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ripSoldier Blue said:You propose using Mach 500 or 1000 for Ichigo travelling from Soul Palace to Seireitei?
The shitstorm potential there is high. It's very high.
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Gin Ichimaru's Bankai Ability - Buto Renjin.
- Thread starter IMadeThisOn8-1-2017
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For the calc stacking bit, I suggest a staff-only thread (with some normal users if they themselves want to) to discuss whether using in-canon numbers and not fan made calculations from calcs for other feats would be calc-stacking or not calc stacking and see what the majority thinks regarding this.
Because going back and forth in this thread won't do anything at all.
Because going back and forth in this thread won't do anything at all.
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Matthew Schroeder said:
Yes it obeys those laws obviously,but it gets fantastical(thank you by the way have been rummaging for that word) and breaks a lot of laws,hueco mundo part of the same parallels,is stuck in a constant night, why?maybe there is no axis rotation?i don't know how but law of physics got broken on a large scale there.then there are seas in the sky at SS and breathable oxygen , what the hell happened to gravity?
An object travelling at even mach 1 for minutes Will leave lower earth orbit and start venturing to space vacuum .but SS begs to differ as there are cities and seas at that point in space,physics is just not consistent and the bars of "ridiculous" are raised.i hope you get my point.
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Cool, but by mere observation we can deduce that they are located on a planet. As I keep telling you repeatedly.
With the SK Palace's existence, we can tell that's not true. We even know it's a dimension and are told so. You're basing it being a planet on the sun and moon.
Good thing I'm talking about where Seireitei is.
What. Literally what. The SK Palace is directly above Seireitei.
What is so bad about this? Just because a character is canonically that fast in one scene does not allow us to apply that speed to every scene. This is basic, no?
Because Ichigo was purposefully going full speed in the scene in question. With his stamina and endurance feats, we know he could do it for 9 hours.
You keep using the word canon, but you don't understand how calculations work. Just because a character dodges a bullet in one scene doesn't mean we can apply that speed to every single scene.
I could understand characters not going their full speed all the time. Superman and such does this a lot. However, with the scene in particular with Ichigo, he was going full speed due to the invasion having occurred 3 hours earlier and he wanted to save everyone and by his conversation with Tenjiro.
You can think it isn't Calc Stacking, IMade, but it absolutely is.
There's a reason using Lightning-speed for this feat was never accepted in the wiki before you were around.
I dunno about the lightning speed stuff that occurred here. I never used it nor know about it to speak on it.
However, Kukui is right. This is a back and forth argument that is best delegated elsewhere since it's an argument of rules.
With the SK Palace's existence, we can tell that's not true. We even know it's a dimension and are told so. You're basing it being a planet on the sun and moon.
Good thing I'm talking about where Seireitei is.
What. Literally what. The SK Palace is directly above Seireitei.
What is so bad about this? Just because a character is canonically that fast in one scene does not allow us to apply that speed to every scene. This is basic, no?
Because Ichigo was purposefully going full speed in the scene in question. With his stamina and endurance feats, we know he could do it for 9 hours.
You keep using the word canon, but you don't understand how calculations work. Just because a character dodges a bullet in one scene doesn't mean we can apply that speed to every single scene.
I could understand characters not going their full speed all the time. Superman and such does this a lot. However, with the scene in particular with Ichigo, he was going full speed due to the invasion having occurred 3 hours earlier and he wanted to save everyone and by his conversation with Tenjiro.
You can think it isn't Calc Stacking, IMade, but it absolutely is.
There's a reason using Lightning-speed for this feat was never accepted in the wiki before you were around.
I dunno about the lightning speed stuff that occurred here. I never used it nor know about it to speak on it.
However, Kukui is right. This is a back and forth argument that is best delegated elsewhere since it's an argument of rules.
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There is a bit of a misconception regarding the Travelling from SK palace to SS. They were not refering to "Ichigo's Regular Shunpo", there were talking about the average shunpo speed in general.
Granted, it can be argued they are refering to his "Regular Shunpo", I believe contextually it's refering to Shunpo In General, not Ichigo's.
Worse Case Scenario, the feat is just unquantifiable.
Not that Ichigo Free Falling is him is him using "Shunpo" in the first place.
Granted, it can be argued they are refering to his "Regular Shunpo", I believe contextually it's refering to Shunpo In General, not Ichigo's.
Worse Case Scenario, the feat is just unquantifiable.
Not that Ichigo Free Falling is him is him using "Shunpo" in the first place.
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Yeah I agree it's referring to baseline Shunpo.
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Just dropping this Ichigo was going as fast he could,and reduced the 7days journey to 9 hours using his shunpo.he left with a blast and Landed with a blast,coming down like a rocket with no signs of slowing down.mach 500 or 1000 may even be a potential lowball.again ridiculous but facts
@FTO
Regular shunpo would have taken a week,ichigo top tier shunpo however makes him make it in 9 hours.
@FTO
Regular shunpo would have taken a week,ichigo top tier shunpo however makes him make it in 9 hours.
