GERs Speed is outdated

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Pain

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I went to bed and woke up to 2 extra pages worth of shit. What are we arguing about now?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes actually, Giorno had his face caved in and was unconscious for that one feat, that absolutely was ******* GER and Giorno had zero say in that. The rest? Sure Giorno may have told him to do something like a normal Stand, and? Ger isnt going to say no **** you.

Those movements were too "normal" to say that at that moment it was indipendent, I mean, Dragon's Dream is an example of how an indipendent stand which cooperates with its user works.

Your reasons are quite literally "i cant accept this happened so im going to make up that GER somehow varies and there's different modes or something when he's listening and not listening to Giorno". Your reasons arent reasons, they're completely made up.

I simply mean that if GER acts, fate doesen't act normally anymore, heck, when it took control, Diavolo lost despite he was fated to win.

It'd be a miracle if you'd understand Occam's razer as well.

The hell is that related lol

 

[manu_zarri]

I went to bed and woke up to 2 extra pages worth of shit. What are we arguing about now?

they are debating about if infinite speed is for ger or rtz

 

[StrymULTRA]

To all the new stuff coming here, there are the relevant points:

1. GER having Infinite Speed from moving in the Time Erase is invalidated
2. GER is argued being above BIG and MiH's peak speed from the JOJO A-GO!GO! artbook saying that its None stats are given due to them being non-measurable for that standards of the Jojoverse, however is unknown if such was just for the RtZ ability or the whole of GER, that's why I suggested the new rating "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with Return to Zero"
3. However, there's the doubt of if GER was affected from the Time Erasure before the activation of RtZ, which is what's actually discussed.

^This, plus the fact that if GER has resistance to Precogn if not under Giorno's control

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

they are debating about if infinite speed is for ger or rtz

Still?

 

[manu_zarri]

Still?

yes

 

[Chariot190]

Fate manipulation on its own page literally has probably manipulation in accordance with it saying you can make impossible stuff possible, funny how you think damage word holds more weight then the wiki own page who says otherwise, just shows how easily you are convinced by unfounded claims

Yes, but there's one key issue with that, Diavolo doesn't make anything happen, Epitaph just shows him a future and that future gets locked, It becomes impossible, normally, to avoid that future, but that future isn't a future that inherently is impossible.

Insulting me by saying im blind (which is an insult no matter how you put it) along saying to f off or "she hurt your feelings" is not making you any more right either, the only thing i agree on the previous guy who argued you, was you insulting others and such, on that thing he was ironically right

I mean, if you can't see something that blatant, at that point it's more an observation than a insult, Also do we truly live in a time that saying someone is blind is deemed an actually insult? That's ******.
Yes, **** off with the Efi thing, I'm not saying **** you personally or like "hey you **** off", I'm saying **** off with that constant clinging to that like that actually matters, as in drop it, so yes, **** off with that, drop it, it ain't relevant. And that was an actual question, I have absolutely no idea why every single other sentence you post is about Efi, like why are you so caught up on that?

That 1% as i explained but choosed to ignore if analyzed alone will in the end prove to be wrong, also your sky is blue thing is wrong, it can be dark at night or even yellowish orange or such at near sunset or such, on other planets it can be different in color, so its not true to say sky is blue and its correct without a doubt

You know damn well what I meant, like clearly I'm talking about OUR sky in the middle of the day. And that 1% still checks out.

If you cant debunk or prove something dont at all, as well as going to retort at insults and the such when proven wrong, you thinking your head canons from someone else have any relevance isnt founded, like it or not

I've got out of my way to explain why half the things you said here don't cut it, prove something? Where's those scans I asked of you? Because at the moment you're just saying something without actual backing. As ironic as it is, I'm the only person in this conversation who's taking things as shown and isn't inserting assumptions and the like here, I'm doing anything but headcanon. And I dont give a shit who they're from, I would have brought them up myself regardless.

You should have not been swayed by false interpretation which is that exactly

I can make my own judgement calls thank you.
"false"
"interpretation"
I hope you realize the issue with that.

