Giorno Giovanna (GER) VS Othinus with Gungnir

[Xantospoc]

Just a curious question as I wonder how far Giorno would get far in ToAru, and I am unsure if he can defeat the One Eyed Majin.

 

[Gabriel_00]

• Endless possibilities: As a Magic God, Othinus has almost absolute power. As such all possibilities are open for her power. But that produces an omnipotence paradox, because all possibilities also include possibilities like loosing against ones will against a weak opponent. This Paradox produces a situation which severly weakens Othinus, because her absolute power only works 50% of the time. If she lands in the negative of the infinite possibilities she can also recieve a form of backlash hurting herself.
• Gungnir: Othinus spear. With the help of it she can manipulate probability making it so that she has a 100% chance of success

• The lance would always hit its target once thrown.
• The lance could not be shot down or destroyed mid-flight

Othinus wins

 

[Alakabamm]

"The lance would always hit the target once thrown " --> this is ultimately the problem with her facing Giorno. It seems that she has to take an actio to activate her godlike powers. The fact that her powers are described as "coin tosses" (before getting Gungnir) also implies that she has to act to actually do something. Because GER works by removing actions it doesn't matter what the effect is.

The only way that this does not become a tie is if Othinus is willing the universe into existence with her mere presence and the lack of that presence is what destroys the universe. I am willing to accept that this may be the case when in one of Othinus' phases, but on a neutral battleground, it probably is not.

So it is a tie if neutral battleground and a win in Othinus' territory.

 

[Aurasuke]

Probably Othinius due to feats, the thing about the whole spear throwing thing is that she did it to let Kamijou win, she could have just warped away his existence, but he had too much plot armor and was also the main character.

 

[LazyHunter]

Probably Othinius due to feats, the thing about the whole spear throwing thing is that she did it to let Kamijou win, she could have just warped away his existence, but he had too much plot armor and was also the main character.

Completely unrelated to the discussion, but that's not really how that battle went at all, you missed the whole reason Othinus was doing the hundred billion world torture. Besides, Othinus couldn't erase Touma from existence because she couldn't erase IB.

As to how far Giorno would get with GER he definitely gets past the Toaruverse High Tiers. Anything past that is more difficult to determine, as Magic Gods also manipulate causality, time and are powerful reality warpers in general. By feats I would give it to Othinus, but it might go either way. The other Magic Gods are too strong for him, though.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cant othinus manipulate reality and causality?If so i dont think GER is gonna even work on her.

 

[Aurasuke]

The thing with imagine breaker is that it transfers to another host every time the last one dies. Basically it's like a transferable power that even magic gods can't stop making it a pretty high tier in terms of potency. It's not that surprising that Aleister has such an interest in it though. But as for any other power that has hacks, a magic god pretty much ignores it I mean she recreated an entire world with every other character in index. The amount of hax the index verse has is probably greater in quantity (and quality if you include the magic gods) than JoJo (ie unamed magicians who could curse someone to death with a vodo doll, if that someone isn't a magician)

 

[LazyHunter]

Cant othinus manipulate reality and causality?If so i dont think GER is gonna even work on her.

Magic Gods can do a lot of stuff with their powers: erase the universe, control time and space, resurrect the dead, control all living and dead beings in the universe, play pinball with galaxies, turn the sky orange or make 2+2 equal 5. The jump in power from Fiamma to Othinus was pretty ridiculous, and the other Magic Gods are much stronger than her. There's a link to a Magic God respect thread in the verse page, and while some of the conclusions it draws are wrong (because it does things like ignore Thor's statement about controlling the planet so as to interpret his "world" as "the Universe" or actually believing St. Germain's words) you can check it for the actual novel parts talking about Magic Gods.

 

[Aurasuke]

Hard to say responding to the thread maker's question. Maybe Garbrielle level? She's from another dimension technically and hasn't really shown her full power, but with her full power she's tier 4 or star level. Even if you can erase all attacks coming your way you'll still need to breath lol.

It's debatable whether or not Fiamma can defeat that guy though, his arm is an auto win button apparently that only lost to the main character and tier 2 Aleister who killed magic gods.

 

[Gabriel_00]

So, Othinus wins? Any objections?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cant othinus manipulate reality and causality?If so i dont think GER is gonna even work on her.

