GERs Speed is outdated

[Chariot190]

It does tbh, GER wanted to show to Diavolo how his actions will never happen, nothing else, the whole speech done after the RtZ activation proves it.

Yes, he shows him his actions will never happen, but he cant show him a fake future or a fake made up fate.
That vision for all intents and purposes WAS going to happen, and it would have happened exactly as we see it if not for RTZ kicking Diavolo in the dick and saying sike bitch.
You're right in that GER made a point to show Diavolo that his actions hold no meaning and he won't reach "reality", but that's in reference to RTZ basically saying no future for you, opposed to the vision itself being something that wasn't going to happen, outside of RTZ.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

No, ASB has RTZ having a gray like circle where anyone nearby it gets nulled its not passive or anything

When Pucci obtains MIH all move in slow motion, Giorno with GER moves as if nothing happened, as long as GER form doesnt run out, its not cuz of the ability

 

[Chariot190]

No, ASB has RTZ having a gray like circle where anyone nearby it gets nulled its not passive or anything

When Pucci obtains MIH all move in slow motion, Giorno with GER moves as if nothing happened, as long as GER form doesnt run out

Dude, Giorno himself is uneffected by it too, not just GER. You wanna argue that Giorno himself has the same speed as his Stand?
Exactly, as soon as GER goes away, Giorno is back to being effected too. Because the reason why was due to RTZ saying no (Ignoring RTZ behaves differently in ASB so it can work in the form of a fighting game). case and point, RTZ in the game being portrayed as a counter move with a gray circle aoe, which is CLEARLYnot how it works in canon, not even a slight resemblance.

The notion is right, in that GER>MIH, but the reason why differs drastically in everything that interaction exists, and in this case is because of nulling for ASB.
And hell, the reason why GER>MIH in the novel is different from even that, in that case that one actually IS due to physical speed, but he's getting his own profile later anyway due to being fundamentally different to canon.

I said all this way earlier in the thread, I brought these up.

Also I dont think you realize, as long as the epitaph vision exists, this argument is null, because we KNOW he isnt infinite, the reasons he could have scaled to it are rendered invalid and it's just RTZ scaling, you can say this or that, and while in a vacuum they are good points, the epitaph feat basically says no while also, unfortunately, said reasons arent actually enough on their own to say it's wrong. The only absolute here is that RTZ at least is infinite, that's the singular absolute with the evidence we have.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

And epitaph vision doesnt deny infinite speed, fate will be manipulated for the win to him no matter what, unless you got a power which can counter it

Whitesnake had only for speed and thats it, rest is the physicals and staying isnt for the ability, else SP in part 4 with 2 seconds having A yet SP in part 6 with 5 seconds has E makes no sense

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, he shows him his actions will never happen, but he cant show him a fake future or a fake made up fate.
That vision for all intents and purposes WAS going to happen, and it would have happened exactly as we see it if not for RTZ kicking Diavolo in the dick and saying sike bitch.
You're right in that GER made a point to show Diavolo that his actions hold no meaning and he won't reach "reality", but that's in reference to RTZ basically saying no future for you, opposed to the vision itself being something that wasn't going to happen, outside of RTZ.

Simple, GER resists Fate, nothing else.

Him being superior to MiH in speed in base is even proved from both effortlessly blitzing Diavolo more times and from the fact that he was casual af the whole time.

Him getting both Resista to Fate Hax due to be able to oppose his pre-written one + infinite speed in base is supported from both Manga and Databook.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Its a game which can do only so much to portray a series in the form of gameplay, so giorno moving with him doesnt debunk it at all, afaik you cant independently control the stand and not the user, even with stand out, they still have both perform basic stuff unless its something specific to the stand

 

[Chariot190]

And epitaph vision doesnt deny infinite speed, fate will be manipulated for the win to him no matter what, unless you got a power which can counter it

Whitesnake had only for speed and thats it, rest is the physicals and staying isnt for the ability, else SP in part 4 with 2 seconds having A yet SP in part 6 with 5 seconds has E makes no sense

It does, I explained why, this isnt really difficult to understand. And yes, in case you missed it, we're about to argue for his ass to have fate resistance (and some peopel have been meaning to do so for like over a year now) so that excuse gets thrown out the window, because him being bound by fate no longer applies, he simply wasnt fast enough.

