're right. Giygas ISN'T that haxxed when it comes to other tier 2s. I will openly admit that. The thing is, Zamasu isn't that haxxed either, and to even a lesser extent.

I said originally that the match shouldn't have happened. I only replied to quiet the people who said "Zamasu stomps because immortality." And let's not say the creation trio. Let's take Speed Equalized Moon, Seiya or Megaman.EXE.

I didn't write that DarkLK did. The guy who structured the entire system here. I missed a few ' ' s here and there. It should've looked more like this:

Characters with abilities that can ignore one or multiple statistics of opponents or make them irrelevant to a certain extent.

Take note that hax is something relative. For example, atomic destruction, and time stop, are hax abilities for tier 8, but not for tier 2.

Reality/probability/causality warping abilities are not hax for cosmic entities, they are mediocre for beings of this level. Hax is something that should grant a significant advantage over opponents with equal statistics.


Is there any other logical reason how he suddenly broke the time barrier? I can take him becoming one with the universe. It's fiction. I hold nothing against Zamasu for that. What I do hold against him is the fact that he started penetrating the current timeline right were the time machine came from. It's not like they introduced that concept for nothing.

Again. He fused with the universe. Cool. That's a great ability to get into tier 2 with. Proud of DB for that. But other than that, he rains death beams.

 

[SomebodyData]

Honestly, other than that is his ability, (Which is still plausible, and to a degree, logical by fiction standards), no not really. And your idea would work had he still had the time ring, but he didn't. Furthermore, then that would mean he would have been spreading from other entry points, which would have been apparent.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He fused with the timeline. I'm pretty sure that gives him access to any temporal rifts in said timeline, like the time ring. And what other entry points? Isn't there only one time machine like, ever?

Also, @Fate. I'm not actually mad while typing. This is purely business. We're still cool.

 

[SomebodyData]

Idk about that point, time rifts would be more like cuts, rather than entry points to other timelines.

Actually there is two, but they also landed at different places.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Im going to go with Zamasu. Both are Universal embodiments, and very similar, Gigas showed more feats such as psychic powers etc, but it is reasonable to say Zamasu who no longer had a mortal body retained his immortality traits and can still use all his previous skills as he can clearly manipulate ki.

But the biggest reason I give it to zamasu is that he was spreading to other timelines and beginning to take them to, so his growth has not stopped and would continue most likely.

That's my two cents.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Cal I'd have replied yesterday, but I had to leave because PC problems. * kills self *

Anyways, yeah, like I said in the previous thread, while I think that SD's reasoning makes sense and had me convinced, I can understand just as well those who would still vote for Giygas. And I do agree with DLK for the most part for his amazing system... Except the RW part, because that still decides a good number of high tier matches, unless they have the exact same level of RW (actually at times, it's the only thing that may decide High Tier matches... XD).

Aside from that, same! NOT! I'm INFINITY MAD! I'll kill you!

Jk, It's just debating for fun, I'm already full of IRL complications, I'll go crazy if I get mad around here as well! Hahahaha! * hides voodoo doll with Cal's name in it * A-hem, yeah. No hard feelings. Never been mad. We're cool.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

You know, some people say that Zamasu lost his type 4 immortality after becoming one with the universe, others say he retained it, does it ever specify that he lost it or that anything changed? Or are people just saying he lost it due to speculation, such as him being destroyed by Zenó or something.

 

[FTW395]

I don't know how one could say Zamasu lost his type 4 immortality when it's obvious that his immortal self was the thing who became on with the universe, the Goku Black part died the moment Trunks cut him in half. The faces that took over Trunks' timeline were also of Zamasu alone and not of Merged Zamasu. So that's further proof that his immortal self was the one taking over the timeline.

 

[SSJRyu1]

The whole reason his immortality was stunted in the first place was solely due to Goku's body, even the soul of the other zamasu had nothing to do with it, so considering Goku's body is not part of him anymore there is no reason to believe his immortality is hampered in any way anymore, whether he is just the one soul or a fusion of both souls still.

 

[Batsuichimonji]

Zamasu. He can easily take Giyagas over as Zamasu merged with a verse FAR larger than our own universe. Giygas was also being harmed by charcters much less capable, overall, than the trio Zamasu was fighting. This is essentially open and shut.

Remember, it's possible that Giygases influence also extendeds to multiple universes, and he may well have destroyed them as well. As far as I'm aware, Zamasu was becoming one with the universe, however I don't recall him spreading to other universes and timelines, so him taking control of a "Larger" universe seems pretty unremarkable.

What I meant in my post was that Dragon Ball's universes are signifigantly larger than normal universe; as DB's verses have both Hells and Heavens included. Both the Hells and Heavens in each verse are almost the size of the cosmic portions of the verse, according to DB's map.

One DB's universe is almost 10 times the size of a regular universe.

 

[FTW395]

What I meant in my post was that Dragon Ball's universes are signifigantly larger than normal universe; as DB's verses have both Hells and Heavens included. Both the Hells and Heavens in each verse are almost the size of the cosmic portions of the verse, according to DB's map.

One DB's universe is almost 10 times the size of a regular universe.

10 times seems to be a bit too much. But yes the Dragonball Universe is about 2.2x the size of the regular universe.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

I remember a scan that showed the size of the DBZ universe,why is the sun like a 20th of the size of the universe? Doesn't this imply that the sun spans billions of galaxies across? Heck it's probably bigger than the green sun in MS paint adventures if what you say is true. Also, I'm of the impression spreading to other universes is a much better feat that spreading across a bigger universe, both Giygas and Zamasu (Granted he was planning to but kind of died too quickly) were doing this, so I fail to see how this gives either combatant an edge.

 

[Theglassman12]

I'll vote for zamasu due to ssjryu1's reasons.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

Crop - Giygas

Batsuichi - Zamasu

Cal - Giygas

FTW - Inconclusive

Somebody - Zamasu

Fate - Zamasu

SSJRyu - Zamasu

Glassman - Zamasu

Giygas - 2 Zamasu - 5 Inconclusive - 1

 

[FTW395]

I remember a scan that showed the size of the DBZ universe,why is the sun like a 20th of the size of the universe? Doesn't this imply that the sun spans billions of galaxies across? Heck it's probably bigger than the green sun in MS paint adventures if what you say is true.~

This is indeed odd size and placement for the sun. Dragonball Universe

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright. I guess I should say more. For one, I doubt Zamasu is more powerful, given the casualness of Giygas berserking the universe. We're not even certain that Zamasu would've taken over the current timeline. Granted, I've only seen the untranslated episode, so I could be wrong. Secondly, no offense SD, but the logic being used here would make Zamasu the most powerful Low 2-C, as I could easily say "If you're less than omnipresent, he blitzes you. If you're omnipresent. He absorbs you." And since Giygas actually has hax that he uses even when insane, and people are still voting for Zamasu, even someone like say, Arceus wouldn't be immune by that logic.

Also, for all the people saying immortality, it's easy to overcome that with reality warping. Which almost everyone in tier 2 has.