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General Grievous VS Senator Armstrong - General VS Senator

If Grievous doesn't resist heat then he gets fried 9 seconds after the start of the battle, and heat resistence is not listed on his profile
 
Would also be cool to see the infamous feat Grievous has of cutting through LS proof material, as well as knowing how its dura-negation works, because if it's through heat or molecular disruption it won't work
 
Not really, you're the one who has to prove that it is ferrous seeing as 95% of all metals and metal alloys that exist are non ferrous

He does resist heat, as I already explained he sat in the flaming cockpit of a burning starfighter and was not burned

Proof he used magnetism to magnetism manip Sam himself instead of just stuff in the environment?
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Not really, you're the one who has to prove that it is ferrous seeing as 95% of all metals and metal alloys that exist are non ferrous
He does resist heat, as I already explained he sat in the flaming cockpit of a burning starfighter and was not burned

Proof he used magnetism to magnetism manip Sam himself instead of just stuff in the environment?
Click to expand...
And again with the shifting of the burden of proof. Did you even read what i wrote? Duranium is described as a "very strong alloy", and ferrous alloys are SIGNIFICANLY stronger than non-ferrous alloys, so it's far more unlikely to find a non-ferrous ferrous alloy that is stronger than a ferrous one rather than the opposite.

And again, i can't find that feat, and it's not listed on his profile, can you provide a source?

Sam is completely human, good luck using magnetism on that, "if he can lift non-ferrous alloys which are non-magnetic than he can also lift a human who is non-magnetic", not really, as this leads back to the fact that non-ferrous metals still have 2 types of magnetism on them, which makes them by default more magnetic than a normal human
 
Twellas said:
His amp is listed under "aura", look at it.

Ridiculously is a very strong word, especially when we have no idea how he actually scales compared to Anakin, and you are assuming that the Padawan performed half of that feat, which is not only unlikely, but also a complete assumption.

How many times do i have to tell you that i NEVER, NEVER talked about Armstrong's own skill? What i said at least 10 times at this point is that HE CAN DEAL WITH MORE SKILLED OPPONENTS even when he doesn't have neither the speed nor the strength advantage (again, look at the Post-Murasama fight, where he fought Raiden on fairly equal terms despite Raiden being far, FAR more skilled, faster, stronger and constantly growing in strength. What i said is that he already fought a stronger and more skilled opponent fairly evenly, and said opponent only managed to win because he had a troupe of people telling him to target Armstrong's weak point, something Grievous would have no way of knowing.

Again, he throws around objects made of non-ferrous alloys, which is the same kind of material you claim Grievous is made out of

On a sidenote, couldn't find any proof of Grievous resisting heat, where is it from?
Click to expand...
'Aura (As seen here)' with no mention of a speed amp, no speed amplification in his powers section, and no mention of a speed amp in his speed section. Id recommend a crt because nothing implies he has a speed amp.

You were the one to use the word first. Obi wan stomped anakin and couldnt scratch grievous. And hey if youd like to argue that jarrus, who at the time was just a knight, scales to the feat entirely and this almost wveryone in the verse including grievous vastly scales above 542 kilotons instead then by all means go for it.

Then why do you continuously bring up the argument that he 'dealt with more skilled opponents before'? Once again, he was only able to deal woth raiden because he was stronger and more durable, so raiden couldnt hurt him. And seriously? You think grievous doesnt know that the heart is a weak point on a human? Also im 99% sure armstrong isnt getting back up from bisection or decapitation.
 
Literally just look at the video and you can see that he attacks faster after using the aura, might actually make a CRT on that, along with a few missing abilities for some MGS2 characters.

Obi Wan absolutely DIDN'T stomp Anakin, Obi winning had absolutely nothing to do with AP and they fought evenly throughout the fight, with Anakin constantly pushing him and Obi Wan being on the defensive. Never said he scales entirely to the feat, what i said is that you are assuming that a padawan performed half of a feat that is way below his tier.

I bring it up because it's your argument, "Grievous is more skilled, which is going to give him an advantage". And why, in god's name do you keep beinging up pre-murasama Raiden? Seriously mate, it's at least 5 times that i tell you that I'm talking about post murasama Raiden, are you doing this on purpose? You know Armstrong isn't even close to what Grievous would recognize as a "human", right? And if we wanna talk about human weak points then why the heart exactly?

Would be cool if you actually showed proof of LS being able to bypass nanomachines, since you keep assuming that they do with no solid evidence backing it up.
 
Then make the crt because the wiki rules prohibit the use of things that arent on the profile. I'm going to do the same for grievous' heat resistance.

