GERs Speed is outdated

[BlackDarkness679]

The standards from void or realms with no time came up only cuz many verses just move normally and dont point out anything needed to do that

Anyone has took in consideration if a verse states you need to have the movements to do that in such places?

If a character is said by movement cant be affected by time stop and can go normally, we still gonna say its not speed related? Also this was an example

 

[Chariot190]

The standards from void or realms with no time came up only cuz many verses just move normally and dont point out anything needed to to do it

Anyone has took in consideration if a verse states you need to have the movements to do that in such places?

If a character is said by movement cant be affected by time stop and can go normally, we still gonna say its not speed related?

I don't disagree with you (at least not fully), and I think some things should be case by case, but, that's a different thread entirely, that's a wiki wide thing.
Point is based on wiki regulations and what we know, mftl, infinite rtz is the best we got. The time feat cant be used at all on standards, and even then, King Crimson's Time Skip is whack with how it actually works, it'd be interpretive at best (not to say I personally would accept the interpretation, it being subjective means nothing objective can be gotten).

Technically the last one would be considered resistance first if speed isnt relevant to the feat and there's no other feats to suggest that being from speed.

 

[Antoniofer]

Sigh, this is the reason I didn't want to comment here...

Ok, KC is not the issue here, that is out of the window, basically is scaling from MiH based in "NA" being superior to "infinite", am I right?

Plus, MiH accelerate time, everything that is not a living being increases its "speed" (flesh rots faster, clothes disintegrate, etc), it was also stated it manipulates time, so why assuming his power works like B.I.G and is more "mundane" speed?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Chariot you talk about anti-feats, but you forgot that is why the possibly exist, if said anti-feat that makes if GER gets Infinite or not vague, is because of this:

• Case 1: GER was affected until RtZ came in, so is MFTL
• Case 2: GER was ******* around and just wanted to show to Diavolo how Truth works, and the full scaling from MiH is legit

We can't know which one is true, so the MFTL, possibly Infinite stands, simple as that.

 

[Chariot190]

Ok, KC is not the issue here, that is out of the window,

a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶s̶s̶u̶e̶,̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶e̶ ̶e̶r̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶t̶s̶e̶l̶f̶.̶ ̶

.basically is scaling from MiH based in "NA" being superior to "infinite", am I right?

If you simplify it drastically and cut out the arguments, that's like, the bare bones version of it yeah.

Plus, MiH accelerate time, everything that is not a living being increases its "speed" (flesh rots faster, clothes disintegrate, etc), it was also stated it manipulates time, so why assuming his power works like B.I.G and is more "mundane" speed?

Because we aren't treating it like that?
Everyone knows MIH gets his increased speed through his ability, that doesn't matter.
His speed does increase, is it through the use of his ability? Yes, but it does increase, he makes use of his accelerating speed and we know for an absolute fact he's rated in his speed category, as infinite, because at his peak, his speed hits that of infinity.
All that matters is that MIH can hit infinite speeds and he's rated as such.
the issue here is that this argument is just arguing how he gets infinite speed, doesnt change that he still gets it and he's qualified as such at his best.
Also BIG as well, he exists so even then.

Like, this is like complaining about Kiritsugu's accel and acting like it doesn't actually effect his speed, if he was rated at his peak speed with those spells, well, it wouldnt change the fact that's his speed in that situation and he's rated like that.

 

[Chariot190]

Chariot you talk about anti-feats, but you forgot that is why the possibly exist, if said anti-feat that makes if GER gets Infinite or not vague, is because of this:

• Case 1: GER was affected until RtZ came in, so is MFTL
• Case 2: GER was ******* around and just wanted to show to Diavolo how Truth works, and the full scaling from MiH is legit

We can't know which one is true, so the MFTL, possibly Infinite stands, simple as that.

Furst off, that's not case 1, GER being "effected" isnt the issue, the issue is him getting his heart torn out, what happens after the time erase, as shown in the vision.
GER isnt omniscient, he doesnt know exactly what vision Diavolo is gonna get, him ******* around is sus because there's a difference between ******* around and being gouged out in a potential future because you couldnt defend in time.

And occam's razer exists, GER looked like he was effected by time erase, the vision showed something happening, and everything was in motion to transpire that way, only stopping because RTZ kicked in.
That's what we know, that's what we see, so that's how we treat it.

Are we really going to pretend or act like GER was just "pretending" to be effected and didnt do anything till RTZ itself kicked in on the attack that was supposed to kill Giorno?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

@Chariot190

You have become the very thing you swore to destroy. You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the GER lowball to infinite speed, not join them. You were to bring balance to the jojo verse, not leave it in the downplay.