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There's no baseline Shunpo is the thing. Characters all have different base speeds and their amps of speed through Shunpo can be different as well. You can change your own Shunpo's speed as well, a casual or serious Shunpo. A serious Shunpo for Shunsui would be when he escaped Yamamoto's Reiatsu with one Shunpo, but in fights with Starrk and Lille he does short couple meters to couple dozen meter jumps.
Contextually, I see it as Tenjiro saying a regular Shunpo for him, which is also unquantifiable really since all we know about him is he's faster than Sui-Feng.
Contextually, I see it as Tenjiro saying a regular Shunpo for him, which is also unquantifiable really since all we know about him is he's faster than Sui-Feng.
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True, but Ichigo wasn't using "Shunpo". I mean, it's irrelevant, but Shunpo is defined as Getting from Point A to B in the least amount of Steps. Ichigo wasn't stepping, just increasing his falling speed (Low Key Flying, but still).Zzsax said:
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Baseline Shunpo is at least Supersonic.
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Is this going to be discussed in a different thread or did you guys reach a conclusion?
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@IMADE
You can only get an "Average" or "Regular" rating in these instances after taking data from multiple sources and deriving an "Average" from it.
In this case, we don't the "Average" Shunpo because everyone who uses Shunpo has been an Above Average Shinihami since SS Arc. Ichigo upon learning Shunpo was trained to an extent he could casually Blitz Lieutenants. This is above average. We don't know how many of the 5000 shinigami can use Shunpo nor how many of them that can and to what degree, but they would constitute the "Average", not the Captain Cless which Iirc is less than 30-40 members.
You can only get an "Average" or "Regular" rating in these instances after taking data from multiple sources and deriving an "Average" from it.
In this case, we don't the "Average" Shunpo because everyone who uses Shunpo has been an Above Average Shinihami since SS Arc. Ichigo upon learning Shunpo was trained to an extent he could casually Blitz Lieutenants. This is above average. We don't know how many of the 5000 shinigami can use Shunpo nor how many of them that can and to what degree, but they would constitute the "Average", not the Captain Cless which Iirc is less than 30-40 members.
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Hence why I say that using Supersonic which is baseline for Shinigami is a decent solution. And is what is already done.
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True, but Ichigo wasn't using "Shunpo". I mean, it's irrelevant, but Shunpo is defined as Getting from Point A to B in the least amount of Steps. Ichigo wasn't stepping, just increasing his falling speed (Low Key Flying, but still).
Em You just,literally just posted a scan ichigo said he used shunpo to get there "as fast as he could"(why is this phrase being ignored).. there is a scan of his first shunpo step after his call with urahara where he released a sonic boom(or something like that),it's right there in the same chapter you pulled those scans,shunpo steps can be linked together e.g ichigo's bankai clones and can be used to travel,e.g youruichi's 100 step feat and royal guard statement
Em You just,literally just posted a scan ichigo said he used shunpo to get there "as fast as he could"(why is this phrase being ignored).. there is a scan of his first shunpo step after his call with urahara where he released a sonic boom(or something like that),it's right there in the same chapter you pulled those scans,shunpo steps can be linked together e.g ichigo's bankai clones and can be used to travel,e.g youruichi's 100 step feat and royal guard statement
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7 Days with normal shunpo seems hyperbolic to me tho... Or it's just looks like the author making it look impressive. We should use normal timeframe 9h and 15m to determine the distance. Ichigo said to he was going at full speed to get there... It won't make any sense for Ichigo who casually blitz Candice (who can react and catch natural lightening casually) to be using hypersonic to get there.
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I just want to say that all of this relies on the mach 500 speed being correct despite Gin saying that he lied about its speed. And stating it does not extends as fast or as far as he said.
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^I don't think that is the case. And it did extend a good portion of the area they were with
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What is not the case?Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
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Ichigo must obviously have been moving at MHS+ speed at the least. It's just that using that is regarded as calc stacking.
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From what I recall, Gin said he lied to Aizen about his Bankai's speed/length, not necessarily Ichigo. This is supported by the databook confirming the Mach 500 and stuff.
@Burning
Would it still be calc stacking since Candice's lightning is confirmed to be at least lightning speed though? It's not a calc, just a canon piece of information
@Burning
Would it still be calc stacking since Candice's lightning is confirmed to be at least lightning speed though? It's not a calc, just a canon piece of information
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That would make 0 sense from a story telling perspective. The audience knows what he told Ichigo, there would be no point of him saying that to Aizen if he was talking about different speeds. It is not like Aizen could not have heard what he told Ichigo. Using Occam's razor it would make the most sense to assume that he is talking about the speed he told Ichigo since the audience also knows it.Malikobama1 said:
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This just came to my mind. I'd like to know about it too. Though, it'd probably fall under the Shunpo issue being discussed.Malikobama1 said:
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I have heard this argument, but Gin lied to Ichigo as well. We know what he told to Ichigo, and later he admits to Aizen that he was lying about his Bankai's speed / length. He was lying because he was exaggerating himself.