No matter how you cut it grievous scales massively above the feat as it was performed by a padawan and a relatively out of training knight. 271 kilotons is the lowball.

Because it is an advantage. If armstrong tries to fight grievous the same way he initially fought raiden hes going to be cut to ribbons because his opponent will be stronger than himself from the start instead of weaker. And you know that there are very few humans in star wars but they all have hearts or heart-esque organs/devices as weak points right? And i say the heart because thats armstrongs weak point.

I will post the clips of him doing so when i get home from work.
 
Adem Warlock69 said:
Obi-Wan and Sith Anakin are equal (In Canon) cause they stalemated with their Force pushes.

Tho Sith Anakin scales above those two Jedi
Click to expand...
Who in turn scale above the majoeity of other masters who scale above knights and padawans
 
Okay, so I just read through this whole thing and I'll try to provide an outsider perspective to keep things on track.

So the main issues I've seen being actively debated are:

Can lightsabers cut through Armstrong's nanomachines?

I couldn't approach this by comparing lightsabers to HF Blades since LSs use extreme heat through the plasma to ignore durability while HFs use vibrations and quantum manipulation. Looking back through Revengeance, Raiden took on two opponents with plasma cutters, the customized RAY and EXCELSUS, and he could take blasts from both (should probably be added as a resistance in a CRT for both). It seems likely that Armstrong's nanomachines could do the same. However, as shown in the back half of the Armstrong fight, if he's extremely focused, Armstrong doesn't harden his entire body and leaves open areas (Raiden punching him in the kidney when they lock arms, punching him in the face when it isn't harden in the one QTE, stabbing him through the stomach because it wasn't hardened, etc.) So, do I think lightsabers can cut through hardened limbs? No, they seem to resist plasma. Do I think that Grievous won't be able to find an opening to cut him up? No, if he times his slashes right (like Sam did) or uses the extra arm surprise to slice an exposed spot, I think he'll have a shot.

Is Grievous' AP enough to get through Armstrong's massive Durability boost?

To be clear, I'm assuming it's a physical blow for this and not a lightsaber slash.

Anyway, let's say that the scaling previously mentioned for Grievous and he's above 271 KT to such a degree that he no-sells a hit that strong. I know an AP gap of 7.5x is necessary for a one-shot, but I'm not sure if the same amount applies to no-sell a hit. For the sake of argument, let's say that it's 3x at minimum and 5x at maximum (correct me if I'm wrong). So it's 813 KT at min and 1.355 MT at best (Low 7-B for the latter). Meanwhile, taking the 7x Ripper Mode bonus into account, Armstrong is at 847 KT for durability, which means he's either able to take some blows for a while or he's overpowered. Again, correct me if my no-sell multipliers are off, but based on my current info, Grievous should have a chance.

Can magnetism work against Grievous?

Going over the previous stuff listed, it seems that regardless of the type of metal, ferrous or not, Armstrong and those like him can control it. However, it doesn't seem to be in character for him to use it on his opponents. From what I remember, he only used his magnetism to get helicopters charge up his nanomachines in the Sam fight since he didn't have an MG lying around. If he would normally pull a Magneto to fight, why did he physically throw the legs of EXCELSUS at Raiden? Even Monsoon, who uses it as his main gimmick, didn't attempt to use it on Raiden once. So unless they're on a cliff and Armstrong doesn't have arms anymore, I don't think he's going to use it.


So there's my thoughts currently
 
Sorvoe551 said:
Okay, so I just read through this whole thing and I'll try to provide an outsider perspective to keep things on track.
So the main issues I've seen being actively debated are:

Can lightsabers cut through Armstrong's nanomachines?

I couldn't approach this by comparing lightsabers to HF Blades since LSs use extreme heat through the plasma to ignore durability while HFs use vibrations and quantum manipulation. Looking back through Revengeance, Raiden took on two opponents with plasma cutters, the customized RAY and EXCELSUS, and he could take blasts from both (should probably be added as a resistance in a CRT for both). It seems likely that Armstrong's nanomachines could do the same. However, as shown in the back half of the Armstrong fight, if he's extremely focused, Armstrong doesn't harden his entire body and leaves open areas (Raiden punching him in the kidney when they lock arms, punching him in the face when it isn't harden in the one QTE, stabbing him through the stomach because it wasn't hardened, etc.) So, do I think lightsabers can cut through hardened limbs? No, they seem to resist plasma. Do I think that Grievous won't be able to find an opening to cut him up? No, if he times his slashes right (like Sam did) or uses the extra arm surprise to slice an exposed spot, I think he'll have a shot.

