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GER's Willpower Manip

Chariot190 said:
>disregarding the novel because it aint canon.


Seems you missed the point completely. That novel, despite it's non-canonicity, showcased the will power manip in action. It doesnt matter if it's canon or not, it shos that said power isnt what you think it is, and no offense but no matter how non-canon it is, it is a billion times more reliable than whatever your intepretetion is. Non-canon or not, it shows that the will in the bio is literal, not figuratively like you may think and even if you disagree your intepretation is nothing when compared to official material despite how non-canon it is.
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Not really. The non-canon is not written by Araki at all. What they did to the willpower and many other things is nothing more than their plain interpretation. I do not see how the interpretation of some 3rd party completely unrelated to the original series with no connection to Araki somehow holds more weight than any other interpretation.

If i start a side-story to any verse in the wiki, that doesn't somehow make my opinion on info regarding the original series any more valuable than before nor more valuable than the rest.

The novel is non canon, the dude who wrote it is not the same guy therefore stop using those arguments. Might as well use some fan fiction version of Giorno to give him powers at this point because "it's the same character".
 
Lavcore said:
i agree with removing the power and adding the note(obviously) and also GER has a will of it's own.
Click to expand...
That's 4 agreements.

As for the note on Diavolo's profile it seems redunant. Seems similar to saying why X villain didn't use his best move off the bat to beat the opponent. He just didn't there could be a billion explanations for it. One off the top of my head is that since Diavolo's death became a fact (since the death effect was staying he was bound to die) then KC couldn't interfere. Or maybe since Diavolo died once then KC couldn't manifest etc.

I don't think we need a note on that, that could be anything from causality manip 0 resetting after KC was destroyed to plain PIS.

I am not against the note on Diavolo (if majority agree then sure), i am just not for it.
 
You missed his point,yes the novel is non canon and normally we should not follow it but it's still an official jojo material heck the cover of the novel was drawn by araki. The fact that its official means its wayyyyyyyyy more reliable than your head cannon. Go write a side story of giorno dating jolyne all you want,if its not an official jojo material then we dont give a crap
 
Official Jojo material that wasn't written by the author.

Moot point. We've had this kind of discussion for non cannon stuff before. Until proven canon any non canon material isn't taken into consideration. If you want that, you can make a Non Canon Giorno, i don't mind.
 
Lavcore said:
i agree with removing the power and adding the note(obviously) and also GER has a will of it's own.
Click to expand...
Yes it has a will of its own but it's still giorno's stand and gio is it's master. Plus requiem stands have like 1 job,bites the dust(a pseudo requiem) to hide kira's identity,chariot requiem to hold onto the arrow and ger to absolutely murder diavolo so that giorno can become passione's new boss. It will absolutely follow gio's wishes
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Official Jojo material that wasn't written by the author.

Moot point. We've had this kind of discussion for non cannon stuff before. Until proven canon any non canon material isn't taken into consideration. If you want that, you can make a Non Canon Giorno, i don't mind.
Click to expand...
Lets wait till this thread is complete. If canon ger doesnt have willpower M then a composite gio profile is needed. Chariot said novel gio's feats are too few to consider making a composite profile,if willpower M is taken out of canon ger's power then i dont see why a composite gio profile cant be added
 
>Composite profiles

Idk if you're even serious.

1. Composite profiles stopped existing

2. "Hey we couldn't give canon GER novel powers, so how about we actually combine both so that we only have 1 GER but he has both powers". No. It's either gonna be 2 profiles or 1 profile with 2 keys Canon/Novel (idk if that's allowed, but it's probably better to be 2 profiles because that's how all novel profiles are).
 
I meant having a gio profile that has both canon and novel feats. Kinda like HADIO having all of the canon dio's power. My bad
 
Willpower manip alone definitly isn't enough to warrant a profile, and you don't put keys for non-canon spin-off on a profile... ever.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Willpower manip alone definitly isn't enough to warrant a profile, and you don't put keys for non-canon spin-off on a profile... ever.
Click to expand...
Yes, but that doesn't excuse giving novel feats to normal giorno because "it's the same character and it was used in non canon".
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Willpower manip alone definitly isn't enough to warrant a profile, and you don't put keys for non-canon spin-off on a profile... ever.
Click to expand...
Novel ger also has bfr.gio can bfr himself or his enemy
 
I cant tell if I'm being messed with or everyone is really this dense.

