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General Nasuverse Revisions

I just mostly cared that the reason it got such a boost was mentioned so there was no confusions. Of course Bunyan had to be weird after being made with Mud.

Hmmm.. yeah, I am just not sold at all on the protecting the soul stuff. But seems the others agree so it can still be added.

Sadly can't. Don't have my game anymore so can't locate the thingy. But I have the next best thing, lines translated by Castor and Mizukune.

http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...AINS-SPOILERS)/page2575?p=2882689#post2882689

http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...ore-(CONTAINS-SPOILERS)?p=2882704#post2882704
 
What still needs to be done here?
 
I just remember, Rin in UBW was able to walk through the lake that was made up of angra curse, and the master of True Archer in FSF was able to touch it just fine. So other Magi might scale to resistance to curse and curroption.
 
They wouldn't no, never. Rin had to use one of her Gems just to properly protect herself and still was obviously affected to some degree, while True Archer's Master is a rather mentally broken man. Is kinda like Kirei, the Mud just doesn't do anything really to his mind.
 
The master of True Archer uses a twisted form of "domination magecarft" that focuses on the user casting domination spells on oneself. Here are the statements about the effect of the Mud from F/SF (spoiler; magus don't have passive resistance):

"Oh," Francesca nodded, and flashed a malicious grin. "That couldn't be helped. I mean, me and Baz are about the only ones who can handle 'it,' much less grow it, with our egos intact...
"And I don't want to always be touching that repulsive 'mud'! Ahaha!"

==
All of the muck's hosts had been seized by madness. It had ultimately consumed their bodies as well. Bazdilot, however, remained just as he had been before accepting it into his body. In fact, he was apparently nurturing the mud on his own magical energy, increasing its volume. The Scladio Family praised this as proof of Bazdilot's power as a mage, claiming that he had subjected himself to his own magical domination in order to control the mud while preserving his sanity. Faldeus knew better.

It was true that Bazdilot was employing his own magecraft in order to control and cultivate the muck. He must also be maintaining an extraordinary effort to prevent it from dominating his mind. Nevertheless, Faldeus was aware that there was a single mistake in the Scladio Family's accolades.

Bazdilot was not controlling the mud while preserving his sanity; the man called Bazdilot had been mad long before becoming its host — possibly from the very beginning.

==
In contrast to Bazdilot, who kept almost all emotion out of his voice, the homunculus spoke with cheerfulness and a gentle smile on her face.

"Oh, look how muddy you've gotten… You've half-stopped being human, haven't you?

==
[True Caster's illusion/reality wrapping] Around the hole, where there had been nothing but jet black walls of earth, various glowing objects popped into being and vanished just as suddenly in time with his speech. Oni at a banquet; a parade in an abandoned amusement park; children dying of hunger and thirst; an infinite expanse of starry sky; monsters too repulsive to describe; a city so beautiful it could only be described as a land of gold; the figure of a holy woman racing across a wasteland; corpses of knights stretching to the ends of the earth. Every one of them felt real.

It was almost enough to destroy the lesser Scradio mages' sense of self. More than half of completely lost their grips consciousness on the spot. Despite being prevented from using magecraft, however, Bazdilot Cordelion maintained his usual vicious non-expression. Even so, he must have had his hands full controlling the "mud" inside of him, because what looked like black tattoos peeking out of his cuffs could be seen to writhe fiercely on his skin.
 
It is true that he seems to be using his Magecraft, but Faldeus himself is saying point blank that assuming its just that is very wrong and that Baz was from the start a supremely broken person. The very last paragraph mentions he was being prevented from using magecraft and still holding on. Francesca, on the other hand, isn't really different in this aspect.

They get the resistance sure, but there's no way normal mages scale to this, not even close.
 
I believe that Extra and GO Shiki should not be counted in the same Profile as KnK Shiki. As both of them have far greater power levels than the one in KnK.
 
Lifting Strength for A Rank Strength should be upgraded from class 25, based on the feat of True Archer.

Throwing a giant boulder to an elevation where you need to crank your neck to see it should be Class 50, and doing the same with numerous giant boulders where the scene resembles a volcanic eruption should at least be Class K or Class M.

If it is truly implied the hill is the height of a skyscraper, then it is probably class G.