You were like a brother to us. We were supported you

 

[StrymULTRA]

Are we really going to pretend or act like GER was just "pretending" to be effected and didnt do anything till RTZ itself kicked in on the attack that was supposed to kill Giorno?

I mean, as I told before, GER wanted to trigger RtZ to show to Diavolo how he can't reach the truth he saw, and he somehow knew that he was viewing the future as we can see from that "the actions you see are indeed the future" thing.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, as I told before, GER wanted to trigger RtZ to show to Diavolo how he can't reach the truth he saw, and he somehow knew that he was viewing the future as we can see from that "the actions you see are indeed the future" thing.

So we're going to pretend then?
Also yeah obviously GER knew, Diavolo yelled out that his vision choose him before GER started talking (And he would have already known, Giorno was well aware of Epitaph and his precognition).

 

[Chariot190]

You were like a brother to us. We were supported you

I can't support something that is inherently flawed, I want to support JoJo in full like everyone else, but i can't do so based on faulty logic and dishonesty.

 

[StrymULTRA]

So we're going to pretend then?
Also yeah obviously GER knew, Diavolo yelled out that his vision choose him before GER started talking (And he would have already known, Giorno was well aware of Epitaph and his precognition).

I mean, GER at that very moment knew that he was going to die as it was written in the fate, so he decided to prove Diavolo wrong in the most savage way possible, that's it.

 

[Antoniofer]

If erased time is not the issue, and do not support infinite speed anymore, and scaling from MiH and BIG (that I still have my issues), then what is the other reason for infinite speed?

Try to be as short as possible, and respectful, I just came here, I did not read through +400 comments.

 

[Chariot190]

If erased time is not the issue, and do not support infinite speed anymore, and scaling from MiH and BIG (that I still have my issues), then what is the other reason for infinite speed?

Well, for starters, your issues are unfounded, or rather, they arent relevant and dont change or effect the things that do matter, your only argument amounts to why he's infinite speed, not if he is, unless you want to actually argue that MIH isn't infinite in speed, isnt treated as such and cant actually reach it, then it's kinda moot, because that's the only way that issue would be relevant.

Try to be as short as possible, and respectful, I just came here, I did not read through +400 comments.

My dude, if it was so simple to just easily explain that we wouldn't have gone for 400 posts to begin with... Hell I wish i could cover everything in a quick post, but at this point I dont think that's even possible.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If erased time is not the issue, and do not support infinite speed anymore, and scaling from MiH and BIG (that I still have my issues), then what is the other reason for infinite speed?

It's mainly from the scaling above MiH and BIG yep, and I don't see issues there, as GER is the "Ultimate Stand" according to WoG and Databooks.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, GER at that very moment knew that he was going to die as it was written in the fate, so he decided to prove Diavolo wrong in the most savage way possible, that's it.

He didn't though, if he was effected by time skip, and was about to "die" before RTZ kicked in, how would he know?
You're assuming he was pretending to be conscious that whole time, when that's not implied at all and he didnt appear active untill RTZ saved him.
And as for knowing about the vision and that he was going to die, that's because Diavolo yelled at him so like?

 

[StrymULTRA]

He didn't though, if he was effected by time skip, and was about to "die" before RTZ kicked in, how would he know?
You're assuming he was pretending to be conscious that whole time, when that's not implied at all and he didnt appear active untill RTZ saved him.
And as for knowing about the vision and that he was going to die, that's because Diavolo yelled at him so like?

Ye, at very least he has resistance to time hax like Jotaro did, couldn't move but still aware.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You have no proof to say he was affected and RTZ kicked on its own either

 

[Chariot190]

Ye, at very least he has resistance to time hax like Jotaro did, couldn't move but still aware..

But that isn't said anywhere or hinted at...
That's the thing dude, you're making to many assumptions, there's a limit to what we can do in that situation.

 

[Chariot190]

You have no proof to say he was affected and RTZ kicked on its own either

What about the fact he was clearly visually effected by the time skip and didnt resume normally till RTZ kicked in while he was still effected?

 

[StrymULTRA]

But that isn't said anywhere or hinted at...
That's the thing dude, you're making to many assumptions, there's a limit to what we can do in that situation.

Even you make assumptions tho, since this "RtZ > GER" was made from you.

Plus, GER has evidence of being aware in the Skip, otherwise how could he know about Diavolo seeing his future?

 

[Chariot190]

Even you make assumptions tho, since this "RtZ > GER" was made from you.