Is Grievous' AP enough to get through Armstrong's massive Durability boost?

To be clear, I'm assuming it's a physical blow for this and not a lightsaber slash.

Anyway, let's say that the scaling previously mentioned for Grievous and he's above 271 KT to such a degree that he no-sells a hit that strong. I know an AP gap of 7.5x is necessary for a one-shot, but I'm not sure if the same amount applies to no-sell a hit. For the sake of argument, let's say that it's 3x at minimum and 5x at maximum (correct me if I'm wrong). So it's 813 KT at min and 1.355 MT at best (Low 7-B for the latter). Meanwhile, taking the 7x Ripper Mode bonus into account, Armstrong is at 847 KT for durability, which means he's either able to take some blows for a while or he's overpowered. Again, correct me if my no-sell multipliers are off, but based on my current info, Grievous should have a chance.

Can magnetism work against Grievous?

Going over the previous stuff listed, it seems that regardless of the type of metal, ferrous or not, Armstrong and those like him can control it. However, it doesn't seem to be in character for him to use it on his opponents. From what I remember, he only used his magnetism to get helicopters charge up his nanomachines in the Sam fight since he didn't have an MG lying around. If he would normally pull a Magneto to fight, why did he physically throw the legs of EXCELSUS at Raiden? Even Monsoon, who uses it as his main gimmick, didn't attempt to use it on Raiden once. So unless they're on a cliff and Armstrong doesn't have arms anymore, I don't think he's going to use it.


So there's my thoughts currently
Click to expand...
Ok, let me just say a few things

Armstrong's nanomachines have no limitation whatsoever in regards to surface covered, this is demonstrated by how he routinely turns his whole body solid during the fight. The reason why we don't see the hardening during the QTEs is because they are made with the game's own enggine, whhich simply doesn't show Armstrong's nanomachines harden in response to Raiden's attacks, same goes with the Murasama stabbing thhrough his gutl, there is simply no canonical reason for why his Nanomachines wouldn't have hardened on their own. The more logical reason is simply that Raiden's Reactive Power Level lead him to be so muchh stronger than Armstrong himself that he could hit hard enough with the Murasama to pierce him. And about Sam's timing the slash, Sam didn't merely "time" the slash, Sam used an attack that surpassed Armstrong's and Sam's own speed by more than 10 times, Raiden himself couldn't outspeed Armstrong's nanomachines while going 10 times faster than Armstrong with BM, so it's practically impossible for Grievous to do what Sam did.

About AP, if we take RM into account, then we also gotta remember that Armstrong scales to 847kt normally by being above Monsoon, Raiden can also use RM on top of that during the second half of the fight (but there is no proof he canonically did).

Armstrong doesn't need to "use the electromagnetism on his opponent", because it's AOE, he doesn't need to target his opponent directly in order for the magnetism to work. he doesn't start off with it of course, but he still uses it, even against people he knows for a fact are not even comparable to him in terms of power
 
WeeklyBattles said:
Then make the crt because the wiki rules prohibit the use of things that arent on the profile. I'm going to do the same for grievous' heat resistance.
No matter how you cut it grievous scales massively above the feat as it was performed by a padawan and a relatively out of training knight. 271 kilotons is the lowball.

Because it is an advantage. If armstrong tries to fight grievous the same way he initially fought raiden hes going to be cut to ribbons because his opponent will be stronger than himself from the start instead of weaker. And you know that there are very few humans in star wars but they all have hearts or heart-esque organs/devices as weak points right? And i say the heart because thats armstrongs weak point.

I will post the clips of him doing so when i get home from work.
Click to expand...
The difference here is that Armstrong's amp is shown on his profile indirectly and it's not all that relevant to the fight, whereas Grievous' is essential and is nowhere on his profile.
 
@Twellas

I know there's no limitation, but there are several times within the fight and cutscenes where Armstrong takes conscioius control of them and only hardens part of his body. For example, when he was punching Raiden into EXCELSUS, he only hardened his arms and pecs because those are the muscles associated with punching. Same when he tried to grapple Raiden after he was stabbed, only that group was hardened.

The idea that they didn't show it all hardening because it was in engine doesn't make sense to me because they rendered him completely black multiple times in the fight and them not rendering it to save time/money and going "oh, it's there, you just can't see it" doesn't seem like something Platinum would do. Right before Raiden stabs him, you do that BM reaction to his punches; if you look at his arms, you can see that the blows actually shaved off some skin and it remains for the remainder of the fight. Why would a company who would put such effort into a detail like that cut a corner in such an obvious way?

