Gin Ichimaru's Bankai Ability - Buto Renjin.

[Zzsax]

The text does contradict Gin, by showing Gin admitting that he was lying about his Bankai.

Be reasonable for a moment. What is the purpose, from a narrative perspective, to depict Gin admitting to have lied about his Bankai's speed and length after he's already made a shocking statement about its speed and length?

The purpose is for the audience to learn that his previous statement was actually a lie. It is not a random line referring to a supposed another, unrelated claim that is the actual lie that the audience never reads about.

It is plausible especially from a readers point of view but an argument could be made really,lets be reasonable.

He wasn't really trying to impress Aizen,quite the opposite he was hiding his abilities, there is also a chance it might have been faster.we are translating from Japanese so things get misplaced also he just stabbed Aizen by surprise in the same sentence claiming it's a slower speed than Aizen thought what the hell?this raises doubt.

Also there is a chance that he might have told Aizen a different thing from ichigo,you know lies are not consistent as truth. another doubt

also he didn't need to lie to ichigo,if at all he needed to lie,it wasn't to inflate the speed but actually reduce it, as ichigo already noted that he talked too much about the length,in a ruse to distract him from the speed This also raises doubt


Conclusion Gin is a lying son of a bitch,we don't what's true anymore,if only there was an official way to confirm this mess

Oh look an official databook,where Gin cant lie

 

[AnonymousBlank]

If what Gin told Ichigo is the same thing he told Aizen, then his sword is even faster than he claimed. Over selling his sword's abilities would mean Aizen is better prepared for it than he needs to be which is a bad thing. What we see is -

1. Ichigo dodging its base extension speed and not expecting the speed.

2. Ichigo needs his mask to dodge Buto Renjin which going by his "lie" is mach 1000 (double what he was dealing wth previously)

3. The same masked Ichigo who gets blitzed by Aizen (this Aizen was losing to just Isshin).

4. Aizen gets amped once and utterly stomped Urahara, Isshin and Yoruichi simultaneously while they had prep.

5. Now an even stronger and faster Aizen than the one in point 4 is only aware of the "overblown" speed and is expecting Gin to betray, him gets blindsided by a (try and follow this with me) slower sword.

Even if I agree with you, Kamishini no Yari (and thus Ichigo) should get an even higher speed than what Gin stated.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No? If what Gin told Ichigo and Aizen is the same, then we cannot use a Mach 500 statement to quantify Ichigo, that much should be crystal clear.

You can't go "No, actually he was lying about lying to hide his abilities". That's getting into comical levels of rationalization.

 

[KazuiK]

From what I read, Gin says he lied about the true ability of his zanpakuto, which was not about speed but his poison, later on in the Databook, states that Gin's zanpakuto actually travels that speed and that in Bankai form is 2 times faster .... This is just interpretation, people interpret what they want to interpret. Imade's arguments are good but I'm neutral ...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Seriously?

Gin clearly says that the Bankai is neither as fast nor as long as he previously claimed.

There's no room for interpretation here.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So Aizen simply got much slower in his drag form than his base, is that what you're saying?

 

[Zzsax]

I really don't see how mach 500 make Gin "more powerful" in a universe of lightning timers lol where is that coming from

 

[KazuiK]

There are no facts, only interpretations .....

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What I'm saying is that per his own statements, Gin's Bankai is not Mach 500. That's a lie. So we cannot apply Gin's speed to reach a value for Ichigo to then later apply it to the Soul King Palace feat.

Of course, we already can't because that's calc-stacking and the statement is about an average Shunpo, not Ichigo's.

The fact of the matter can be seem above, it makes no sense either narratively, logically, or contextually for Gin to mean anything else. By his own admission, he was lying when he said his Bankai was Mach 500. It's not that fast.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

If thats the case, Aizen's speed needs to drop in his second evolution key.

Average Shunpo takes a week, Ichigo took 9 hours.

The whole point of using KnY's speed was for a lowball on what the distance between SK palace and Seireitei is. True Shikai is casually lightning timing so him going full throttle for 9 hours gives us a much larger distance anyway.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Now that depends on how fast the average Shunpo is.

If it's Speed of Sound, then we have:

Mach 1 - 168 Hours

X - 9 Hours

With X being about Mach 18.6666667

This number varies depending on the value for the average Shunpo.