It being non-canon doesnt matter, what matters, and here's the main point, is that the will in it's cano bio and guidebook was showcased to be, in fact, literally talking about one's will.

It being non-canon doesnt matter or even effects the topic at hand, what matters to the conversation is that the will, in the cano bio was shown to be literally willpower in another source.

Which is a **** to more reliable then any of your intepretations on the subjct, because really? THat's all it is, none of you have any more credence then the novel, stop acting like you do. The difference between you writing some fanfiction and the novel, is unlike you, the novel is official, licensed and even had artwork done by Araki for it.

Now maybe I'm not making it clear enough, in the manga the description can be taken either way, saying he does could be right but saying he doesnt could be right as well, it's vague, but given the context that outside material confirms what type of will it is talking about superceedes any and all of your opinions on the subject matter because like it or not, the novel means a lot more than any of your intepretations. And it being non-canon aint gonna change that anytime soon.
 
The interpretation of another author with no relation to the original series don't make it more reliable than other interpretation.

It's like saying Suggs' interpretation on GetBackers holds more weight than our interpretation on it.
 
Ok so dense it is then.

You missed the point were the novel is official, licensed, and even had some affiliation with Araki himself.

Maybe you just arent getting it but yes, that author is more reliable then you, get over it.
 
Also stop with the false analogies, Suggs sure as hell aint official in any capacity. Has Suggs even communicated with the original author of GetBackers?
 
>Some affiliation

>Made the cover.

It being official doesn't mean anything, same for licenced and everything else.

Medaka Box Abnormal was licenced, official, part of Kumagawa Gaiden which is written by Nisio etc etc, yet we did not accept that info until we found proof that it was written by Nisio. This is no different. As my Medaka Box experience says, no matter how important sth is, if it is not written by the author himself it's as good as non existent.
 
More than that if the other two novels in VS. JoJo are anything to go off of.

Look, gonna be real honest with ya, stop with the Medaka Box examples, you got a issue with that? Take it elsewhere. This aint a Medaka Box thread and I'm pretty sure I said stop it with the false analogies.

We arent using the novel for brand new information, new powers, new or unique anything. The only thing that matters is that in the novel, in GER's scene, the will, described in both JoJoveller and the Manga (both canon sources written by Araki) was shown to be, in fact, relating to one's will as in willpower. This isnt a matter of ******* taking everything in the novel and applying it canon, it's looking at other official sources for confirmation on a somewhat vague wording that is cano. But it either seems you dont get it or are actually being serious and at that point, dont know what to tell you other than despite how much we may or may not like, nobody is more reliable or word's have more meaning than than the novel's clearance nor are we gonna get an actual conclusion to this thread because nobody is right because it can be either if we're looking at one word in a literal vacuum.
 
Zel97 said:
I meant having a gio profile that has both canon and novel feats. Kinda like HADIO having all of the canon dio's power. My bad
Click to expand...
HA DIO has canon DIO's powers because he's just an evolved form of him who reached heaven. If you want a novel Giorno profile, make one, it actually sounds like a good idea given GER's power is way more explicit on JORGER JOESTAR.
 
And there's 5, in disagreement if I counted correctly.

The only noteworthy thing is GER having it's own intellect, but that was already brought up in another thread.
 
@Chariot

Why are you using my MB examples as "issues"? Im just saying how it's treated from previous experiences. I never said i disagree with that, nor that i have an issue with it. It's just how we treat stuff, GER ain't getting special treatment.
 
Because that aint the first time youve brought up Medaka Box in this thread, and I usualy see you do it in other threads as well, you clearly have some isues with it and how things are handled, so take it up elsewhere.

GER isnt getting special treatment because the power in question is cano, mentioned in two, if not three sources written by Araki, it's just not shown.