Yeah based on actual concrete evidence. I'm not saying it just because or making assumptions not based on anything, at this point it isnt an assumptions, it's just saying something we know to be true based on actual proof and explicit showings.

Plus, GER has evidence of being aware in the Skip, otherwise how could he know about Diavolo seeing his future?

That would only count if that actually happened, Diavolo screamed that after RTZ kicked in. That would be why. Of course GER would be aware of something Diavolo said after RTZ kicked in, that's like, the whole argument here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That would only count if that actually happened, Diavolo screamed that after RTZ kicked in. That would be why. Of course GER would be aware of something Diavolo said after RTZ kicked in, that's like, the whole argument here.

He didn't lmao. As you can see here (which I've created from the scans I've downloaded rn), Diavolo did that scream in the 5th pic, but RtZ activated in the 6th.

 

[Chariot190]

"But, the forecast has still chosen me!".
He screams that right in his face after RTZ already activated, as in, after everything was going back to normal. He screams about his vision more then once dude, he's kinda panicking so of course he would, the second time RTZ already kicked in.
Like if I knew someone had precognition, and they screamed in my face saying that the vision still chose them while he's trying to land a killing blow on me, it doesn't take a genius to know that he's talking about his precog.

Like come on, be reasonable, there's a limit to how much we can assume when far more likely alternatives and explanations exist if not otherwise specified.

 

[Damage3245]

He didn't lmao. As you can see here (which I've created from the scans I've downloaded rn), Diavolo did that scream in the 5th pic, but RtZ activated in the 6th.

Diavolo still speaks out loud after RTZ is activated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Diavolo still speaks out loud after RTZ is activated.

RtZ activates when Diavolo gets "duplied" lol

 

[StrymULTRA]

This was before RtZ

 

[Chariot190]

This was before RtZ

Yes, and one panel after RTZ kicks in, stops him from finishing his blow, several things start reverting, including the blood and so on and so forth. And then he talks about his vision again and goes to attack again, before he himself is yeeted back in full force.
RTZ was already active the second time.

Edit: Actually double checking, Diavolo was already being dragged back forcefully against his will, he tried to get in another strike before he was forcefully pull completely out of range, and that's when he says the second line.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I just noticed and remembered from Strym scans, Diavolo blinded Giorno with blood as well and we seen users cant fight what they cant see, let alone Diavolo also had to punch Giorno too in other to deal with GER, so thats another point how Diavolo managed to get that, agaim him saying he was fast enough isnt true when he got blitzed

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, and one panel after RTZ kicks in, stops him from finishing his blow, several things start reverting, including the blood and so on and so forth. And then he talks about his vision again and goes to attack again, before he himself is yeeted back in full force.
RTZ was already active the second time.

Edit: Actually double checking, Diavolo was already being dragged back forcefully against his will, he tried to get in another strike before he was forcefully pull completely out of range, and that's when he says the second line.

You literally just admitted that RtZ activated after the 1st claim

 

[Chariot190]

I just noticed and remembered from Strym scans, Diavolo blinded Giorno with blood as well and we seen users cant fight what they cant see, let alone Diavolo also had to punch Giorno too in other to deal with GER, so thats another point how Diavolo managed to get that, agaim him saying he was fast enough isnt true when he got blitzed

I don't think you understand what base infinite GER would entail, he would have had literally infinite time to wipe the blood from his eyes. This argument would be ok if we were talking about literally anything BUT infinite speed for base.

 

[Chariot190]

You literally just admitted that RtZ activated after the 1st claim

Uh yeah cool? And there was two claims, and the second claim was after RTZ was activated.
Do you not realize what you're arguing here? If he mentioned it AT ALL after RTZ, your whole point is completely invalidated, because Diavolo explicitly makes note of his vision post RTZ, and he did, he does mention it right in GER's face, after RTZ kicked in.
Ergo, GER being aware of Diavolo's vision and thus being aware in the erased time initially doesn't add up, because Diavolo exclaimed as much even after the fact.

Actually, why are you clinging to whether it was the 1st, 2nd or even dozenth claim? That doesn't matter, your point becomes invalid the moment a single claim happened post RTZ.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Uh yeah cool? And there was two claims, and the second claim was after RTZ was activated.
Do you not realize what you're arguing here? If he mentioned it AT ALL after RTZ, your whole point is completely invalidated, because Diavolo explicitly makes note of his vision post RTZ, and he did, he does mention it right in GER's face, after RTZ kicked in.
Ergo, GER being aware of Diavolo's vision and thus being aware in the erased time initially doesn't add up, because Diavolo exclaimed as much even after the fact.

I don't remotely think that GER would do nothing after that "IT'S OVER" with Diavolo about to punch Giorno to the head tbf.