Magic Gods can do a lot of stuff with their powers: erase the universe, control time and space, resurrect the dead, control all living and dead beings in the universe, play pinball with galaxies, turn the sky orange or make 2+2 equal 5. The jump in power from Fiamma to Othinus was pretty ridiculous, and the other Magic Gods are much stronger than her. There's a link to a Magic God respect thread in the verse page, and while some of the conclusions it draws are wrong (because it does things like ignore Thor's statement about controlling the planet so as to interpret his "world" as "the Universe" or actually believing St. Germain's words) you can check it for the actual novel parts talking about Magic Gods.

I know how op othinus and the magic gods are cause i have seen threads around with their feats which is why i dont think GER would even work speaking of i need to get on the index light novel seen the anime but always been to lazy to read light novels.

 

[LazyHunter]

So, Othinus wins? Any objections?

I would consider it the most likely outcome, yes. My vote goes to her.

 

[Creatox122212]

So, Othinus wins? Any objections?

Well, i do have one, the thing is, if we take Giorno's Stand to the most logical, this is not the battle that Othinus can win so easily, because it contradicts many things, you have explained that Touma was able to survive a universal destruction from Othinus, but Giorno wouldn't?.

If we take Novel Giorno feats, he was able to tank an universal destruction of 36 times, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars, so, this makes him as an abstract being who cannot be killed so easily, I don't think even Gungnir can tresspass GER, mostly because of the fact that the supposed "Effect" of that spear is reduced to the point of zero.

Every single action has an effect, but the thing is, for everything Othinus tries to do, she gets nullified in all the intents, outcomes, etc. naturally, people tend to use feats when it comes to comparing the power of other characters, which is totally not the point of JJBA, since almost everyone in it only beats humans with powered guardian ghosts, so taking things as "feats" in JJBA could be debated.

If i take Novel Giorno w/GER this one definitely wins, if i take Canon Giorno however, I'm still on his side eitherway, if he can tank someone who erased time as was able to act against things that shouldn't be, then this is a win for Giorno.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So, Othinus wins? Any objections?

Well, i do have one, the thing is, if we take Giorno's Stand to the most logical, this is not the battle that Othinus can win so easily, because it contradicts many things, you have explained that Touma was able to survive a universal destruction from Othinus, but Giorno wouldn't?.
If we take Novel Giorno feats, he was able to tank an universal destruction of 36 times, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars, so, this makes him as an abstract being who cannot be killed so easily, I don't think even Gungnir can tresspass GER, mostly because of the fact that the supposed "Effect" of that spear is reduced to the point of zero.

Every single action has an effect, but the thing is, for everything Othinus tries to do, she gets nullified in all the intents, outcomes, etc. naturally, people tend to use feats when it comes to comparing the power of other characters, which is totally not the point of JJBA, since almost everyone in it only beats humans with powered guardian ghosts, so taking things as "feats" in JJBA could be debated.

If i take Novel Giorno w/GER this one definitely wins, if i take Canon Giorno however, I'm still on his side eitherway, if he can tank someone who erased time as was able to act against things that shouldn't be, then this is a win for Giorno.

Now i may not be the most knowledgable on index but from what i know the thing in touma`s arm is some sort of powerful entity that even magic gods cant mess with but the difference between giorno and touma is that touma has been shown negate attacks from magic gods while giorno hasnt.Giorno`s power is basically causality manipulation which makes it completely useless on beings who are acausal and exist outside time and space and not to mention othinus herself can manipulate reality and causality.This is off topic but what happenned to giorno when pucci destroyed the universe?That as always bugged me by the nature of his powers shouldnt the universe`s destruction been negated or is it that it did negate it but only for giorno and as such he is roaming around in the new universe.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

To answer your off-topic question, Celestial: No one knows if Giorno survived ot not when he had GER. It's been talked about if GER was still around with GioGio, even.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

To answer your off-topic question, Celestial: No one knows if Giorno survived ot not when he had GER. It's been talked about if GER was still around with GioGio, even.

I chalk it up to araki just forgetting that giorno could stop it well he purposely forgot that giorno could he kinda wrote himself into a wall.GER is probably no the most broken ability in jojo bizarre adventure if jotaro had called giorno for help that would stop pucchi from achieving his his goal and that would be the end of it and he couldnt have that happen so he just ignored that giorno would stop it.

 

[Creatox122212]

So, Othinus wins? Any objections?