Do you want a comprehensive list of every stand that has had stats for themselves as well as their ability in the same sheet? Because it's WAY more then Whitesnake. Whitesnake is just the most blatant example because Hirohiko Araki has sat down and explained that in depth with like a full two paragraphs of explanation and confirmation.

SP in Part 4 doesn't have an A, Stand stats came into existence in Part 5, the only SP with any stats are Part 3 (given in post) and Part 6 early and end. Part 6 SP's stat change was changed due to him needing a cooldown for timestop lasting several seconds and the ability itself lasting for a small amount of time (5 seconds a pop).

 

[Chariot190]

Its a game which can do only so much to portray a series in the form of gameplay, so giorno moving with him doesnt debunk it at all, afaik you cant independently control the stand and not the user, even with stand out, they still have both perform basic stuff unless its something specific to the stand

It actually does dude, also you really useing ******* ALL STAR BATTLE as your main argument now? Like come the **** on. You want to even bring that up? Then actually use what we see and treat it as it is, don't start inserting a bunch of hypotheticals in play here to suit your argument. The game isn't main canon, it's based on it, but only so far as people at bandai taking their own interpretations on things and trying to make a cool fighter out of that. the notion of GER>MIH is correct, but the why is wrong and the way it plays out isnt the way youre acting like it is, made even worse as your other example you used is a complete 180 of the ASB example, your examples lowkey contradict each other.

Simple, GER resists Fate, nothing else.

And if he did then just means he wasn't fast enough to defend.

Him being superior to MiH in speed in base is even proved from both effortlessly blitzing Diavolo more times and from the fact that he was casual af the whole time.

Did you just say him blitzing a MFTL is proof of him being superior to something literally infinitely above that? That's, not how it works, casual or not. Him blitzing a MFTL will NEVER be Infinite by itself, there needs to be actual supporting evidence, and there is, but said evidence is a 50/50 at best in proving him itself to be infinite and then couple that with an actual example of him not being infinite and then 50/50 becomes a 0 and we know what it refers to now.

Him getting both Resista to Fate Hax due to be able to oppose his pre-written one + infinite speed in base is supported from both Manga and Databook.

It isnt, I'm LOOKING at guide book right, I looked through the scans, I even went through the original japanse manga to see what's said exactly in reference to every single interaction. It's not supported, it's made extremely dubious by the manga and the guides dont clarify.
Not how it works, like it or not, GER was going to be tagged by King Crimson, yes he's way ******* faster, but a Hypersonic+ character can still be hit by a bullet if the bullet started off literally touching them from behind as a surprise, hell, you ever read Flashpoint? That's an example and it's not even as bad as this one but the notion still stands. The infinite base speed is directly CONTRADICTED by the manga and the guidebook just says SOMETHING is infinite, it doesn't say specify and given we know that RTZ>GER and can even act when he can't, and that speed can and has referred to ability speed, why is this even an argument?

The only argument that actually needs to be made is why the Epitaph scene doesnt count, all this other shit doesn't matter, I'd wager to say it's even objectively wrong, and just an fyi, if we give him fate resistance, the only argument I cant think of to say otherwise fails to work. You can't have it both ways here.
Best case scenario is, even if we ignore Epitaph's scene, there's only a 50/50 he scales anyway as said, the scaling doesn't even clarify if it's explicitly his physical speed so best case scenario it's a coin flip, but due to the existence of RTZ outright reacting to something GER couldnt, and seemingly without consent all the while GER has a anti-feat that isn't contradicted by higher feats (because blitzing a dude aint a contradiction to it), I'm inclined to say that, it's likely RTZ being referred to. We went over this early on in the thread, idk why we doing it again.

Best I can do is toss out the planned fate resistance and say at best it's a 50/50, but thinking on it, I'd rather deal with things we know for certain rather then assumptions and guesswork.

 

[Damage3245]

Just as there are feats of GER being superior to Diavolo/KC, there are also some feats of Diavolo/KC being able to keep up with GER to some extent.

1) Although GER's attack was FTE to Diavolo, he could still slightly dodge it thanks to his precog. If GER's attack was infinite speed, Diavolo would not be able to slightly dodge it.