 

[Chariot190]

If you would actually bring valid stuff and act differently, people would actually agree with you and not argue for hundreds of comments, yet that seems to be the case almost all the time

I have brought valid stuff, it's precisely why numerous people did agree with me on the previous proposal, but now that I'm saying "hey this thing you're now proposing doesnt actually check out" you're acting like I'm somehow the bad guy here, if the points are valid then that's good, but if it's wrong or ignorant to points that have merit but go against what you want, then sorry, but that's just how it is.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

@Chariot190

You have become the very thing you swore to destroy. You were the chosen one! It was said you would destroy the GER lowball to infinite speed, not join them. You were to bring balance to the jojo verse, not leave it in the downplay.

Chariot pulled an Anakin Skywalker here, which resulted in this for those who were before here but gone for a while

 

[Chariot190]

Chariot pulled an Anakin Skywalker here, which resulted in this for those who were before here but gone for a while

Can you stop acting like I have to either be all for it or completely against it?
If something is right it's right, if something is wrong it's wrong, but given how many points are at play here, obviously not everything is going to be straightforward.
I agree with a majority of points, **** I argued and brought up a good chunk of them, but that doesn't mean if there's some blatant ignorance on the side I mostly support that I'm not going to call it out.

 

[SSJRyu1]

For me I still think "mftl, possibly infinite for RtZ", or "mftl" and no particular speed at all for RtZ is the best choice fra.

But if those become off the table then I would agree with Chariot and Efficient on "mftl, infinite with RtZ" over just "infinite" in general.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

1) managing to kill an opponent that is faster then you via fate is an impossible thing, you yourself agreed on that, you dropped it afterwards in favor of resistance to fate whom has no proof

2) yeah calling someone blind and all you said is insulting and so on, regardless its uncalled for bro

3) yeah after i called out out in that now you make that up, but whatever

4)Strym and 1-2 more (i think) were still in favor of GER getting physical speed at that, on which you disagree even if put as possibly from things not actually disproving it

5) yet people were still opposing you, you cant say there wasnt and thats cuz sometimes you dont bring anything to convince otherwise, which is why this started a new discussion from Strym, me and others on the line

 

[StrymULTRA]

For me I still think "mftl, possibly infinite for RtZ", or "mftl" and no particular speed at all for RtZ is the best choice fra.

But if those become off the table then I would agree with Chariot and Efficient on "mftl, infinite with RtZ" over just "infinite" in general.

I think that the main point is if GER was actually affected from the Erase, we can't know what exactly happened due to how vague the scene was due to GER being poorly explained.

I'd like to say again how possibly ratings are given.

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

This fits GER's situation, he can be like he can be not infinite in speed, that's why I suggested the "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite, Infinite with Return to Zero" rating

 

[Chariot190]

1) managing to kill an opponent that is faster then you via fate is an impossible thing, you yourself agreed on that, you dropped it afterwards in favor of resistance to fate whom has no proof

2) yeah calling someone blind and all you said is insulting and so on, regardless its uncalled for bro

3) yeah after i called out out in that now you make that up, but whatever

4)Strym and 1-2 more (i think) were still in favor of GER getting physical speed at that, on which you disagree even if put as possibly from things not actually disproving it

5) yet people were still opposing you, you cant say there wasnt and thats cuz sometimes you dont bring anything to convince otherwise, which is why this started a new discussion from Strym, me and others on the line

I've been advocating resistance to fate since like, summer of 2019, I didn't switch.
Also the issue with that lies in that yes, Epitaph does make things happen, but I guess to be more exact, it's more like it makes things impossible to change rather then making the impossible happen. Like Damage said, King Crimson wouldnt crack a planet in half in a vision because a vision like that would never happen.

Honestly I'm actually surprised you took that as an insult, ive seen that been said hundreds of times before, even here, but given you called me bro, assuming that wasnt sarcasm, no hard feelings.

Honestly dont know what 3 is talking about.