 

[Zzsax]

Now that depends on how fast the average Shunpo is.

If it's Speed of Sound, then we have:

Mach 1 - 168 Hours

X - 9 Hours

With X being about Mach 18.6666667

This number varies depending on the value for the average Shunpo.

Please can you not murder shunpo,there is no way average shunpo is mach 1,please revisit the definition of average and get back to us

 

[AnonymousBlank]

First, you don't know Kirinji meant the shunpo of the average shinigami, if anything it would be of captain level ones as they are actually a relevant measurement.

Second, you are ignoring the fact that Ichigo is a lightning timer. Why on earth would he be going mach 18.6 when he can go mach 286 at the minimum?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Second, you are ignoring the fact that Ichigo is a lightning timer. Why on earth would he be going mach 18.6 when he can go mach 286 at the minimum?

Why on Earth would a character have a feat not as fast as their rating on this website? Why indeed.

It is simple: Characters don't abide by feats, they abide by the story.

Yes, you can quantify Ichigo as a lightning-timer based on Candice's feat. But that doesn't mean every feat he'll perform within the story will be MHS+. Specially when you're calculating feats, the results can be widely varied. A character with MFTL+ feats can in a story or chapter struggle to perform a Supersonic feat. It does happen.

Rather than go about this feat the backwards way, starting with Ichigo, you should start with the average Shunpo.

If this feat turns out to not be that great, that's fine! You have plenty others to scale Ichigo's Speed Rating from.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

The value of which we don't know. What we do know however, is the absolute lowball of True Shikai Ichigo's speed which he is definitely using since he is trying to stop an invasion.

EDIT: Here is fun translation of your logic.

x+1=2

Damn it, if only we could use basic algebra.

 

[Zzsax]

What I'm saying is that per his own statements, Gin's Bankai is not Mach 500. That's a lie. So we cannot apply Gin's speed to reach a value for Ichigo to then later apply it to the Soul King Palace feat.

Of course, we already can't because that's calc-stacking and the statement is about an average Shunpo, not Ichigo's.

The fact of the matter can be seem above, it makes no sense either narratively, logically, or contextually for Gin to mean anything else. By his own admission, he was lying when he said his Bankai was Mach 500. It's not that fast.

Gin is a pathological liar,you realized that and you established it at the base of your argument.which is why it'd be nice to go to an official place where Gin can't lie, Enter databook which you shoot down as false for no reason.choosing to believe instead in the statement of the proclaimed liar(by you) Gin.is that about right.


It all comes down to this,and I said this like 50 comments ago. Do you believe the databook is canon? If you don't,am afraid the debate is going nowhere,thsts the only confirmation we have,the other being the statement of a pathological liar.

 

[Hoshino~Aya]

We are not using the term average shunpo,it's not consistent with the story and can easily be disregarded, instead we should use ichigo's speed to get the distance, using the average speed of shunpo isn't consistent because since you guys are saying it's supersonic speed that would mean ichigo's full speed is supersonic, which is wrong as ichigo has shown to blitz lightening casually, so i suggest we use ichigo's speed as he said he was going at full speed,and arrived at 9h and 15m making the 7days and base shunpo speed inconsistent

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

1) Gin said he lied to Aizen, we don't know what he told Aizen.

• For some reason, some say "If he lied to Aizen, why would he tell the truth to Ichigo there where Aizen could hear them?" I don't understand that response given that Aizen was fighting Isshin in another part of the city. You can see Aizen use Raikoho here and then Ichigo and Gin are shown conversing much further away. With the buildings to scale with, the distance between the two groups was pretty far.

2) Databook UNMASKED reiterates Gin's numbers as truth multiple times as we've discussed here several times already.

3) The databook 13 Blades gave the real secret to Gin's Bankai: "Õü¢ÒéèÚÜáÒüùþÂÜÒüæÒüƒþ£ƒÒü«Þâ¢ÕèøÒÇé ÚòÀÒüÅÕ╗ÂÒü│Òü¬ÒüæÒéîÒü░Þ┐àÒüÅÒééÕ╗ÂÒü│Òü¬ÒüäÒÇé þîøµ»ÆÒéÆÕåàÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÕêâÒüîõ©Çþ×¼ÕíÁÒü½Òü¬ÒéïÒüáÒüæÒÇé"

From 13 Blades

• Translation: "The true ability that was secretly kept hidden. If it does not extend long it does not extend quickly. For an instant, the poisonous blade becomes dust.