2) Diavolo can percieve GER's movements in erased time. If GER was moving infinitely fast, Diavolo should not be able to even percieve GER here.

3) Diavolo foresees himself being just slightly faster and being able to pierce Giorno. Epitaph isn't just going to show Diavolo something that is impossible physically. He can't see himself blowing the planet with a punch for example and then force it to happen due to fate hax.

We've gone over some of this already, I just wanted to reiterate these points for why I think we shouldn't say GER is infinitely fast physically.

Should GER still be rated superior to Diavolo overall? Yes, I think so, but not infinitely superior to him.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Did you just say him blitzing a MFTL is proof of him being superior to something literally infinitely above that? That's, not how it works, casual or not. Him blitzing a MFTL will NEVER be Infinite by itself, there needs to be actual supporting evidence, and there is, but said evidence is a 50/50 at best in proving him itself to be infinite and then couple that with an actual example of him not being infinite and then 50/50 becomes a 0 and we know what it refers to now.

Nice strawmanning, I said that is a S U P P O R T I V E feat for his Infinite speed, not that is Infinite Speed from just it

The only argument that actually needs to be made is why the Epitaph scene doesnt count, and just an fyi, if we give him fate resistance, the only argument I cant think of to say otherwise fails to work. You can't have it both ways here.

We perfectly can, since GER was ******* casual all the time, do you expect a character one-shotting the opponent if it wanted to toy with it?

Just as there are feats of GER being superior to Diavolo/KC, there are also some feats of Diavolo/KC being able to keep up with GER to some extent.

1) Although GER's attack was FTE to Diavolo, he could still slightly dodge it thanks to his precog. If GER's attack was infinite speed, Diavolo would not be able to slightly dodge it.

2) Diavolo can percieve GER's movements in erased time. If GER was moving infinitely fast, Diavolo should not be able to even percieve GER here.

3) Diavolo foresees himself being just slightly faster and being able to pierce Giorno. Epitaph isn't just going to show Diavolo something that is impossible physically. He can't see himself blowing the planet with a punch for example and then force it to happen due to fate hax.

We've gone over some of this already, I just wanted to reiterate these points for why I think we shouldn't say GER is infinitely fast physically.

Should GER still be rated superior to Diavolo overall? Yes, I think so, but not infinitely superior to him.

Still doesen't debunk GER being casual until he blitzed Diavolo in the last 2 MUDA Rushes.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

@Chariot190

You have become the very thing you swore to destroy. You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the GER lowball to infinite speed, not join them. You were to bring balance to the jojo verse, not leave it in the downplay.

 

[Damage3245]

Still doesen't debunk GER being casual until he blitzed Diavolo in the last 2 MUDA Rushes.

You mean this? It's hard to say that this even qualifies as a blitz seeing as Diavolo cannot move.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You mean this? It's hard to say that this even qualifies as a blitz seeing as Diavolo cannot move.

Nothing stated that Diavolo couldn't move, GER didn't show paralysis related powers whatsoever

 

[Chariot190]

Nice strawmanning, I said that is a S U P P O R T I V E feat for his Infinite speed, not that is Infinite Speed from just it

"Him being superior to MiH in speed in base is even proved from both effortlessly blitzing Diavolo more times and from the fact that he was casual af the whole time."
No you didn't? That sentence is worded as an absolute.

We perfectly can, since GER was ******* casual all the time, do you expect a character one-shotting the opponent if it wanted to toy with it?

And Star Platinum is FTE to some super fast ************* and can oneshot characters, casually. That isn't an argument. Like it or not, there's an anti-feat that exists that proves the 50/50 shot in the dark saving grace isnt talking about him. It sucks, it really does, but there's simply not enough canonical evidence but rather even a canonical disprovement. Also him one-shotting doesnt matter, it's more like "not letting yourself get your heart ripped out".

Still doesen't debunk GER being casual until he blitzed Diavolo in the last 2 MUDA Rushes.

Tbf that was casual too, it's just it being casual doesnt invalidate the antifeat.

You have become the very thing you swore to destroy. You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the GER lowball, not join them. You were to bring balance to the jojo verse, not leave it in the downplay.