Yet it is shown in the novel, taking away any confusion on what it could or could not mean.

Big difference than using the novel for what you think it's being used for.
 
Again i don't have issues. Im saying "how things have been treated other times" to say "how this should be treated".

It's not used in canon, it is mentioned in a guidebook with as much shadyness and lack of context as possible. That doesn't make it good enough to add to profiles with what we know. With what was said in canon about it we can't put it in the profiles cus it's not clear on what it means.
 
Well given how in every other thread you call back to how Medaka Box was treated, fair mistake on my end.

Wrong, the setting wills to zero is both mentioned in a guidebook (written entirely by Araki) and the manga itself. And that's it, there's no lack of context, there's no shadiness either. It's pretty explicit, It can set the attackers actions and will to 0, it may not have been used in action, but the statement itself isnt vague at all and comes from an unbiased, reliable source on both accounts.

It's actually really straightforward, the issue comes in when you decide to, instead of taking it at face value like every other Stand Bio in existence is meant to be taken, decide you want to single out that one word in that entire bio and decide it's being used figuratively instead of literally like everything else. Well lucky you, if we take a look at the novel, it shows what it's supposed to be, willpower.

The only real issue here is the mental olympics going on to try and insinuate that a pretty clear cut sentence doesnt mean what it means.
 
Hell, on the note of Stand Bios being taken literally, the bio would have used the word intentions, not will if Araki was going for the route that half of you are thinking it meant. The Stand Bios are not meant to be vague, it's supposed to be a clear cut explanation on what the ability does and can do.

Triforce is right on the account of what the Bio means.
 
I said before why the statement is vague, "will to 0" can just mean actions that are dependent on will.

There is also no context on how long it continues, if it continues at all etc etc.

For all of these you're trying to use a non canon source. The willpower hax was never used and never got any detail so it can't be used.
 
The statement isn't vague since we know what RtZ does and how it works thanks to how it's shown in the manga. The only difference is that we've been shown GER reverting actions, and it's later said in the stand bio/description/what-I-posted-above that he can do thr same thing to will.

...Why would that even matter? If he can will hax, we write it on his page, nothing more, nothing less.
 
Ok so we're just gonna go around in circles then?

>"will to 0" can just mean actions that are dependent on will.

Wrong, actually kinda blatantly at that, in the very same sentence the Bio differentiates between will and actions. They're two seperate things in the context of what GER can do. set the attacker's actions and will to 0.All actions are dependent on will, but actions and will arent the same thing in the bio, ergo the will in question is unrelated to actions.

How long doesnt matter, all that matters is if he can, that's the point of the thread. That can be taken up elsewhere.

Yeah, you're goodamn right I'm using a non-canon source, a non-canon source that, despite it's non-canonicity, shows GER utilzing it. It isnt a unique power to the novel, all it is, and hopefully you stop with your mental gymnastics, is showing what GER could already do in the manga but in action. Manga and Guide written by Araki both say GER can set will to 0 but doesnt show it, novel shows it and shows that it is indeed willpower to 0. Not hard to grasp is it? You keep grasping at the fact that it aint non-canon so it doesnt count, but that's where youre wrong, the power is canon, just that the scene isnt but the scene showcases the canon power, which denotes the ambiguity on the subject.

And we dont need to be shown it, a statement is good enough, wog statements are used all the time, if it says GER can set wills to 0 then he can, the fact that a novel shows it to mean exactly what everyone thought it meant is just evidence to you being in the wrong.
 
Actually given the only enemy GER fought in canon had a thought based action ability, and earlier in the thread people were so keen on saying that the bio had to be referring to the Diavolo fight. Well I'm just gonna say double standards now.

Not that it matters because there's enough evidence and enough unambiguity on it that dictates no, it doesnt mean what youre thinking.

And I'm going to point out again, Stand Descriptions arent like this, they arent vague, theyre always meant to be explicit and taken at face value. I dont think you realize this but youre actually arguing for the least likely option if we take it in a vacuum. Occams Razer exists and all for a good reason.
 
And that evidence is?

