Gin Ichimaru's Bankai Ability - Buto Renjin.

[Qawsedf234]

It would only scale to people Ichigo fought with the Mask on. Which is a lot admittedly.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Ichigo dodged that even without his mask. And I imagine it'd scale to pretty much every stronger captain.

It'd scale to Byakuya for obvious reasons. It'd scale to Zaraki for being comparable to Byakuya. It'd scale to Zommari for being comparable to Byakuya in speed. It'd scale to Sui-Feng as she is a Shunpo master and can keep up with Yoruichi (who proved to be faster than Byakuya). It'd scale to Hitsugaya for keeping up with Harribel.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I don't see why we can't use databook info when it presents hard numbers instead of mere hyperbole.
Also...

If Gin's Bankai really is Mach 1000 and Ichigo dodged that shit from just several metres away, could we perhaps use that to get a proper speed rating for pre time skip characters?

I've been secretly working on that for a while, you have thwarted my plans.

I was able to get the Mach 1000 for another battleboard through UNMASKED and 13 Blades Databook. It helped for figuring out solid Pre-Time Skip speed and even helped get a solid number for the distance from Soul Palace and Seireitei for those that scale to that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Did he dodge without the mask on? Guess I don't remember the scene as well as I thought.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

He dodges Buto Renjin with the mask.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

He dodges Buto Renjin with the mask.

I went and saw chapter 404 (which is where this shit happens).

1. Ichigo dodged Buto without Hollow mask.

2. Ichigo is fast enough to pull his hand up to his face, summon his Hollow mask, then dodge the Buto Renjin attack which was already on its way toward him. That is actually more impressive than merely outright dodging that attack without doing anything else.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Makes sense that Ichigo needs his mask to move physically faster to dodge something twice as fast. He was dodging Buto and the regular Kamishini no Yari, but he was visibly struggling and even barely dodging as it would graze him.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I agree with the upgrade since there's nothing contradicting it, unlike the normal Bankai multipliers.

As for the speed of the pre-timeskip characters, I honestly think it's okay. Normal Sternritter are not any faster than pre-timeskip Captains. People like Yama-jii, Ukitake, etc don't get any faster or stronger. Your average Sternritter who is MHS+ isn't faster than them, not to talk about something ridiculous such as blitzing them. Arrancar could keep up with a weakened Bambi too (and maybe Giselle? I don't really remember). The only problem is that there's roundabout scaling, which is understandable since the characters are so many.

Concerning Gin's Bankai, it's too controversial and they banned the topic after many discussions about Ichigo vs Buto. In my opinion, we don't even need it as they should logically scale to MHS+.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Since there was no objection, I believe Gin's Bankai speed doubling and increasing by a factor of 10 with Buto Renjin can be added now after knowledgeable staff members agreement?

@Burning

I understand it's banned and that's a bridge I'll have to cross when I can fully properly learn how to format on a CRT. But the main reason I wish to do it is because it is a canon number that can be used in other calcs. It wouldn't be calc stacking and it would solve some "palace to Seireitei" distance issues that have been a thorn on the side of Bleach Revisions for 4 years. But that's all for another Admin approved CRT.

Edit: Wait would Ichigo dodging the double speed now scale to several other characters? Is that what you're saying, Burning?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Yeah.

Ok. Though, how do you figure it can be used to determine the distance between Seireitei and the SKP?

Nah, I was saying we don't need it since the Candice feat is higher. But if Ichigo vs Buto is accepted, wouldn't it be lower than MHS+? Given that Buto Renjin is baseline MHS+ and Ichigo reacted from a distance, it'd probably be lower than MHS+. But I don't know how to calc, so I can't say for sure.

Maybe Soldier can calc it.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Candice's lightning is higher, especially since we are now accepting the novels and it iterates how Candice's lightning even when nerfed is superior to lightning. However, that acceptance is very recent.

Ichigo with his Mask was able to react to Buto Renjin. Yet Aizen at base was able to move FTE to Ichigo with his Mask. Then as we all know, Aizen undergoes 4 massive power ups, yet Dangai Ichigo was superior to him in all stats. True Shikai is as powerful as Dangai Ichigo, so the lowest lowball you could possibly give for True Shikai Ichigo's travel speed would be Buto Renjin's speed.

Using the 9 hour and 15 minute time frame from the clock tower in Wandenreich, you can determine a more accurate distance between Seireitei and SKP. It's the lowest lowball since we'd be assuming that Aizen never got faster from base, but it's a way to get a more accurate distance.