I'm trying to be fair to both sides here, and while I'd love to keep GER as infinite, and I even personally think he qualifies to a good extent myself, the actual evidence we have to work with simply isnt enough to say he himself is concretely that and even if I believe he is there isn't enough to actually say he is, I want the profiles to be accurate to the best of our abilities without relying on assumptions. The fact the best we have is a 50/50 and a anti-feat doesn't bode well, I'm not sure what you want me to say, sorry I guess.
c̶u̶t̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶b̶r̶e̶a̶k̶ ̶m̶a̶n̶,̶ ̶i̶m̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶h̶o̶s̶p̶i̶t̶a̶l̶,̶ ̶i̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶w̶a̶n̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶e̶n̶d̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶i̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶b̶a̶c̶k̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶y̶i̶n̶g̶.̶ ̶

 

[Chariot190]

You mean this? It's hard to say that this even qualifies as a blitz seeing as Diavolo cannot move.

To be fair, Mista actually goes on to say he didn't even see GER defeat Diavolo and had no idea how he was beaten, so that probably did actually blitz him, given Mista is surprisingly one the most perceptive members of the group.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Just as there are feats of GER being superior to Diavolo/KC, there are also some feats of Diavolo/KC being able to keep up with GER to some extent.

1) Although GER's attack was FTE to Diavolo, he could still slightly dodge it thanks to his precog. If GER's attack was infinite speed, Diavolo would not be able to slightly dodge it.

2) Diavolo can percieve GER's movements in erased time. If GER was moving infinitely fast, Diavolo should not be able to even percieve GER here.

3) Diavolo foresees himself being just slightly faster and being able to pierce Giorno. Epitaph isn't just going to show Diavolo something that is impossible physically. He can't see himself blowing the planet with a punch for example and then force it to happen due to fate hax.

We've gone over some of this already, I just wanted to reiterate these points for why I think we shouldn't say GER is infinitely fast physically.

Should GER still be rated superior to Diavolo overall? Yes, I think so, but not infinitely superior to him.

1)He saw the hole in the hand and had his hand already ready then the beam shot, he didnt see anything else, aim dodging doesnt debunk it

2)GER just played along with him thinking he had a chance, only to crush his last hope left and rushing him twice before having the death loop take care of it

3)able to manipulate fate you sorta can have impossible stuff happen, combined with another ability that makes sure they dont know of it till its too late

 

[StrymULTRA]

At this point, what about to "At least MFTL to Infinite physically, Infinite with Return to Zero"?

It covers both cases

 

[Chariot190]

2) Diavolo can percieve GER's movements in erased time. If GER was moving infinitely fast, Diavolo should not be able to even percieve GER here.

Actually, that's more due to how his ability works. GER never actually moved at all if you're talking about the "slow mo" effects, if you wanna get technical.

But regardless, that doesnt change Point 3, so the end result of sus base infinite still stands.

 

[Chariot190]

At this point, what about to "At least MFTL to Infinite physically, Infinite with Return to Zero"?

It covers both cases

I'd have been fine "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with RTZ".
Possibly due to the fact that best case scenario, it's still a 50/50 so not actually concrete and just guessing.
But due to the Epitaph sequence, that 50/50 becomes a zero, he's demonstrably proven not to scale to Infinite physically, implying as such is dishonest regardless of wording.
The only way i could see this working is if we toss the fate resistance out the window and say Epitaph fate ****** GER to get hit, and we take the 50/50 and assume best case scenario and a big ass blog about time erase and how it interacts with reality is written (I aint doing that, more effort than it's worth), but that sadly isnt possible here.

 

[Zel97]

Wait so if rtz>ger. Are we implying that rtz is passive in canon? I mean if interpreted it right, the argument was that ger was affected by KC but not rtz. Therefore ger was frozen as well,rtz activated on its own.

 

[Chariot190]

Wait so if rtz>ger. Are we implying that rtz is passive in canon? I mean if interpreted it right, the argument was that ger was affected by KC but not rtz. Therefore ger was frozen as well,rtz activated on its own.