Dude, even the BEST CASE SCENARIO is a possibility, not even flat out, the reason I disagree is because there's demonstrable evidence of it being not true, that's it, nothing more, nothing less.

I mean, yeah, no shit people were still opposing me, but it's a miracle the majority did agree with me on such a controversial subject. Dude, you say "dont bring evidence" but I hope you know that literally nothing new has been brought up that hasn't been mentioned since page 1. I've brought up enough evidence, like goddamn I argued extensively for the singular thing that would even save any semblance of a rating, and even supplied numerous scans myself, some of which i even took myself irl with my physicals belongings. All the evidence has already been posted, at this point it's the same singular issue of scans that were posted ages ago, nothing else new to post, but at the same time, I asked you for scans of your claims did I not?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

What Strym suggested is better and fitting in this case, not giving outright that rating but possibly

 

[SSJRyu1]

Personally I don't think there is sufficient proof to give him possibly infinite in physical speed, I get what your saying, but the wiki generally goes with whatever the most conservative option is if there is doubt.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm against the possibly, and for one single crucial reason (there's that other reason, but I could at least live with that if this one didnt also exist), the Epitaph scene, under no circumstance would that have happened if GER was infinite, GER failed there in that potential future, he failed, he wasnt fast enough.
Yes, Epitaph makes the future impossible to change, if it's shown that shit is happening no matter what you do, but the fact it was shown in the first place? Epitaph would show something that's literally never in a billion years going to happen, rather, something that outright cant happen.
It can be used to get some whack as **** situations going, and once shown it's locked in, but Epitaph isnt going to show something that literally cant happen, and a MFTL barely edging out a infinite is one such thing that straight up cant occur.

If that didn't happen, I'd be fine with the 50/50 possibly, but the existence of that makes the 50/50 a 0.

 

[StrymULTRA]

but the wiki generally goes with whatever the most conservative option is if there is doubt.

There are even less likely ratings, and rejecting this would mean just a huge double-standards.

I'm against the possibly, and for one single crucial reason, the Epitaph scene, under no circumstance would that have happened if GER was infinite, GER failed there in that potential future, he failed, he wasnt fast enough.
Yes, Epitaph makes the future impossible to change, if it's shown that shit is happening no matter what you do, but the fact it was shown in the first place? Epitaph would show something that's literally never in a billion years going to happen, rather, something that outright cant happen.
It can be used to get some whack as **** situations going, and once shown it's locked in, but Epitaph isnt going to show something that literally cant happen, and a MFTL barely edging out a infinite is one such thing that straight up cant occur.

If that didn't happen, I'd be fine with the 50/50 possibly, but the existence of that makes the 50/50 a 0.

I already told you other reasons of why it could've happened, but you were just yelling "headcanon!" sadly.

 

[Chariot190]

already told you other reasons of why it could've happened, but you were just yelling "headcanon!" sadly.

Yes, because they require numerous assumptions, I can make up somethings too that would justify and explain the scene, the issue is that's all it is, Occam's Razer exists, your other reasons aren't actually solid or concrete enough, what we do know for an absolute fact disagrees with you, of course you could try and explain it in such a way it comes off as different, but the very fact you have to actively do so with a multitude of assumptions and things that aren't actually given a basis for is simply, well, no, I can't agree with that.

 

[SSJRyu1]

Well I more meant if there are two mostly equally likely ratings they go conservative, not like one off ones that are highly unlikely but more conservative.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yes, because they require numerous assumptions, I can make up somethings too that would justify and explain the scene, the issue is that's all it is, Occam's Razer exists, your other reasons aren't actually solid or concrete enough, what we do know for an absolute fact disagrees with you, of course you could try and explain it in such a way it comes off as different, but the very fact you have to actively do so with a multitude of assumptions and things that aren't actually given a basis for is simply, well, no, I can't agree with that.

You talk like they're completely made from nothing, but the issue was that GER was never that clear, nor has confirmations, so the doubt still exists, and thus, can leave to interpretations with a basis, and I've explained why mines are reasonable.