And are you seriously implying descriptions can never cause misunderstandings and using that as an argument to interpret the will power the way you want?.... in the verse where the it just works became a meme....?
 
Earl, honestly, that description literally couldn't be clearer. King Crimson is an exception for the most part (D4C's introduction was more confusing but his powers were later retconnected into something more understandable), and every stand bio is pretty straightforward, even Diavolo's. The confusion mostly came from how the power seemingly contradicted itself as the story went on.

54D095DA-2F3D-4BE2-9504-59DDAD69362C
If even KC, the most confusing stand of the series (at least anime-wise) has such a clear description, I don't get why GER's should be now suddenly metaphorical
 
Not really metaphorical. It just means that much is left to the imagination and interpretation as it has no explanation on what will means in this case nor how it works.

I mean freaking hell he used rtz normally and half the wiki can't agree to inf speed and passive ger."In a freaking feat" there is room for interpretation and a lot of it at that. Saying "there is no room for interpretation in a single word with 0 context, explanation, elaboration or feat really doesn't cut it.

And even if we agreed on him having the power, the mechanics, time limit, exact applications etc are all unknown. That's why people are agreeing with my proposal to simply add a note about it.
 
About the time limit of willpower M if it's accepted,im pretty sure its not permanent but ger can just constantly reset the enemy's willpower to 0 since it has at the very least low 2-c range


Most ger incon matches are

"Ger lolnopes him for eternity but cant actually kill him"


I dont see why willpower M is a 1 time thing since it is still done via rtz same with causality reset
 
Dont matter, youre using a fallacy in regards to the second point.

We arent talking about RTZ, we're talking about if he has will power manip or not, everything else is completely irrelevant, it has zero bearing on the current topic. What matters is if he does or doesnt, how good it is, what it can do, etc doesnt matter atm, what matters is if he can or cant. And saying oh the wiki cant agree on this so clearly this falls under the same thing!, is, to be honest, complete bullshit.

If GER is stated to have it, then by WOG, even if it isnt shown (in canon at least, we see how it works in other things), then he has it. The wiki is meant to profile character abilities, stats and powers, if he has it he has it, the details only matter if youre thinking on the matter of vs debating, and honestly? That doesnt effect what is or isnt on the profile, vs debating comes after the fact, not before what is on the profile.
 
No, what's bullshit is

The explanation is completely and utterly clear and there is no room for other interpretations so my interpretation is the correct one and no other possibilities exist.

And using this as justification to add a power based on a single word without context or explanation.

The reason i used RTZ is because you're saying "stand descriptions are correct and allow no misunderstandings no matter what". Im saying, an actual feat that has a stand description allows room for interpretation, but you're somehow arguing a single word in there allows no room for it. Seriously a single word so contextless and unexplained is not gonna add powers.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
>Some affiliation

>Made the cover.

It being official doesn't mean anything, same for licenced and everything else.

Medaka Box Abnormal was licenced, official, part of Kumagawa Gaiden which is written by Nisio etc etc, yet we did not accept that info until we found proof that it was written by Nisio. This is no different. As my Medaka Box experience says, no matter how important sth is, if it is not written by the author himself it's as good as non existent.
Click to expand...
To respond to this and other bad comparisons you've made.

Medaka Box Abnormal was licensed, official, and part of Good Loser Kumagawa Gaiden (which we didn't have much info about at the time), and wasn't used because we thought it wasn't written by Nisio. But what wasn't used from it, specifically? A feat from the episode, showing a new application of the ability that was never implied, hinted at, or described in any canon material/guidebooks. This is disanalagous to the JJBA novels showing Giorno's willpower manip that was described in canon material (with a single word) but now shown in canon material.

You've also said "This is just like taking Suggs' interpretation of GetBackers over the series!" No. A random dude on the internet is very different to a friend of the author who created some officially licensed but non-canon material.

I'm not sure how we've treated canonicity issues like this in the past, but I do know that the analogies you've presented in this thread haven't been accurate.
 
Agnaa

This is similar because the mechanics of the willmanip are trying to be taken from the non canon novel.

Also we also disagreed to take the universal range for All Fiction even though it was hinted at it several times.
 
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