I mean, that's what Efi says, hit her up on that one, I quite while I was ahead on that front.
Though, as i said a few times this thread, personally I'm under the belief that RTZ is both automatic and manual. In that it can take actions into its own hand, but if GER wanted he could manually use it as well if he wanted. (Actually, think of it like BTD, Kira can use it manually, but it can also go on auto-pilot if it wants). Though that's just my interpretation of it, we're never actually told outright if that's the case.
Though this doesn't inherently change the end result, if you have a gun, even if you can pull the trigger and fire it manually or if it'd do it itself at times, it doesnt change what speed it is, just how it comes to be.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

At this point, what about to "At least MFTL to Infinite physically, Infinite with Return to Zero"?

It covers both cases

If its like this, imma agree on it

 

[Damage3245]

Nothing stated that Diavolo couldn't move, GER didn't show paralysis related powers whatsoever

A different kind of "cannot move" to paralysis. Diavolo did and could move, but he would be rewound back to zero leaving no option for him other than to be punched by GER. Hence why he says he hasn't moved from the start.

 

[Antoniofer]

I believe it's too late to give some argument that hasn't been discussed in previous comments, but gotta leave the cards in the table.

KC's time erasure is not depicted as some feat related to speed, erased time is not even like time stop, so "moving" there is neither a speed feat; there were an instance, I think with Sex Pistol but not remember quite, where the projectiles pretty much moved iin erased time, so movement is still possible, at the end its 5 second event that actually happened (this is more obvious with the anime scenes, take it or not).

As for MiH being infinite in speed, inot quite, it accelerate time and he accelerate along with it, exponentially growing, when it reaches infinite, the universe resets. MiH's Stat block saying infinite? Consider the following: its wrong, or at least misinterpreted, there were instances where Pucci being infinite in speed could have been pretty useful, and yet nothing (take it or not), Jotaro even stopped him in time when trying to look for hi shortly after obtaining MiH.

 

[Chariot190]

If its like this, imma agree on it

But dude, that's ignoring the evidence, that's not even how that rating works.
Best case scenario itd mftl etc, possibly infinite as even in the best case scenario, even if you purged the epitaph sequence, we wouldnt know if GER was scaling to infinite itself 100%, only that something is.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'd have been fine "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with RTZ".
Possibly due to the fact that best case scenario, it's still a 50/50 so not actually concrete and just guessing.
But due to the Epitaph sequence, that 50/50 becomes a zero, he's demonstrably proven not to scale to Infinite physically, implying as such is dishonest regardless of wording.
The only way i could see this working is if we toss the fate resistance out the window and say Epitaph fate ****** GER to get hit, and we take the 50/50 and assume best case scenario and a big ass blog about time erase and how it interacts with reality is written (I aint doing that, more effort than it's worth), but that sadly isnt possible here.

Possibly: Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

It fits how we use the possibly wording tbh, since it has still basis in our standards.

Tho a new wording would be

• At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with Return to Zero (Blitzed Diavolo several times. Could talk and act in the King Crimson's Erased Time and nullify it with Return to Zero. Stated to be the "Ultimate Stand" and to have exceeded all the canon Stands in statistics in the JOJO-A-GO!GO! Databook, putting it above the likes of Notorious B.I.G. and Made in Heaven, albeit it wasn't specified if said rating was for the whole of GER's statistics or just RtZ)

 

[Chariot190]

KC's time erasure is not depicted as some feat related to speed, erased time is not even like time stop, so "moving" there is neither a speed feat; there were an instance, I think with Sex Pistol but not remember quite, where the projectiles pretty much moved iin erased time, so movement is still possible, at the end its 5 second event that actually happened (this is more obvious with the anime scenes, take it or not).

That's actually wrong, nothing moves in deleted time, Mista's bullets? They aren't moving, the characters? They aren't moving, nothing moves. It's not so simple, I understand the confusion surrounding subject, especially because, like you mentioned, the anime actually changed how it works to make the ability itself simpler to understand so I understand completely why this is being brought up again so it's fine.
But no, nothing moves in time erased, those things you see, arent actually them. I posted an example early in the thread.

As for MiH being infinite in speed, inot quite, it accelerate time and he accelerate along with it, exponentially growing, when it reaches infinite, the universe resets.

And it keeps going till he manually decides to stop it, doesnt matter. MIH can hit Infinite speed and he's rated as such, that's the only two things that need to be true, the rest is semantics at best and irrelevant at worst. The end result is what matters here, and we know for an absolute fact he can and has hit said speed (only stopping to kill Emporio in the new world). Should also make mention the second time he uses his ability the acceleration is far faster, as well, not that it matters.