Context of feat

Crystal Hill was the tallest building in Snowfield. It was also a first-class hotel, and home to the largest casino in the city. It was said that the breadth and luxury of its facilities were a match for even the finest Las Vegas casinos.

...

At the wind's center was a single arrow. It was headed toward the top floor of a skyscraper in the heart of Snowfield — Crystal Hill.

...

The man stood on a rise that reached almost the same elevation as the top floor of Crystal Hill. A lean, wiry man, just over two meters tall. His hands clutched a bow. It was larger than an ordinary longbow, but it seemed a little undersized in the tall man's hands.

...

North Snowfield. On the high slope of a ravine.
...
With a malicious grin, Gilgamesh deployed his Gate of Babylon over a wide area of the rise. The entrances to his treasury, deployed so as to surround the archer on all sides, began to twist like a tornado. Then they fired innumerable Noble Phantasms with the force of machine guns, raising a veritable whirlwind of lights and impacts high above the eminence.

...

The sound of the impact seemed like nothing less than an explosion. The archer's body was launched with the force of a bullet to lodge itself in the side of another small eminence, which then began to crumble.
After a moment of silence, a simple fact dominated — the girl's slender arm had sent a man on whom the Noble Phantasms Gilgamesh fired from his Gate of Bayblon had had no effect flying.
The girl glared at the pile of rubble that had buried the archer alive with eyes filled with a powerful hate, then glanced behind her at Tine and Gilgamesh, and declared:
"That fiend is my prey. Do not interfere."

...

That instant, the mysterious Archer, who one blow from the female Heroic Spirit had buried under a mountain of rubble, had sent that rubble flying like a volcanic eruption.
Numerous giant boulders had were flung so high into the air that Tine had to crane her neck to see them. Then several of the stones suddenly shattered, and arrows shrouded in vast quantities of magical energy appeared from among the fragments. The mysterious Archer had flown up with the rubble, and loosed countless arrows from behind the soaring rocks.
The rain of arrows, each one accompanied by its own tornado, sped down at Gilgamesh and the female Heroic Spirit, pulling the shards of the shattered boulders into the swirling vacuums as they came.

...

The female Heroic Spirit held out her right hand beside herself, and a horse appeared there.
She then lightly mounted it, and vigorously road it off up the ravine.
The cloth wrapped around her arm was still overflowing with concentrated divinity. She circulated the potent magical energy into the horse through its bridle. Horse and rider, moving as a single organism, rapidly threaded their way through the rain of gales. Massive chunks of rubble had begun to fall back to earth. She began to gallop lightly over them, eventually riding across even the boulders still in mid air.
Witnessing the female Heroic Spirit traveling backwards up the waterfall of rubble, Tine was sure.
 
I have to unsubscribe due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help after you reach a conclusion.
 
But the Strength Ranks, and Ranks in general, are a scale. True Archer being higher on that scale does not change the baseline requirements.

Also the feats in Strange/Fake tend to contradict their power levels elsewhere. As a mere Servant, outside of the Moon Cell, Gilgamesh should not have that power IIRC. So overall his AP should be treated as an outlier. At least IMO.
 
They don't otherwise show feats of sending eachother flying with that much force, or being capable of throwing boulders that high, in their Servant Forms.

Also, Gilgamesh is even stated to physicaly not be that powerful when compared to other servants, and the majority of his power comes purely from Gate of Babylon. He rarely ever uses his own physical strength. For he is a ranged fighter, who uses his Gate for all things, and sees hand to hand, or any close combat in general, as being distasteful.

" He is about as physically strong as Saber or Berserker, if not weaker, and he would not receive a boost in power from fame due to not being well known in Japan.[25] The main reason for his overwhelming power comes from the sheer number of Noble Phantasms in his possession.", As Stated on Type-Moon Wikia.

His Strength is also a B, not an A.

Images also show that he summons far more weapons at a time in Strange Fake than shown in any other form.

I just can't help but see this as an outlier. Along with Ig-Alima and Sul-Sagana from Fate/Kalied Liner Prisma Illya. Which are far stronger than anything else he has shown bar Ea.

Thus said display of strength shown is not consistant with his own strength.