Well, i do have one, the thing is, if we take Giorno's Stand to the most logical, this is not the battle that Othinus can win so easily, because it contradicts many things, you have explained that Touma was able to survive a universal destruction from Othinus, but Giorno wouldn't?.
If we take Novel Giorno feats, he was able to tank an universal destruction of 36 times, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars, so, this makes him as an abstract being who cannot be killed so easily, I don't think even Gungnir can tresspass GER, mostly because of the fact that the supposed "Effect" of that spear is reduced to the point of zero.

Every single action has an effect, but the thing is, for everything Othinus tries to do, she gets nullified in all the intents, outcomes, etc. naturally, people tend to use feats when it comes to comparing the power of other characters, which is totally not the point of JJBA, since almost everyone in it only beats humans with powered guardian ghosts, so taking things as "feats" in JJBA could be debated.

If i take Novel Giorno w/GER this one definitely wins, if i take Canon Giorno however, I'm still on his side eitherway, if he can tank someone who erased time as was able to act against things that shouldn't be, then this is a win for Giorno.

Now i may not be the most knowledgable on index but from what i know the thing in touma`s arm is some sort of powerful entity that even magic gods cant mess with but the difference between giorno and touma is that touma has been shown negate attacks from magic gods while giorno hasnt.Giorno`s power is basically causality manipulation which makes it completely useless on beings who are acausal and exist outside time and space and not to mention othinus herself can manipulate reality and causality.This is off topic but what happenned to giorno when pucci destroyed the universe?That as always bugged me by the nature of his powers shouldnt the universe`s destruction been negated or is it that it did negate it but only for giorno and as such he is roaming around in the new universe.

No one knows, since Giorno didn't appeared in Part 6 at all, it's also been discused however Giorno had GER during those events, so who knows.

In the novel however, he did survived it, 36 times to be exact, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars.

Of course you didn't saw how Giorno nullified the Magic Gods intents of attack, since he didn't appeared in TOARU at all, so you can't take this as a point of comparison, but rather, takes it as how Touma and Giorno powers diferes but are similar to each other.

IB nullifies any sort of fictional thing in the world, or at least things that shouldn't be logical at all, GER nullifies the cause and effect of each other, what it greatly differenciates these two characters is how they use their powers and the status of each one.

In this case, you can kill Touma with a simple shotgun, since it's pretty logical by itself, or rather, you could kill him with a gang of at least 30 to 50 people without too much problems, so only "fictional" things are the thing Touma can beat in the most common sense.

Giorno however, is not like that, his existence w/GER is also a paradox, since all the Stats of GER are "NONE", this means that he exists and doesn't exists at a continuity of Space-Time, and basically reality, it was also shown that he was also immune to King Crimson precog, which means that GER discarded the possibility of him being beat, which makes him an acausal stand who trascends Space/Time, and Probability/Casuality, since they are each sides from the same coin.

That's why she won't be able to do anything at all, even if she tries to use her reality/causality powers she won't be able to, since afaik, she doesn't have a way to alter a zero paradox at all, that's why i think Giorno still takes the cake in this battle.

 

[Aurasuke]

The thing about Touma surviving the universe being destroyed is not actually because he has that level of durability but because Othinius allowed him to live. In the end Othinius literally handed Touma a victory because he was the main character (though the author said it was something about understanding her). Basically he won because Othinius allowed him to win, and reverted everything back to the way it was before New Testament 9.

Actually Touma was killed over 10 000 times during his battle with Othinius, but Othinius simply brought him back to life each and every time.

The only being I can think of who may have escaped Othinius's destruction were the Magic gods in the hidden world, and Aleister who probably went to the hidden realm for awhile until things cooled down.

To be honest, Aleister probably already calculated Othinius would revert things back to normal, otherwise I doubt he would just sit idly by and do nothing.

 

[Aurasuke]

@ creator. To be honest, Othinius could just alter his powers and make them non existent so that he could do nothing. She was more than capable of creating beings like Fiamma who literally has an instant win button and allows him to defeat any opponent (only defeated by Aleister who is tier 2 and omnipresent, after he was weakened by the main protagonist touma), and Accelerator (considered the main plan of Aleister, most likely to be used to take down the magic gods sometime later) from literally nothing.

Even if he is considered a paradox, Othinius could simply remove his powers altogether. 100% Othinius is able to perform = any action with 100% certainty (except destroying the other magic gods probably in their unweakened form).