MiH's Stat block saying infinite? Consider the following: its wrong, or at least misinterpreted, there were instances where Pucci being infinite in speed could have been pretty useful, and yet nothing (take it or not), Jotaro even stopped him in time when trying to look for hi shortly after obtaining MiH.

It isn't wrong? It's demonstrably proven true, he's rated for what his peak speed is, everybody is well aware he needs to accelerate to said speed first, but that doesn't change the fact his top speed is infinite and he's rated as such in all known material. You're acting like because it says Infinite, it must mean he's ALWAYS infinite or it's wrong, that's never the case, we know the context and why, we know it's his peak speed, and we know it's referring to him at maximum velocity.
You're not wrong per say, the things you're saying about MIH, for the most part, aren't wrong, the issue is that this is completely irrelevant and doesnt actually change any points made.

 

[Chariot190]

Could talk and act in the King Crimson's Erased Time and nullify it with Return to Zero.

Bro, erased time feats dont count for anything anymore, it's literally why this thread is a thing.
Also the Ultimate Stand line you're taking a bit out of context in the way that's worded, and you're still outright ignoring the epitaph anti-feat, that WOULD work and be reasonable conclusion, if, that never happened. But it did.
Also "just for GER or RTZ", it doesn't have to be for just one of them, some stats could be GER, some could be RTZ, it isn't mutually exclusive.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bro, erased time feats dont count for anything anymore, it's literally why this thread is a thing.

Is a supportive feat lol, we can't ignore it, is worth to be mentioned.

Also the Ultimate Stand line you're taking a bit out of context in the way that's worded, and you're still outright ignoring the epitaph anti-feat, that WOULD work and be reasonable conclusion, if, that never happened. But it did.
Also "just for GER or RTZ", it doesn't have to be for just one of them, some stats could be GER, some could be RTZ, it isn't mutually exclusive.

That's why the possibly is there, to cover the possibility that the rating may be just for RtZ or the entirely of GER.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

KC's time erasure is not depicted as some feat related to speed, erased time is not even like time stop, so "moving" there is neither a speed feat; there were an instance, I think with Sex Pistol but not remember quite, where the projectiles pretty much moved iin erased time, so movement is still possible, at the end its 5 second event that actually happened (this is more obvious with the anime scenes, take it or not).

Sex pistols doesnt debunk it, KC says the actions we see from others in time erase is forecasts only, aerosmiths bullets go through him too, showing nothing is physically there and they just projections

 

[Chariot190]

is a supportive feat lol, we can't ignore it, is worth to be mentioned.

It can't tho, it's definitely worth mentioning on the profile somewhere, hell, it's gonna be a resistance at the very least, but we, as a wiki, outright dont consider those feats to be relevant to speed at all. Listing it in speed as a justification doesnt work, because it isnt one anymore, not even support, it's treated, in regards to speed, the same as simply moving through air, doesnt effect anything. If those feats still counted, this thread would have been void and the rating would stay as is.

That's why the possibly is there, to cover the possibility that the rating may be just for RtZ or the entirely of GER.

That's fair and would work as I said, but only if GER being apart of that possibility wasnt discredited by the manga itself...

 

[Chariot190]

Actually, idk why we discussing how time erase even works, forecasts, etc or anything is even a topic, time void feats dont count anymore, it's why we're even having this thread, time erase doesnt effect anything at all here so talking about it is just kinda filling up the thread with posts that dont change anything.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It can't tho, it's definitely worth mentioning on the profile somewhere, hell, it's gonna be a resistance at the very least, but we, as a wiki, outright dont consider those feats to be relevant to speed at all. Listing it in speed as a justification doesnt work, because it isnt one anymore, not even support, it's treated, in regards to speed, the same as simply moving through air, doesnt effect anything. If those feats still counted, this thread would have been void and the rating would stay as is.

Fine I guess.

That's fair and would work as I said, but only if GER being apart of that possibility wasnt discredited by the manga itself...

You admitted that is a 50/50 possibility, so why not now?

Is not much of a chance for a likely, but isn't even that remote for the possibly, since it works even for mild possibilities.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Diavolo statement < feats saying otherwise

Count it as possibly, also fate manipulation would still not care of how powerful GER is, his power will be something to favor him regardless

 

[Chariot190]

Fine I guess.