In their Living Forms, and Moon Cell Forms, they do show such levels, or are at least stated to be at such levels. But the Moon Cell is kind of iffy in terms of power, due to it all happening inside of a digital world.
 
Sending enemies flying is like the AoE fallacy. It doesn't lose validity because it doesn't happen every time, an author isnt thinkng that a dude should be sent flying no matter what he does or how strong he is if a 7-A attack hits him.

Gilgamesh still has a B in strength, what he truly lacks is any skill fighting with a single weapon. And he's only weak compared to the stronger Servants physically.

Inconsequential as well. The amount of weapons Gilgamesh uses is proportional to how serious he is, which he is extremely adamant of in FSN where his pride is in full sway. Barely any Servants can compare with the smaller barrages anyway, why use more?
 
True, true.

I was moreso refering to how far he sent boulders flying with a single strike. As mentioned by ShadowWhoWalks.

Anyway, my main point remains regardless, that one show of power in a rank, does not change the baseline of said rank.

Also what is the AoE fallacy, don't remeber that Acronym.
 
Area of Attack, putting into doubt the power of an attack because it isn't destroying a big area, as should do an attack with the levels of energy we calc for anything tier 8 and above.
 
I'm dumb, I did know that Acronym. Just had a bit of a "brain-fart" of sorts. Was thinking about other things, and the simple things refused to come to mind.
 
Alright got some stuff, for our boy Shirou and King of the Jobbers. From Angra's profile, bolded is what applies:

"The scourge is so strong that it stains all it touches, breaking down their body, mind, and soul, driving them insane with fear and pain. It turns the emotions they feel in death into magical energy to propogate itself. It near inevitably kills anyone it touches, ultimately claiming Kiritsugu Emiya's life years after he was exposed to it. It can, however, be resisted by those with exceptionally powerful wills, such as Shirou Emiya, and Gilgamesh, whose Ego is too strong to be tainted by such an affliction.

Simply, anyone who can resist the Grail mud should have resistance to Curse, Biological, Madness, Fear, and Pain manipulation.

Gil also needs resistance to Curse Manipulation as he does not have it for some reason, when he already should.

This could also scale to Tiamat's Chaos Tide, as Enkidu compares them and considers them similar, but I'll have to find the exact scan of that.
 
Even though I know downscaling is not a thing for hax, kind of, I don't think Shirou Shou fully scale to that. It was for one brief moment of pure will and Shirou himself was sure that if he got trapped again, he wouldn't escape a second time.
 
The fact that Tiamat's mud is part of her authority, does things like restructure targets, Servants on not, on the cellular level to grant them abilities and force them to hate mankind, anr that it isnt a all made.eoth the accumulated grudges and curses ot all humanity.
 
But this has nothing to do with greater effect. Tiamat's mud reconstructs people people's biology, set a geas on the cellular level, and literally churns out more versions of absorbed people with added abilities to boot. The Servants spirit graph itself changes, while Sakura did no such thing to Saber - all changes to parameters and skills are consequence of the overload of mana she got, her armor getting thicker, and her new darker emotions stiffling her charisma and making her stop holding back.

Hers is the sea of life, Angry Manjew is the literal curses of all humanity manifested into a thick magical slushie. They are similar in some stuff, but as far as I can see certainly not the same.
 
Yeah, they are similar in nature, not in potency. But even than there is nuance, as said by Lancelot, Tiamat is far stronger, changing Servants at a more base level than Angra. Polluting their Saint Graph, and imposing upon them a cellular level Geis (Õí®Õƒ║ÕÑæþ┤ä). Fundamentally remaking them into a Child of Tiamat.

Tiamat also has more mud than Angra produces, or at least is shown to produce. Though that is not the only reason for it being more of a threat.

Tiamat also produces the True Ether of the Genesis of the Earth, for it is the Sea from Which Life itself is Sprung. While the Mud of the Grail is more like a manifestation of Sin and Curses, that mixed with the Prana flowing through the Grail, curropting it.

Basically, Tiamat is far more powerful, and is primal, rather than being something borne of Man.
 
Though Shioru did not really resist any of those, he was hit and was in an agony that threatened to burn away his very soul, and was full of a terror that shook his very core.

He did not seem to be that resistant. Only slightly so, and only to it from the Mud due to its nature. So I disagree adding it as a general ability.
 
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