It does extend long and it does extend quickly, the issue is Gin has to go full distance for full speed (which he does thanks to UNMASKED's entry on Gin always going for full distance).

The obvious conclusion is that whatever Gin told Aizen, that was a lie. Which is of course true, Gin had been lying to Aizen all this time. But Gin had no reason to lie to Ichigo nor tell Ichigo the exact same lie. Especially cause Gin never said that the numbers he told Ichigo were a lie, he said that what he told Aizen was a lie. Two databooks afterwards both support Gin's number and don't state them as lies.


But this really should be it's own CRT.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No Zzsax. Gin is indeed a lier, and in this case he readily admits the lie he said. To deny it is to suggest that he lied about lying, which is silly at best, and wishful thinking at worse. In this case the evidence in the actual text overwrites the databook. Because the databook is posting a statement which we know is false.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1) I have already addressed that Gin's lie to Aizen being something else makes absolutely no sense from a narrative perspective:

I'm not, I'm being a reasonable thinking human being. When we are shown Gin admitting to have lied about his Bankai, it is obvious that the lie is his previous statement about it's speed and length.

Nobody would ever assume it is anything else. Nothing in the narrative hints at it being anything else, nor would it make any sense for it to be anything else. We have on statement about the Bankai's speed and length, and another scene with Gin saying he lied about the speed and length.

This ain't rocket science. It's 1 + 1 = 2.

You are literally the only people I ever encountered who constructed this bizarre interpretation that the lie wasn't the statement that we - the audience - actually saw and read, but another, elusive and unknowable statement that wasn't shown at all anywhere. Thus effectively rendering the scene absolutely pointless from a narrative standpoint...

Of course it isn't that. Gin is saying that the statement about his Bankai was a lie. The statement he previously made to Ichigo, as we the readers have seen it previously. Only someone who actively wants Gin to be Mach 500 to make him more powerful in a website would interpret otherwise.

2) Again, the Databook reiterating what we know to be a lie in the actual manga is irrelevant.

3) This Databook in fact validates my side of the argument, so I have no idea why you're using it?

"The true ability that was secretly kept hidden. If it does not extend long it does not extend quickly. For an instant, the poisonous blade becomes dust."

Which is what Gin said to Aizen. It isn't as fast nor as long as he claimed it was.

How fast and long? He told that lie to Ichigo as well.

The assumption you propose relies on him making an even bigger lie that is higher than Mach 500 and however many miles it was.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

1) That in itself doesn't follow Gin's character and what we are told of the Bankai. Gin's character is that he's a chronic liar to others and never telling a truth unless serious. It makes sense that he gives different numbers to different characters.

2) It's the databook clarifying something we are confused about since Gin said he lied to Aizen and not Ichigo. Meaning it's not set in stone that what he told Ichigo was false, thankfully the databook clarifies for us.

3) This does not validate your side of the argument. Gin told Aizen that it's not as fast nor as long as he said. 13 Blades states that Gin's Bankai won't extend long unless Gin extends quickly. Thus in order for it to be Mach 500 and Mach 1000, it has to go the full distance of 13km that Gin told Ichigo and that UNMASKED reiterated as the right numbers.

 

[Zzsax]

No Zzsax. Gin is indeed a lier, and in this case he readily admits the lie he said. To deny it is to suggest that he lied about lying, which is silly at best, and wishful thinking at worse. In this case the evidence in the actual text overwrites the databook. Because the databook is posting a statement which we know is false.

Am not necessarily saying he lied about the lie,all am saying is Gin statements is a mess and all you and I have are assumptions and differing opinions till.... Oh look official databook

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1) It can make sense for his character, yes. But it doesn't make sense from a narrative standpoint for the lie to be another. Think of this issue from a meta sense for a moment. What purpose would the statement serve narratively if it isn't informing the reader in regards to the previous statement they read about?