 

[Chariot190]

You talk like they're completely made from nothing, but the issue was that GER was never that clear, nor has confirmations, so the doubt still exists, and thus, can leave to interpretations with a basis, and I've explained why mines are reasonable.

I mean, the GER dual mode attribute thing absolutely is, and the GER was just pretending is a pretty clear example of going against occam's razor even with your point of ******* around.

You have brought a few possibilities that could reasonably be true, but the issue still stands in that they still require multiple assumptions opposed to simply what we see and know for a fact. Is there a basis? Well, at least for a few maybe but having a basis doesn't inherently mean it's ok to actually use either.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, the GER dual mode attribute thing absolutely is, and the GER was just pretending is a pretty clear example of going against occam's razor even with your point of ******* around.

Is completely unrelated, this method is for irl theory stuff, not vague fictional characters.

You have brought a few possibilities that could reasonably be true, but the issue still stands in that they still require multiple assumptions opposed to simply what we see and know for a fact. Is there a basis? Well, at least for a few but having a basis doesn't inherently mean it's ok to actually use either.

And they fit with being applied with a possibly rating, since they still have a basis as you said.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

1)The fate manipulation says otherwise, also you technically say his predictions cant be true or cant show something impossible to happen just to get out of the situation

If that ever had to be shown its meant to happen somehow, thats the power of epitaph make a fated event happen regardless how crazy it is, fate is fate

2)Bro wasnt meant as you thought

3)Meant that just now you brought up that you said for daylight when you didnt initially

Late reply, to last comment of chariot to me, been busy a bit

 

[Chariot190]

Is completely unrelated, this method is for irl theory stuff, not vague fictional characters.

We use Occam's razer all the time dude.

And they fit with being applied with a possibly rating, since they still have a basis as you said.

Having a basis doesnt mean much if to get the result you want you have to make more than just a few assumptions when normally, we would just use what we see and know for a fact. Like, I can do the same to in a way that has basis as to why it absolutely isn't the case, point is, at the end of the day, making a bunch of assumptions is not even half as accurate as just taking the actual hard facts and visual evidence and treating it as we see it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Having a basis doesnt mean much if to get the result you want you have to make more than just a few assumptions when normally, we would just use what we see and know for a fact. Like, I can do the same to in a way that has basis as to why it absolutely isn't the case, point is, at the end of the day, making a bunch of assumptions is not even half as accurate as just taking the actual hard facts and visual evidence and treating it as we see it.

Possibly ratings include these too lol

 

[Chariot190]

The fate manipulation says otherwise, also you technically say his predictions cant be true or cant show something impossible to happen just to get out of the situation

I hope you know there's degrees of fate manip, not all fate manip works the same way, and also, King Crimson doesn't manipulate fate, Epitaph enforces a fate, but he has absolutely zero control over what's shown or what's possible. Epitaph isn't going to show something that is a straight up "cant happen", it can make things impossible to get around, we learned that in the Metallica arc and it's been established further since, but that's about it.

Bro wasnt meant as you thought

So are you saying that there should be hard feelings or?

Meant that just now you brought up that you said for daylight when you didnt initially

Daylight? Im honestly confused, what are you talking about.

Late reply, to last comment of chariot to me, been busy a bit

Im assuming you're trying to say youre busy and this is your last for a bit?

 

[SSJRyu1]

What do the knowledgeable staff members who are present on this thread think at this point?

Putting my stance aside, I know @Eficiente , @Antoniofer both weighed in and both are knowledgeable about the series and the wiki standards. Where do they stand now as the best option? Can somebody ping them to get their take currently, since this is honestly just getting circular.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

I sleep

Wake me up when we are finished

 

[Chariot190]

Possibly ratings include these too lol

Not to this degree, you're going more than a bit overboard in your assumptions. And possibly only works if said assumptions are given in verse or are based directly on a multitude of hard evidence in context. A good chunk of your points are "well this could be true", like, yeah it could it be, but so could a trillion other things and at the end of the day, I could say some completely and utterly whack shit that would still be "possible" and have some basis in truth, but it obviously wouldn't be what we'd use when there's a perfectly good straightforward conclusion based on hard facts and visual evidence that doesn't really on making numerous assumptions to reach a certain conclusion.

since this is honestly just getting circular.