You admitted that is a 50/50 possibility, so why not now?

Is not much of a chance for a likely, but isn't even that remote for the possibly, since it works even for mild possibilities.

It's a 50/50 if GER had no contradictions, the Epitapth sequence discredits the possibility of scaling and his other feats aren't enough to disprove that scene. Thus, that 50/50 becomes a 0, we now know what it was talking about, and it was talking RTZ, the thing that's already proven capable of acting against things GER can not, hell even the very blow that was "supposedly" going to kill Giorno.
RTZ has no contradictions and everything going for it, GER on the other hand is in a bad position.

 

[Antoniofer]

Forecasting or not, there's no reason to believe infinite speed is one of the requeriments to bypass KC's power beyond of the popular vsbattles belief, if GER was going to be infinite in speed, that is not a reason (but I believe that was cleared in the first page). Either way, there's no reason to assume RtZ is above GER, they have to have the same rating.

Now you agree, MiH's speed is not something like conventional speed, but rather something granted by its Time Manipulation. So I believe the main point is that GER as "NA" as rating instead an infinite rating as MiH, what does NA in this case?

 

[Chariot190]

Diavolo statement < feats saying otherwise

It's not a statement tho, we see it too.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Forecasting or not, there's no reason to believe infinite speed is one of the requeriments to bypass KC's power beyond of the popular vsbattles belief, if GER was going to be infinite in speed, that is not a reason (but I believe that was cleared in the first page). Either way, there's no reason to assume RtZ is above GER, they have to have the same rating.

Now you agree, MiH's speed is not something like conventional speed, but rather something granted by its Time Manipulation. So I believe the main point is that GER as "NA" as rating instead an infinite rating as MiH, what does NA in this case?

JOJO-A-GO!GO! stated that is because of the stats being non-measurable from the Jojoverse standards

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Forecasting or not, there's no reason to believe infinite speed is one of the requeriments to bypass KC's power beyond of the popular vsbattles belief, if GER was going to be infinite in speed, that is not a reason (but I believe that was cleared in the first page). Either way, there's no reason to assume RtZ is above GER, they have to have the same rating.

Diavolo literally says only he should move in time erase as if nothing happened and be unaffected, GER is the only one not to be

 

[Chariot190]

Forecasting or not, there's no reason to believe infinite speed is one of the requeriments to bypass KC's power beyond of the popular vsbattles belief, if GER was going to be infinite in speed, that is not a reason (but I believe that was cleared in the first page). Either way, there's no reason to assume RtZ is above GER, they have to have the same rating.

Now you agree, MiH's speed is not something like conventional speed, but rather something granted by its Time Manipulation. So I believe the main point is that GER as "NA" as rating instead an infinite rating as MiH, what does NA in this case?

Ok? Why are you even talking about this? Time erase was never a factor to any argument bringing it up is a literal waste of time, I dont think anyone except a few posts ago used that as a justification at all.
Also excuse you? RTZ is demonstrably above GER, and "they have to have the same rating".
No they don't, where does it say that? Where does it imply that? Since when was this a thing?
Absolutely nothing says that GER and RTZ have to be the same speed, absolutely nothing. And there's no reason to assume they are if we have evidence of RTZ already being capable of stopping things GER can't. The notion they're the same is already proven false.
That argument isnt an actual argument. If theyre different then theyre different, that's all there is to it.

Now I agree? I'm not agreeing with what you're insinuating, I'm just saying at face value you're not wrong but what you're trying to conclude based upon the information isn't inherent right or relevant. Nobody said otherwise. MIH's speed is effectively conventional and treated as such, it's acceleration that allows him to hit infinite speed and he's treated and rated as such in context and elsewhere for that to be the case. It's also technically not even time manipulation.
You believe wrong. Also NA is wrong based on everything we know about this, hell, the reason it exists is to clarify it's not literally "None".

Like we've went over this, a hundred times, this isn't even new news. And the worst part is, it doesn't matter, this quite literally doesn't effect the argument in the slightest.

Please bring up something that wasnt argued for over a hundred posts, I'm begging you, this particular topic has been beaten into the ground and is six feet under already.