• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

GER's Willpower Manip

This is similar because the mechanics of the willmanip are trying to be taken from the non canon novel.

Are they? I only saw people saying "The canon material says there's will manip, and the non-canon novel shows that there's will manip, so there's will manip", I haven't seen suggestions to take the mechanics of it from the novel. Removing it and leaving a note that we don't know what it does seems fine, I'm just pointing out bad argumentation.

Also we also disagreed to take the universal range for All Fiction even though it was hinted at it several times.

All Fiction was "likely" Universal" before he got concept manip back (i.e. before that episode was taken as canon). So again, not a very good analogy.
 
The reason people are mostly agreeing with me is because im not denying that the will thing exists, im saying it is very vague and we don't even know what it does let alone how it works, how long it lasts etc. The reason i brought up the medaka case is because the argument Chariot made was "well it was used in the novel" so basically getting feats from the non canon novel to justify the mechanics and capabiltiies of the ability.

Actually it wasn't iirc it was only universal because ppl forgot to downgrade it after it was deemed non canon. There was no other universal range feat in the manga and the "world" thing was as you know deemed not enough.
 
And I agree with that point of view.

I think "Non-canon material shows an application of an ability not shown in the canon material" and "Non-canon material shows an application of an ability briefly hinted at in the canon material" are different things, even if they both eventually get rejected.

I was curious about that point too, but when I checked the profile, it was "Likely universal" up until it got edited to add concept manip and just flat "Universal".
 
Nice cherry picking.

You missed the point where

1. Stand Descriptions dont allow for intepretation. It's meant to be cut and dry, literal explanations of the power or powers at hand, in fact the reason why Stand stats and descriptions exist in the first place, according to Araki, is because readers had trouble getting used to Stands so he wanted to make it extremely easy to understand and get points acros with zero issue. There is no figuratively and if it was figurative, it would make it clear that the meaning isnt literal. Hell Stand Stats sometimes point out things that have absolutely zero bearing in the story or shown at all, so it not being showcased means nothing, stand descriptions are in depth, JoJoveller descriptions even moreso, and setting wills to 0 is in both.

2. What we see is not 100% correlated to the Stand description, we know that sometimes Stand Bios do exist where something is stated in the bio but isnt shown in action, an example of this would be Green, Green Grass of Home being able to erase someone's existence, we never see it but we know it can do so if something enters the horizon line as the description explains that it can. Thus no, GER's feat in the manga and the fact it's claimed to have will power manip dont need to be the same thing in question. The Stand Description can, and often will make a point of something that may not be shown in action on top of the existing power, in fact it's often why it's made a point of, because it didnt get a chance to be seen.

3. Like it or not but we actually do get to see the will power in action in the novel, of course it isnt sufficient evidence on its own and if JoJoveller and the Description didnt exist it'd be 100% non-canon and completely impossible to use yet as a means to support that yes, the will in question is will power, well then that's more than fair enough given all it is doing is confirming what the manga/guide says to be true.

4. Your points on time limit, mechanics, etc have zero bearing to if he does or doesnt have it, everything points towards him having it, even outside material. First and foremost this wiki documents what characters can do, if he can then it's listed regardless of how good or even bad it is in function.

>Also we also disagreed to take the universal range for All Fiction even though it was hinted at it several times.

Sounds like a personal issue to me, and a false analogy, and also a genetic fallacy. Kinda what I meant when I said it sounds like you have some sort of issue with how Medaka Box is treated, you're kinda making it obvious no offense. If it is heavily implied to to be universal then make a thread for it, hell if the implication is good enough or obvious enough I'll throw you my vote. Also >hinted at.

This aint hinted at though, it's said explicitly that it can. The only issue is if it's literal or not and given what's been said so far, it honestly aint. It has will power manip, ergo it is to be listed, if a note exists it can be mentioned that the exact mechanics of it are vague within the source material but the fact that he has it should and will, as per wiki standards, be listed as that is the wiki's first and highest priority.

And >most people agree with me.

Actually so far it's split 50/50, exactly, if I counted right. Maybe slightly lopsided with Agnaa now, but most? That's being dishonest.

"Non-canon material shows an application of an ability not shown in the canon material"

Agnaa, it's actually

Non-canon material shows an ability stated, but not shown, in the canon material.

It isnt that will power manip is from the novel or showing an application of that ability that is unique to the novel, it's that the manga says there's will power manip, and the novel simply confirms yeah it's will power manip with zero contradiction. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Chariot190 said:
"Non-canon material shows an application of an ability not shown in the canon material"

Agnaa, it's actually

Non-canon material shows an ability stated, but not shown, in the canon material.