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So, Othinus wins? Any objections?

Well, i do have one, the thing is, if we take Giorno's Stand to the most logical, this is not the battle that Othinus can win so easily, because it contradicts many things, you have explained that Touma was able to survive a universal destruction from Othinus, but Giorno wouldn't?.
If we take Novel Giorno feats, he was able to tank an universal destruction of 36 times, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars, so, this makes him as an abstract being who cannot be killed so easily, I don't think even Gungnir can tresspass GER, mostly because of the fact that the supposed "Effect" of that spear is reduced to the point of zero.

Every single action has an effect, but the thing is, for everything Othinus tries to do, she gets nullified in all the intents, outcomes, etc. naturally, people tend to use feats when it comes to comparing the power of other characters, which is totally not the point of JJBA, since almost everyone in it only beats humans with powered guardian ghosts, so taking things as "feats" in JJBA could be debated.

If i take Novel Giorno w/GER this one definitely wins, if i take Canon Giorno however, I'm still on his side eitherway, if he can tank someone who erased time as was able to act against things that shouldn't be, then this is a win for Giorno.

Now i may not be the most knowledgable on index but from what i know the thing in touma`s arm is some sort of powerful entity that even magic gods cant mess with but the difference between giorno and touma is that touma has been shown negate attacks from magic gods while giorno hasnt.Giorno`s power is basically causality manipulation which makes it completely useless on beings who are acausal and exist outside time and space and not to mention othinus herself can manipulate reality and causality.This is off topic but what happenned to giorno when pucci destroyed the universe?That as always bugged me by the nature of his powers shouldnt the universe`s destruction been negated or is it that it did negate it but only for giorno and as such he is roaming around in the new universe.

No one knows, since Giorno didn't appeared in Part 6 at all, it's also been discused however Giorno had GER during those events, so who knows.

In the novel however, he did survived it, 36 times to be exact, alongside Rohan and Novel Kars.

Of course you didn't saw how Giorno nullified the Magic Gods intents of attack, since he didn't appeared in TOARU at all, so you can't take this as a point of comparison, but rather, takes it as how Touma and Giorno powers diferes but are similar to each other.

IB nullifies any sort of fictional thing in the world, or at least things that shouldn't be logical at all, GER nullifies the cause and effect of each other, what it greatly differenciates these two characters is how they use their powers and the status of each one.

In this case, you can kill Touma with a simple shotgun, since it's pretty logical by itself, or rather, you could kill him with a gang of at least 30 to 50 people without too much problems, so only "fictional" things are the thing Touma can beat in the most common sense.

Giorno however, is not like that, his existence w/GER is also a paradox, since all the Stats of GER are "NONE", this means that he exists and doesn't exists at a continuity of Space-Time, and basically reality, it was also shown that he was also immune to King Crimson precog, which means that GER discarded the possibility of him being beat, which makes him an acausal stand who trascends Space/Time, and Probability/Casuality, since they are each sides from the same coin.

That's why she won't be able to do anything at all, even if she tries to use her reality/causality powers she won't be able to, since afaik, she doesn't have a way to alter a zero paradox at all, that's why i think Giorno still takes the cake in this battle.

What i was trying to say with giorno not having being shown to negate magic gods is that he hasnt been shown to affect beings who are on that sort of level of power.And you dont have to explain how GER works i have read all of jojo bizarre adventure and am up to date with jojolion,i know exactly how it works what i am saying is that its causuality manipulation basically a higher form of reality manipulation where for every cause there is an effect and giorno can just erase the effect or vise versa but that doesnt work on beings who are acausal and exist outside causality now i am not sure if othinus is acausal,i know the true magic gods are because they existed outside time and distance but i do know othinus herself also has causaulity manipulation which is why i am not sure GER will even work on here.

 

[Creatox122212]

@ creator. To be honest, Othinius could just alter his powers and make them non existent so that he could do nothing. She was more than capable of creating beings like Fiamma who literally has an instant win button and allows him to defeat any opponent (only defeated by Aleister who is tier 2 and omnipresent, after he was weakened by the main protagonist touma), and Accelerator (considered the main plan of Aleister, most likely to be used to take down the magic gods sometime later) from literally nothing.
Even if he is considered a paradox, Othinius could simply remove his powers altogether. 100% Othinius is able to perform = any action with 100% certainty (except destroying the other magic gods probably in their unweakened form).