It makes no sense from a narrative perspective to show Gin making a statement about his Bankai's speed and length, and then later show him admitting to Aizen that he lied about his Bankai's speed and length and have it not be about the lie we actually saw on-screen, but rather something completely different. Be real, Gin's statement to Aizen is there for the audience to learn that he lied to Ichigo.
It makes no sense from a narrative perspective to show Gin making a statement about his Bankai's speed and length, and then later show him admitting to Aizen that he lied about his Bankai's speed and length and have it not be about the lie we actually saw on-screen, but rather something completely different. Be real, Gin's statement to Aizen is there for the audience to learn that he lied to Ichigo.
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Yeah, there's really no reason to assume that Gin told completely different values to Aizen than what he told Ichigo.
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If databook says it's Mach 500, what's the issue with accepting it?
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There is a panel of Gin saying he lied about his Bankai to Aizen. Matthew, Rocker and Damage are arguing that he told Aizen and Ichigo the same things, a logical assumption but not explicitly stated and the databook contradicts it as well.
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If the databook statement is contradicted by what gin said, why are we still using the statement as evidence?
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The databook doesn't contradict Gin. It contradicts the assumption that Gin told Aizen and Ichigo the same speed and length of his Bankai.
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No, the Databook says that it is Mach 500 based on Gin's statement, but in the actual manga Gin admits that that's false. More logically, it is likely that the people who made the databook did a poor job.
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Except we don't know what Gin told Aizen and until we do, the databook and what he told Ichigo should be taken as fact.
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No we shouldn't.
Be real for a moment. What purpose would it serve the story to have Gin make a statement about his Bankai, and then later show him admitting to have lied about his Bankai if the lie is not the previous statement we the audience were shown.
Be real for a moment. What purpose would it serve the story to have Gin make a statement about his Bankai, and then later show him admitting to have lied about his Bankai if the lie is not the previous statement we the audience were shown.
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But right now we have two facts of a mach 500 .Gin statements .databook confirmation And one statement that may or may not be contradicting it, .Gin to aizen statement
Not to mention that ichigo told Gin that he was trying to downplay the speed by showing him the length.it makes no sensefor Gin to lie to ichigo.
I'll admits is a possibility cuz lying is like breathing to Gin, but right now it's 2 facts vs a shaky on e
Not to mention that ichigo told Gin that he was trying to downplay the speed by showing him the length.it makes no sensefor Gin to lie to ichigo.
I'll admits is a possibility cuz lying is like breathing to Gin, but right now it's 2 facts vs a shaky on e
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It's two statements against one, why would we not use them instead?
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It's not to against one. It's a lie and a clarification that it is a lie. The Databook is objectively wrong, and in this case should be ignored in favor of the actual text.
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And the actual text does not contradict either Gin's statement to Ichigo or the "objectively wrong" databook, so what is your point?
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The text does contradict Gin, by showing Gin admitting that he was lying about his Bankai.
Be reasonable for a moment. What is the purpose, from a narrative perspective, to depict Gin admitting to have lied about his Bankai's speed and length after he's already made a shocking statement about its speed and length?
The purpose is for the audience to learn that his previous statement was actually a lie. It is not a random line referring to a supposed another, unrelated claim that is the actual lie that the audience never reads about.
Be reasonable for a moment. What is the purpose, from a narrative perspective, to depict Gin admitting to have lied about his Bankai's speed and length after he's already made a shocking statement about its speed and length?
The purpose is for the audience to learn that his previous statement was actually a lie. It is not a random line referring to a supposed another, unrelated claim that is the actual lie that the audience never reads about.
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No it does not.
How would I know what narrative purpose Kubo had in mind? I'm not pyschic.
What you are trying to do, is argue the author's supposed intent, not what is in the material.
How would I know what narrative purpose Kubo had in mind? I'm not pyschic.
What you are trying to do, is argue the author's supposed intent, not what is in the material.
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The visuals don't corroborate either version. It's not 3 facts against 1, you are purposefully schewing things in your favor.Zzsax said:
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I'm not, I'm being a reasonable thinking human being. When we are shown Gin admitting to have lied about his Bankai, it is obvious that the lie is his previous statement about it's speed and length.AnonymousBlank said:
Nobody would ever assume it is anything else. Nothing in the narrative hints at it being anything else, nor would it make any sense for it to be anything else. We have on statement about the Bankai's speed and length, and another scene with Gin saying he lied about the speed and length.
This ain't rocket science. It's 1 + 1 = 2.
You are literally the only people I ever encountered who constructed this bizarre interpretation that the lie wasn't the statement that we - the audience - actually saw and read, but another, elusive and unknowable statement that wasn't shown at all anywhere. Thus effectively rendering the scene absolutely pointless from a narrative standpoint...
Of course it isn't that. Gin is saying that the statement about his Bankai was a lie. The statement he previously made to Ichigo, as we the readers have seen it previously. Only someone who actively wants Gin to be Mach 500 to make him more powerful in a website would interpret otherwise.
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