2) If the Databook can be trusted in this case. And it is contradicted by the actual story given Gin's statement,

3) It does? It again reiterates that is neither as fast nor as long as he said it was. How fast and long he said? Mach 500 and 13 Kilometers. Neither is true.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We are not using the term average shunpo,it's not consistent with the story and can easily be disregarded, instead we should use ichigo's speed to get the distance, using the average speed of shunpo isn't consistent because since you guys are saying it's supersonic speed that would mean ichigo's full speed is supersonic, which is wrong as ichigo has shown to blitz lightening casually, so i suggest we use ichigo's speed as he said he was going at full speed,and arrived at 9h and 15m making the 7days and base shunpo speed inconsistent

I am not even sure what you're arguing with this case. It's not inconsistent, it's just a feat that turns out ain't that great as you thought.

We know it takes a whole week for an average shunpo. Thus we have a set base value. From there we can get the distance and also how fast Ichigo was travelling when it took him 9 hours. That it doesn't match MHS+ isn't something to be concerned, as the storyline of Bleach wasn't written with calculations and battle boards in mind.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

1) That's the thing, it's not a narrative stand point referring back to Ichigo. Gin doesn't even show a flashback going to when he gave Ichigo the numbers. We already know Gin has been lying to Aizen all this time, and we know Gin was secretly on Ichigo's side. Gin even tries to determine Ichigo's resolve if he can really kill Aizen. It makes sense for Gin to have told Aizen something else, and we have support that he told Ichigo the truth while whatever he told Aizen is not, and we don't know what he told Aizen.

2) Except it's not contradicted since we don't know the lie he told Aizen. You are assuming that the lie he told Aizen was what he had told Ichigo. But that's an assumption that can't be proven. With the databook we are told that what Gin told Ichigo was truth, so we can no determine that he told Aizen something else.

3) Matthew, that text does not say "it's not fast nor as long". That text literally says "It's not fast unless it goes full length" So it's fast if it goes full length.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Matthew, you do realise that what you say makes lightning in Bleach hypersonic right? Something we all can agree is completely wrong. Using Mach 1 for shunpo is much the same as we don't have an average shunpo speed. You can't just lowball it (and everything else in the verse) into the ground because you refuse to use basic algebra.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1) There not being a flashback to when he spoke to Ichigo is simply the narrative treating the audience with intellectual honesty. It assumes that we'll remember the past statement and put 2 and 2 together. Gin lying to Aizen all the time and then confirming that he was lying simply lines with what's been going in the story. From a narrative standpoint what he told to Aizen is more than likely the same thing he told Ichigo.

2) It's not really an assumption, it's just going by what is see and are told in the story.

3) In that case, then it still doesn't scale to Ichigo. If it can only reach Mach 500 by extending to full length, that indicates a clear degree of acceleration, with the blade needing to continually extend to 13 kilometers to reach Mach 500. It didn't extend that long when Ichigo fought him so he doesn't scale to Mach 500.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Matthew, you do realise that what you say makes lightning in Bleach hypersonic right? Something we all can agree is completely wrong. Using Mach 1 for shunpo is much the same as we don't have an average shunpo speed. You can't just lowball it (and everything else in the verse) into the ground because you refuse to use basic algebra.

I'm not refusing to use basic algebra, in this case it is you who's doing just that.

Ichigo having MHS+ feats / scaling does not give Kubo the obligation to write Ichigo as MHS+ in every scene. Rather, Kubo couldn't care less how fast Ichigo is. Which is why in this feat he's not that fast. It's so simple to understand, really.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

1) From Gin's character, what he told Aizen more likely is not what he told Ichigo. Gin never belittled Ichigo, but he was testing Ichigo to see if Ichigo had it in him to fight against a monster like Aizen, plus Gin was secretly on Ichigo's side. Gin was always against Aizen, thus why it makes sense that what he told Aizen was different and a lie.

2) That is the definition of an assumption since you are goin by info due to the lack of clear proof.

3) I already addressed part of this in my first comment. We are told in Databook UNMASKED that Gin was going for full 13 km distance against Ichigo. It doesn't accelerate from what we are told, the whole extension is that fast so long as Gin goes for distance.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

1) How can you be so sure of that? And again, from a narrative standpoint it is far more likely and logical that what he told Aizen is what he told Ichigo. Or else the statement serves no point otherwise.

2) Going by what we can see and read in a manga is just being reasonable.

3) I definitely implies that. If it can only reach Mach 500 by extending to 13 km it's because it needs 13 km to accelerate to Mach 500.