If we can use Candice's lightning in translation to True Shikai Ichigo's travel speed, then we could do that as well to determine the distance.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

You propose using Mach 500 or 1000 for Ichigo travelling from Soul Palace to Seireitei?

The shitstorm potential there is high. It's very high.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Since the odds of it happening are so high, we should just use his lightning timing instead XD. The thread will be hilarious.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's calc stacking. Nevermind that using that speed would wield that the Soul King Palace should be at a distance from the ground comparable to or higher than the freaking moon. And yet there's still an atmosphere and clouds around it.

 

[AstralKing7]

wouldnt using lightning speed bring up the same problem with using lightnign speed for Ay in calcs

 

[Qawsedf234]

In A's case the translation was wrong and didn't actually imply that he was as fast as lightning iirc.

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Soldier Blue's judgement concerning Bleach.

 

[AstralKing7]

its not the translation problem. His is way faster than lightning but we couldnt use lightning speed for a basis for his speed

 

[Qawsedf234]

Isn't A's speed from power scaling to a fan calc? In that case yeah we couldn't use his speed. But using in-universe numbers aren't calc-stacking. That's why the Sub-Rel Minato calc needed to use the databook since it gave A a in-universe number to measure from.

 

[AstralKing7]

Candice doesnt have a calc for her speed tho right but instead it just says she is faster than normal lightning

its pretty much just the same situation

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If you use Mach 1,000 for eight hours you'd get the distance from Seireitei and the Soul King Palace as almost the distance from Earth to Mars. I don't think I need to explain how completely absurd, and incongruent with the actual visuals and what the story implies that is.

At that point it's less about whether or not a speed can be utilized based on standards for calc stacking, but more about basic common sense. The Soul King Palace isn't located in outer space.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But in Candice's case she has in-universe text that says her lightning is faster than normal lightning, while A has nothing comparable statement wise. So with her a calc would just use actual numbers to scale from, while anything with A would be calc of another calc.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

A is scaled above MS sasuke who scales to his jutsu kirin, which is cloud to ground lightning.

 

[AstralKing7]

^this

but not EMS only MS

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Made the changes.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

@Soldier

I don't propose Mach 500, I propose 1000. And I understand the potential shitstorm, but I care more about being accurate.

@Matt

Good thing Seireitei isn't on Earth and is it's own dimension of Soul Society. There is also no visuals that show SKP and Seireitei. We know they are far from each other, but that is all.

What's calc stacking here also? Using Ichigo's speed derived from Candice's lightning that is faster than real lightning or Ichigo's speed derived from Gin's Bankai which has a canon number? It doesn't seem calc stacking since it's not applying a calc on another.

I also don't know why A and Naruto is being discussed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So scaling from Kirin is fine, but A is scaled to Sasuke who scales to a previous version of Sasuke who dodged Kirin, which is why the Minato calc needed to use the databook. In Candice's case her lightning is described at a certain speed and Gin's bankai is given two hard numbers.

 

[AstralKing7]

^because its obviously the same situation when Sasuke's lightning in verse was stated to be the same real lightning which Ay is faster than

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Even if Seireitei isn't Earth, basic logic and assumptions still apply. Specially since the dimension functions almost exactly like Earth does, and is in fact a parallel to it. It is illogical for the Soul King Palace to be that high up, and the fact that it still has an atmosphere and the presence of clouds goes 180 degrees against the notion that it is as high in space as the moon, or almost another planet.

Gin's Bankai's canon number is a lie. I know the Databook states it is Mach 500 but Gin himself says it isn't.

Using Ichigo's speed derived from Gin's bankai and then applying it to this feat is calc-stacking.

Using Ichigo's speed based on another character's attack and then applying it to this feat is also calc-stacking.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The page on Calc Stacking. A and Minato's thing would fall under the first or second example, since the only speed factor we know about is A. In Ichigo's case it would be scaling from the mach 1,000 number or the statement about Candice's lightning to the 9 hours and 15 minutes number.

If A had even a minimum non-calced speed then the Minato calc probably would've made it through.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Even if Seireitei isn't Earth, basic logic and assumptions still apply. Specially since the dimension functions almost exactly like Earth does, and is in fact a parallel to it. It is illogical for the Soul King Palace to be that high up, and the fact that it still has an atmosphere and the presence of clouds goes 180 degrees against the notion that it is as high in space as the moon, or almost another planet.

Soul Society isn't a planet though, so your basis falls apart there. You can't equate Earth to Soul Society when Soul Society is a different dimension. It's even stated that the Royal Palace is in another dimensions separated from Soul Society by 72 barriers. You can physically travel to it if the barriers are open or if you have the Oken. Also The minimum distance from Earth to Mars is apparently 54.6 million kilometers. Mach 1000 for eight hours is 9.88 million kilometers.