It isnt that will power manip is from the novel or showing an application of that ability that is unique to the novel, it's that the manga says there's will power manip, and the novel simply confirms yeah it's will power manip with zero contradiction. Nothing more, nothing less.
Click to expand...
My bad if it was unclear, that part you're quoting is what Earl was framing it as, and I disagreed with that framing. I said that the proper framing is "Non-canon material shows an application of an ability briefly hinted at in the canon material". Again, my mistake for the confusion.
 
Eh, it's fine. It's ******* late (it's like 4am) so that's probably a mistake on my end so my bad. But I still wouldnt say an ability hinted at in canon. It isnt hinted at, it's explicitly said it exists, the issue comes in on what will means exactly, and the novel shows that it is will power in question. While not sufficient on it's own, it's non contradictory and only exists as confirmation on a canon claim.

Also according to Triforce it's meant to be literal in the japanese stad bio description anyway. I aint exactly fluent so I cant say anything on that but if he's right then that's further evidence.
 
what ******* shitstorm went on over here while i was away?


@Chariot

the novel wasn't written by araki and using a non-canon novel not even written by araki which he barely had any affiliation with as proof is in my opinion a big no-no and calling people dense because they don't want to use the interpretation by someone who isn't araki just because it's licensed matieral is not okay and did you just ignore SP's profile in part 6 which is like the opposite of literal and disproves your claim that ALL stand profiles are meant to be clear cut and not figurative AT ALL?.

@earl

can you please stop making comparsions to medaka if the comparison isn't valid?
 
Nice rebuttal, actually, clearly you cant be serious? Did you even bother reading half of anything of what was said? I sure hope not, because at least then you'd have an excuse, if not then opinon discarded, especially if you cant even formulate an actual rebuttal worth my, or anyone's time for that matter.

Which Star Platinum Bio you talking about? There.s two in Part 6. If you mean Where he's called the most invincible Stand? Unfortunately no, Araki actually seems to think that, he's called it that and explained in interviews how Star Platinum is unbeatable and has been routinely calling it the strongest unbeatable stand in interviews for decades. That isnt the bio not meaning to be taken literally, it's simply araki not understanding that SP aint the hottest shit and he's created stronger and more powerful stands. That isnt the bio not meant to be taken literally, it's a case of authoral stupidity.
 
What are the summarised conclusions here, and which staff members agree with which positions?
 
TL;DR people had problems with GER's willpower manip. So i proposed removing the power and adding a note saying:

WoG states GER can reset will to 0, however the exact meaning, capabilities, mechanics and all other details are unknown due to lacking context and use of the ability in canon.

There are 6 or 7 agreements with this proposal. And 3 people who do not agree. I believe no staff members have given input yet with the exception of Eficiente who agrees with the OP and I think he agrees with the proposal.

@Eficiente quote me if i am wrong here.
 
Plus all people agreed with adding the note of GER death loop (he need to kill) to the profile, it is arleady accepeted so it is just an addition.
 
wait so it means nothing that his willpower man was stated in stand bio and guide books and confirmed by araki so then besides giorno a lot of profiles need adjustments

thats all im saying
 
Don't be dishonest now. There is literally just as many users disagreeing with the removal then there is agreeing. There is no conclusion, it's quite literally split 50/50.
 
Greenshifter said:
I also disagree with removing willpower, the note can also be added without removing the power.
Click to expand...
Basically this. If we're looking at the power in a vacuum then this here is the only sufficient way as neither are wrong.
 
Chariot190 said:
Don't be dishonest now. There is literally just as many users disagreeing with the removal then there is agreeing. There is no conclusion, it's quite literally split 50/50.
Click to expand...
Wait, can you name them? I may have lost count along the way.
 
Greenshifter said:
I also disagree with removing willpower, the note can also be added without removing the power.
Click to expand...
Would adding a "likely" or "possibly" before Willpower Manipulation, combined with such a note be an acceptable compromise solution?
 
Chariot190 said:
Greenshifter said:
I also disagree with removing willpower, the note can also be added without removing the power.
Click to expand...
Basically this. If we're looking at the power in a vacuum then this here is the only sufficient way as neither are wrong.
Click to expand...
Yes but that can be misleading in terms of use in versus debates. The note is there to say that "there is this mention but it's unclear", adding the power you're saying "it exists". Which is what we're arguing. You can't just say "it exists" off of a random word on the page.

@Antvasima

Could agree with that.
 
Me, Triforce, Sadistic, Greenshifter, Giovanna, TheUser, DRW00 and I think Zel.

That's 8.