What is Othinus doing is taking an action against GER, ie Something that she can't do, so all her actions cannot have 100% certainity, that would be nullified to the point of Zero, and no, saying that "Othinus could just alter his powers and make them non existent" is not something shown in the Manga/Novel/Anime, etc. and therefore, we cannot take this thing into consideration.

And again, the logic of GER is to reduce everything to zero, Othinus cannot partake an action, since she wouldn't be able to start it to begin with, and trying to do anything against GER is again nullified to zero.

 

[Aurasuke]

I suppose for these kinds of debates it's like saying one character from universe has an unbreakable shield, while the other one has a sword that can pierce through anything.

Even if it's stated by the author, we can't automatically assume his power can negate every type of attack. Otherwise characters like Demonbane or even Kami Tenchi would be unable to kill him.

In cases like these, I believe it's best to use feats in order to justify the magnitude of his power.

 

[Creatox122212]

I suppose for these kinds of debates it's like saying one character from universe has an unbreakable shield, while the other one has a sword that can pierce through anything.
Even if it's stated by the author, we can't automatically assume his power can negate every type of attack. Otherwise characters like Demonbane or even Kami Tenchi would be unable to kill him.

In cases like these, I believe it's best to use feats in order to justify the magnitude of his power.

If we take feats into consideration, then JoJo is at a definitely lose, mostly because they don't deal with gods, magic gremlins, etc. they only deal with people who has guardians with incredible powers, JoJo isn't exactly a "magic" place, it's more of a "It Just Works" kinda place, where everything happens for happening.

At a conceptual level, Giorno would be above everything, at a practical level of use, I think this battle would be a tie between them, since neither fighter can do actually anything, basically, Stalemate.

 

[Aurasuke]

On a conceptual level though, Giorno cannot be killed by Kami Tenchi. Should we call that a tie too?

 

[Creatox122212]

On a conceptual level though, Giorno cannot be killed by Kami Tenchi. Should we call that a tie too?

Pretty Much, yes, neither of them can do shit either.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

On a conceptual level though, Giorno cannot be killed by Kami Tenchi. Should we call that a tie too?

Pretty Much, yes, neither of them can do shit either.

Ok now your just wanking giorno your saying an omnipotent being cant beat giorno you clearly dont know what omnipotent means i will just link this page for you here.https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Omnipotence Being omnipotent means you can do whatever you want and your the be all end all and you think causality manipulation will work on a omnipotent being?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I literally don't see how GioGio can fight against Kami Tenchi, and this is coming from a guy who loves JJBA.

 

[Aurasuke]

lol ^

 

[NotEvenHuman]

On a conceptual level though, Giorno cannot be killed by Kami Tenchi. Should we call that a tie too?

Pretty Much, yes, neither of them can do shit either.

Soooooo..... You're basically saying that Giorno is Tier 0. And since Novel Kars is above him, he's now Tier -1 now, right? I can't believe what i'm reading right now.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@Creatox thats one of the greatest NLF claims i've seen recently, lol.

 

[Creatox122212]

On a conceptual level though, Giorno cannot be killed by Kami Tenchi. Should we call that a tie too?

Pretty Much, yes, neither of them can do shit either.

Soooooo..... You're basically saying that Giorno is Tier 0. And since Novel Kars is above him, he's now Tier -1 now, right? I can't believe what i'm reading right now.

He's omnipotent in my heart lol.

Now seriously, I was just joking a little in there, going back to the point of this battle is, so do we leave this battle (Giorno vs Othinus) at a Stalemate following the logic of the powers or another outcome?.

 

[Creatox122212]

@Creatox thats one of the greatest NLF claims i've seen recently, lol.

I know, I was joking, sorry for that lol.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

@Creatox I'm still going with Othinus on this one but whatever, it's getting late where i live, i'm not starting a debate now.

 

[Aurasuke]

So basically Othinius wins due to feats, if we're going conceptually Fiamma solos because his hand has a win button so he automatically wins and can negate even your ability to negate attacks.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Well considering the amounts of NLF involved with GER i'll go with Othinus.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

^ This

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I have Othinius as well with what Aizen said.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Yeah, i think Othinus has this.

 

[AllanSaiyan]

So basically Othinius wins due to feats, if we're going conceptually Fiamma solos because his hand has a win button so he automatically wins and can negate even your ability to negate attacks.

Agreed.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

So can we add this to her victories then?