 

[Chariot190]

I don't remotely think that GER would do nothing after that "IT'S OVER" with Diavolo about to punch Giorno to the head tbf.

Isnt this actively counterintuitive to the point you're trying to make? You think he would so something after he says that? But he doesn't really do anything at al;, if your main goal is to say that GER was always cognizant, then either way, this claim doesnt add up to your end goal. Unless I'm misunderstanding you here.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Isnt this actively counterintuitive to the point you're trying to make? You think he would so something after he says that? But he doesn't really do anything at al;, if your main goal is to say that GER was always cognizant, then either way, this claim doesnt add up to your end goal. Unless I'm misunderstanding you here.

Ok, let's sum up a bit since this is derailing, shall we?

GER was at very least aware of what was happening, after that diavolo said "I did it! I won! I was a moment faster! The forecast shows me punching trought his heart! The future has choosen the actions of my King Crimson!"

After that, at the very moment when Diavolo was about to punch Giorno after such claim, RtZ goes in.

The 1st claim already made pretty clear that Diavolo used Epitaph, and ofc GER knew that he did such after hearing such a confirmation.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Man....stop defending that bullshit...it doesnt debunk infinite speed, if you manipulate fate, you change the odds against you aka can make the impossible, possible

It doesnt matter, fate made an infinite speed character lose to someone who isnt, simply cuz it was fated like that, in a part where fate is a huge theme going

 

[Chariot190]

Ok, let's sum up a bit since this is derailing, shall we?

I mean, it's you who brought it up.

GER was at very least aware of what was happening, after that diavolo said "I did it! I won! I was a moment faster! The forecast shows me punching trought his heart! The future has choosen the actions of my King Crimson!" After that, at the very moment when Diavolo was about to punch Giorno after such claim, RtZ goes in.

Yes, in case you missed it, the assumption is that RTZ can act on its own against attacks against Giorno, the reason being is, well GER was very clearly effected by the time erase initially. Don't like it? Take it up with Efi, not me.

The 1st claim already made pretty clear that Diavolo used Epitaph, and ofc GER knew that he did such after hearing such a confirmation.

Or, RTZ activated automatically as GER wasn't cognizant in the first place the moment Diavolo tried to harm Giorno, then GER heard Diavolo literally scream in his face about his vision and the like and that's why he was aware of the vision.

And before you say it, absolutely nothing says RTZ is manual or automatic, we just just to go one what we're shown, and that's, in this situation, GER being effected and not cognizant while it goes off.

 

[Chariot190]

Man....stop defending that bullshit...it doesnt debunk infinite speed, if you manipulate fate, you change the odds against you aka can make the impossible, possible

It doesnt matter, fate made an infinite speed character lose to non who isnt, simply cuz it was fated like that, in a part where fate is a huge theme going

Except, GER very likely resists fate, and hey, even Strym agreed to that, and if he resists fate then that fate excuse simply doesn't work, because it's wrong.

I'll defend the points that need defending, I'm not here to jack off the profiles as high as I possibly can, if something is warranted, it's warranted, if something is false, it's false. You're telling me to basically just accept things that have huge glaring issues and act like they dont exist? There's real issues here even if you think otherwise, and as such, I'm obligated to say as much because doing the opposite would be wrong to do.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Or, RTZ activated automatically as GER wasn't cognizant in the first place the moment Diavolo tried to harm Giorno, then GER heard Diavolo literally scream in his face about his vision and the like and that's why he was aware of the vision.

And before you say it, absolutely nothing says RTZ is manual or automatic, we just just to go one what we're shown, and that's, in this situation, GER being effected and not cognizant while it goes off.

I see what you mean. You still admit that RtZ being passive/automatic/whatever is an assumption with the same weight, so the possibility of GER being aware in the Time Skip even before RtZ is equal to the one you said, since both are valid interpretations which have the same validity, so the MFTL possibly Infinite still stands.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Except, GER very likely resists fate, and hey, even Strym agreed to that

I told that he has both, not either one of them lol

 

[Chariot190]

I see what you mean. You still admit that RtZ being passive/automatic/whatever is an assumption with the same weight, so the possibility of GER being aware in the Time Skip even before RtZ is equal to the one you said, since both are valid interpretations which have the same validity, so the MFTL possibly Infinite still stands.

Actually I said personally that I think it's both based on what we see it do and how it's been used.
The main issue is that we're never explicitly told it's any of them, it's not said in the manga or any guide.
As such, it's open to interpretation to an extent.
But that doesn't mean GER wasn't effected by the time erase, we kinda see it.