 

[Hoshino~Aya]

Matthew, you do realise that what you say makes lightning in Bleach hypersonic right? Something we all can agree is completely wrong. Using Mach 1 for shunpo is much the same as we don't have an average shunpo speed. You can't just lowball it (and everything else in the verse) into the ground because you refuse to use basic algebra.

I'm not refusing to use basic algebra, in this case it is you who's doing just that.
Ichigo having MHS+ feats / scaling does not give Kubo the obligation to write Ichigo as MHS+ in every scene. Rather, Kubo couldn't care less how fast Ichigo is. Which is why in this feat he's not that fast. It's so simple to understand, really.

>except you are ignoring the context of ichigo saying he was using his full speed in base to get there,

Imagine saying his full speed is mach 1 when he has shown to blitz lightening in the story line,does that look consistent to you.

>you assuming mach 1 speed for ichigo's full speed or the storyline showing that ichigo is capable of moving faster than lightening casually

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Okay. Lets walk through this one more time.

1. Ichigo was rushing to get to Seireitei.

2. Ichigo makes it there in 9 hours and 15 minutes.

3. Right after he arrives, he casually dodges lightning.

Assuming its only as fast as the downward stroke, we can know that he was going at least mach 286. The whole "Ichigo is 18.16x faster than average shunpo" you brought up means (according to the Ichigo LE max speed) average shunpo would be mach 15.7, Hypersonic+. Never has shunpo been stated to be Mach 1 in Bleach nor has it ever been calc'd to be that. Earliest instances we can calc for it has been from SS arc lieutenants in the Hypersonic+ range. Oh would you look at that, these numbers are actually adding up.

You are just assigning it a number and refusing to accept what is right in front of your face.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Hoshino~Aya

I'm not assuming Ichigo is Mach 1. I'm simply calculating how fast Ichigo is in that feat. That it doesn't line up with his other feats of speed is simple inconsistency.

 

[Zzsax]

I'm not refusing to use basic algebra, in this case it is you who's doing just that.

Ichigo having MHS+ feats / scaling does not give Kubo the obligation to write Ichigo as MHS+ in every scene. Rather, Kubo couldn't care less how fast Ichigo is. Which is why in this feat he's not that fast. It's so simple to understand, really.

I don't know why the "as fast as I can" "hurry like hell " whatever the translation you read,i really can't fathom why that phrase still keeps going out the window.

When a MHS+ character goes as fast as he can,he goes hypersonic at worst. Author does care about numbers as he is throwing around mach figures for us to play with,so I think kubo had a good sense of ichigo shunpo speeds at that point and used it to visualize the tremendous SK To SS distance for us

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

1) I am sure of it because that is the truth. Gin was on Ichigo's side and had been against Aizen for over a century. When Gin was fighting Ichigo, he would lecture Ichigo on his resolve. When Gin was dying he said that Ichigo finally had the resolve to face against someone like Aizen. With the databook entries, I am further sure of it.

2) But that's an assumption that you can't prove due to the vagueness of Gin. We aren't told nor shown that what he told Ichigo is what he told Aizen. The only things we are given are databook statements saying that what he told Ichigo was truth.

3) We are told that it extends at Mach 500. This implies the whole time it is Mach 500. The speed of extension and contraction are the same per Gin's words and Ichigo's analysis. It contracts in singular panels due to speed, despite having gone the full distance thanks to UNMASKED entry. With 13 Blades entry, we know that this is only true if it goes full distance. So it's always going that fast due to UNMASKED entry that confirms it's going full distance.

If it went a shorter distance, it's not accelerating, it's going at a lower speed for the whole extension.

 

[Hoshino~Aya]

@matthew


~~Em what you are doing is calc staking, which is wrong.


>Again you are literally making made up numbers which isn't literally consistent with the story line and and is involving head cannons.


~~so which do we take now,your own suggestion which involved calc or the cannon speed

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'll reply in a few.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can we please take the calc-stacking stuff to a different thread? Because that stuff affects more than just bleach and is more of a rule argument than a bleach one specifically.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Can we please take the calc-stacking stuff to a different thread? Because that stuff affects more than just bleach and is more of a rule argument than a bleach one specifically.

I agree with this, which is why I stopped after your first statement regarding this. This is a larger issue than just Bleach and should be it's own highlighted thread since it affects many verses.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Anyone know staff currently online? We should probably close this before it starts up again.