It's been that way since page 1. Also Efi's already been made aware.

 

[Chariot190]

I sleep

Wake me up when we are finished

okey

 

[StrymULTRA]

Not to this degree, you're going more than a bit overboard in your assumptions. And possibly only works if said assumptions are given in verse or are based directly on a multitude of hard evidence in context. A good chunk of your points are "well this could be true", like, yeah it could it be, but so could a trillion other things and at the end of the day, I could say some completely and utterly whack shit that would still be "possible" and have some basis in truth, but it obviously wouldn't be what we'd use when there's a perfectly good straightforward conclusion based on hard facts and visual evidence that doesn't really on making numerous assumptions to reach a certain conclusion.

Strawman af, I explained how, not gave random arguments.

Anyway SSJRyu is right, this has no end and is getting tiring.

 

[LightReinh12345]

I agree with Chariot
Only Assumptions even with some Basis doesnt Qualifying for "possibly "
While there is not much to go with

 

[Chariot190]

Strawman af, I explained how, not gave random arguments.

That isn't a strawman dude, nothing in that post was me twisting what you said, everything I said there was absolutely correct, I can even go and quote you saying as such for the moments I paraphrased you.
Point being, it doesn't matter if you "Explained why", your explanations are to heavily based on assumptions. Yes, your explanations could in theory work but just because it can make sense and would work if true, doesn't mean it is true.
I said it before and I'll say it again, Occam's Razer does exist, yeah, sure, we don't know a drastic amount about GER so some things aren't 100% explained, but that doesn't mean we can just assume things happen or act a certain way just to suit an argument. How many assumptions is to many? Ask yourself that, when you have to go so far to assume things work a certain way and some things happen because of things that aren't actually implied, when in 99% of other situations we would just take what we see and what we know for a fact and draw a conclusion based on that instead, well, that's to far in my opinion.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, possibly ratings work on assumptions which have weight and have some support, and I suggested such, you can't deny them just because they're assumptions despite they have some solid things behind them

 

[Antvasima]

I personally think that SSJRyu1's first post seems to make sense, and that we should preferably remove the excessive speed rating. The same standards have to hold here as everywhere else in the wiki.

Can somebody knowledgeable summarise any further relevant information here please?

Also, I have been told that Chariot190 (or possibly somebody else) has been very excessively hostile towards Ryu in this thread. That has to stop immediately. We have to at least try to be respectful and polite in this community, or its cohesion will start to collapse, and we would be unable to get anything constructive done.

 

[StrymULTRA]

^This, plus the fact that if GER has resistance to Precogn if not under Giorno's control

@Ant check here please, this was already discussed

 

[StrymULTRA]

To all the new stuff coming here, there are the relevant points:

1. GER having Infinite Speed from moving in the Time Erase is invalidated
2. GER is argued being above BIG and MiH's peak speed from the JOJO A-GO!GO! artbook saying that its None stats are given due to them being non-measurable for that standards of the Jojoverse, however is unknown if such was just for the RtZ ability or the whole of GER, that's why I suggested the new rating "At least MFTL, possibly Infinite. Infinite with Return to Zero"
3. However, there's the doubt of if GER was affected from the Time Erasure before the activation of RtZ, which is what's actually discussed.

This too

 

[manu_zarri]

Also, I have been told that Chariot190 (or possibly somebody else) has been very excessively hostile towards Ryu in this thread. That has to stop immediately. We have to at least try to be respectful and polite in this community, or its cohesion will start to collapse, and we would be unable to get anything constructive done.

I mean, watching this, i could see a bit of a warm atmosphere, that makes sense, I imagine it's normal to get angry or bored, after answering the same answer 400 times just because people kept asking question/or using argument that have already been answered