Gin's Bankai's canon number is a lie. I know the Databook states it is Mach 500 but Gin himself says it isn't.

I'll get to that bridge when I get to it. That's another CRT, not this one.

Using Ichigo's speed derived from Gin's bankai and then applying it to this feat is calc-stacking.
Using Ichigo's speed based on another character's attack and then applying it to this feat is also calc-stacking.

That's not true. Per our page on Calc Stacking, this does not qualify since we are not stacking two calcs on each other. We would be using a canon number given to us to make a calc. There would only be one calc involved.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Why the hell are we discussing Naruto here? Just stop. That can do no good here. It can only lead to something bad.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

You guys should take the Naruto issue to another thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Soul Society is literally parallel to the Human World, which is Earth, so of course we can compare it to Earth specially when everything about how life works in Soul Society is relatively similar to Earth. I also find bizarre that you are pushing for this argument now, when you have outright stated to use irl earth averages for the size of cities and mountains in Soul Society in the past.

The Soul King palace is located beneath the atmosphere, the sky is still blue there and there's clouds in the place. And the air is breathable. There's a moon in Soul Society, so it functioning like a normal planet isn't a leap in logic but a basic assumption.

And actually yes, it is calc-stacking. You are using a feat from another character to extrapolate Ichigo's speed, and then applying said speed to another feat. You are quite literally calc-stacking. That's the definition verbatum.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Yes, because Earth too has floating cities in the middle of nowhere. Face it, basic logic and nonsensical assumptions about distance don't apply anymore in a dimension which is completely sealed off and requires a specific key to enter/exit.

The page here doesn't support what you said though. Canon given numbers aren't fanmade calcs and should be perfectly fine unless people want to ignore the guidelines.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

I said the same thing, I don't know where Naruto came into this discussion.

 

[Damage3245]

What implies Ichigo can travel as fast as Gin's bankai can extend? Isn't it just his reactions that scale? I don't think Ichigo would react the way he did if he could easily move that fast.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Firstly, that is poisoning the well. My argument has nothing to do with whether or not Soul Society has fantastical elements to it (It does). That does not mean you can't apply reasonable logic to it.

Can we not assume Earth as an average for a planet in a science fiction setting if said planet has an atmosphere breathable to humans, a blue sky and plant life? Of course we can. Just because it's an alien planet doesn't mean we need to throw all logic off the roof. Same principle applies here, specially since Soul Society is parallel to Earth.

Also, fun fact: If you want to push the notion that the SK Palace is in another dimension, then you're admitting that the feat is unquantifiable.

Except said canon numbers are being used to extrapolate Ichigo's speed in one scene, and then you wish to apply that speed to another scene with a completely different context.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

What implies Ichigo can travel as fast as Gin's bankai can extend? Isn't it just his reactions that scale? I don't think Ichigo would react the way he did if he could easily move that fast.

This is another very basic thing people aren't considering. Using Ichigo's reactions to apply to his flying speed in another scene.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

What implies Ichigo can travel as fast as Gin's bankai can extend? Isn't it just his reactions that scale? I don't think Ichigo would react the way he did if he could easily move that fast.

It's cause base Aizen goes FTE to the Ichigo that reacted to it. Then Dangai Ichigo is faster than Aizen after Aizen underwent 4 power ups.

Soul Society is literally parallel to the Human World, which is Earth, so of course we can compare it to Earth specially when everything about how life works in Soul Society is relatively similar to Earth.

This is incorrect. The Real World pertains to the universe where Earth resides. Soul Society is other side of the same coin as the Real World.

Soul Society is a dimension, Earth is part of the Real World. Then there is Hueco Mundo which is also part of this fest and that's a place of eternal night and nothing more.

You can't equate a dimension that acts different from Earth to Earth.

I also find bizarre that you are pushing for this argument now, when you have outright stated to use irl earth averages for the size of cities and mountains in Soul Society in the past.

That was using average to find a safe size of something that couldn't be determined otherwise. This is different because it can be determined in distance. Also, I was equating a city to a city in that statement. I won't be equating a planet to a dimension, that's fallacious.

And actually yes, it is calc-stacking. You are using a feat from another character to extrapolate Ichigo's speed, and then applying said speed to another feat. You are quite literally calc-stacking. That's the definition verbatum.

That is not Calc Stacking per our definitions.

We are not stacking two calcs onto each other. We are using a canon number and applying it to make a single calc. There's only calc in question at the end.