Also dont think likely or possibility is that truthful, it isnt implied or hinted at. It's outright said on paper Can set will to 0. The issue is the mechanics of it I guess, we know he has it and that he can do it, it's the how and the potency we do not if looking only at the manga.
 
My only requirement is that we add the note. I don't care if we leave the ability on, make it likely/possibly, or remove it.
 
Chariot190 said:
Also dont think likely or possibility is that truthful, it isnt implied or hinted at. It's outright said on paper Can set will to 0. The issue is the mechanics of it I guess, we know he has it and that he can do it, it's the how and the potency we do not if looking only at the manga.
Click to expand...
As i said we do not even know if it is referring to actual willpower. That's the issue.
 
>Yes but that can be misleading in terms of use in versus debates. The note is there to say that "there is this mention but it's unclear", adding the power you're saying "it exists". Which is what we're arguing. You can't just say "it exists" off of a random word on the page.

And there it is, I thought we already went through the fact that versus debates have absolutely no bearing on the profile? The profiles are meant to catalog the stats and abilities frst and foremost, if he has it then he has it, thinking oh well it's gonna be confusing for matches, means nothing, the matches arent a priority or the main priority of the wiki. You've literally just confirmed what I've suspecting all along, you're thinking in perspective of vs matches, not actually listing what he can or can not do.

And we've already gone through how it does indeed exist, both me and Triforce, hell Triforce even whipped out the original raws.

It is stated, quite simply, it can effect will power, nothing more, nothing less, it may not have been shown but it is stated by an unbiased, reliable, wog source in its debut. Powers via statements are fine and applied all the time.
 
>As i said we do not even know if it is referring to actual willpower. That's the issue.

You're backpedaling now, just last night you were saying that isnt the issue and that we just dont know the mechanics of it.

This is getting extremely tiresome, you cant even be consistent within your own claims. Like it or not it's stated he has it, everything points towards it being literal, it's shown in outside material to be literally effecting one's capability to want to do something, it's mentioned in both the manga and JoJoveller, the canon guide written entirely by araki and is used to this day, the japanese scans claim he has it, etc.

There is no maybe or if, it's stated, plain as can be on paper, whether you like it or not isnt relevant.
 
I have no qualms with adding a note, but removing a power he has I am most certainly not ok with.
 
@Ant I think likely is fine to account for the unlikely scenario that will is being used figuratively and that the novel writer interpreted it in the wrong way.
 
Can i know what's happening here?

And before anyone says something about removing Willpower Manipulation,it's said by word-of-god that it can influence willpower and there's nothing contradicting it unlike Tusk infinite damage

(Which i still not okay with but who am i,am i right?)
 
Eh, even excluding the novel, I think it's kinda blatant. There's only an issue of it being figurative if one actively thinks it's supposed to be figurative, which is odd given stand bios dont do that, nothing else in GER's bio is like that, and in JoJoveller (which is written by araki), nothing in it is figurative despite saying that it can set will to 0 in that as well.
 
SupremeGilgamesh said:
Can i know what's happening here?

And before anyone says something about removing Willpower Manipulation,it's said by word-of-god that it can influence willpower and there's nothing contradicting it unlike Tusk infinite damage

(Which i still not okay with but who am i,am i right?)
Click to expand...
The issue is that we don't know how it works, just that he has it.
 
SupremeGilgamesh said:
...?

She reverses will to zero
Click to expand...
What does that mean? How long does it last for? Under what situations is it used in-character?
 
Okay i put a example

Let's pick a opponent...like Kai the Collector from KFP

Let's say he has done seven actions and from the start to the finish of this actions,his will is 480 okay?

Now!GER begins her reversal which reverts this actions and put his will to zero

That means now he won't want to do this actions anymore
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

DRW001
  • Locked
GER - Non-existent interaction and Pseudo NEP (Nature Type 1, Aspect Types 1, 3 and 5) (staff votes pls)
2
Replies
64
Views
5K
DRW001
DRW001
  • Locked
How'd he get over there man? A CRT for GER's Infinite Speed.
2 3 4
Replies
135
Views
8K
Damage3245
Damage3245
DRW001
  • Locked
Giorno Profile Rework
Replies
30
Views
3K
Emirp sumitpo
Emirp sumitpo
StrymULTRA
  • Locked
The CRT that goes Over Heaven: A Low 2-C + Infinite speed Heaven DIO CRT
2
Replies
60
Views
5K
StrymULTRA
StrymULTRA
FundamentalForce
  • Locked
Jojo's Bizarre Cosmology [Part 1/???]
Replies
39
Views
2K
Animus-sama
Animus-sama
Back
Top