The idea of the second half of the fight is Raiden's fighting smarter since he's calmed down and has a better sword. If you're disarmed by Armstrong and try to punch him, it still does minimal damage since he's just allowing the nanomachines to do their job. However, every single time Raiden does major damage in a QTE with a punch or a kick, it's when Armstrong is consciously controlling them for a specific task and Raiden hits a certain area that isn't hardened. It seems to be like breathing: it'll go automatically if you're not focused on it, but you have to make a conscious effort to do it once you are.

However, this whole thing is still for the one win scenario where Grievous catches Armstrong off guard with a surprise extra two limbs and gets him during a scenario like I described. I'm merely trying to establish that it's a possibility. It's unlikely, but it should still be possible. If BM Raiden couldn't keep up with the hardening, then it reduces Grievous' wincons from three to two, but I still think the one is possible. Low percentage, yes, but still possible.

Concerning the AP thing, yes, I said Armstrong scales to 847 KT because of the RM boost. I was more proposing whether doing an "AP = Dura" for Grievous because of no-selling Obi-Wan would allow him to overpower Armstrong normally. Based on my high-end calc, yes he can. Granted, still not sure whether my idea for the multiplier was right or not yet.

Cool, he still doesn't actively do it against cyborgs other than when he used the helicopters on Sam, which was basically "we need to give health packs to the player and we can reuse those animations from Monsoon." Again, it doesn't seem in character for him to do it since he physically lifted and threw the legs of EXCELSUS and Monsoon, who canonically uses magnetism a lot, doesn't use it on Raiden's body. It's not whether it's possible, it's whether he would actually do it, which doesn't seem likely.
 
THE WIKI ATE MY ******* ANSWER AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
 
@Sheev Lightsabers are inherently unwieldy and gyroscopically unbalanced weapons, making them virtually impossible to wield by anyone who isnt a Force user without being just as lethal to themselves as they are to whoever's they're fighting. Not only is grievous not a force user, but he is cut off from the force in its entirety, yet he is skilled enough to wield four simultaneously. Lightsaber combat styles normally take decades to master, with each style focusing on a completely different method of combat playing to a person's strengths in combat, which is why it's rare for even jedi masters to be capable of using more than two. Grievous knows a bare minimum of four.
 
Decades to attain full mastery isn't exactly unheard of for irl martial arts, either. I'd wager that a kenjutsu master on the level of Sam is not only as skilled as a Jedi Master, but also smarter for not sinking so much time into what is clearly a cumbersome and inefficient weapon
 
Sorvoe551 said:
@Twellas
I know there's no limitation, but there are several times within the fight and cutscenes where Armstrong takes conscioius control of them and only hardens part of his body. For example, when he was punching Raiden into EXCELSUS, he only hardened his arms and pecs because those are the muscles associated with punching. Same when he tried to grapple Raiden after he was stabbed, only that group was hardened.

The idea that they didn't show it all hardening because it was in engine doesn't make sense to me because they rendered him completely black multiple times in the fight and them not rendering it to save time/money and going "oh, it's there, you just can't see it" doesn't seem like something Platinum would do. Right before Raiden stabs him, you do that BM reaction to his punches; if you look at his arms, you can see that the blows actually shaved off some skin and it remains for the remainder of the fight. Why would a company who would put such effort into a detail like that cut a corner in such an obvious way?

The idea of the second half of the fight is Raiden's fighting smarter since he's calmed down and has a better sword. If you're disarmed by Armstrong and try to punch him, it still does minimal damage since he's just allowing the nanomachines to do their job. However, every single time Raiden does major damage in a QTE with a punch or a kick, it's when Armstrong is consciously controlling them for a specific task and Raiden hits a certain area that isn't hardened. It seems to be like breathing: it'll go automatically if you're not focused on it, but you have to make a conscious effort to do it once you are.

However, this whole thing is still for the one win scenario where Grievous catches Armstrong off guard with a surprise extra two limbs and gets him during a scenario like I described. I'm merely trying to establish that it's a possibility. It's unlikely, but it should still be possible. If BM Raiden couldn't keep up with the hardening, then it reduces Grievous' wincons from three to two, but I still think the one is possible. Low percentage, yes, but still possible.

Concerning the AP thing, yes, I said Armstrong scales to 847 KT because of the RM boost. I was more proposing whether doing an "AP = Dura" for Grievous because of no-selling Obi-Wan would allow him to overpower Armstrong normally. Based on my high-end calc, yes he can. Granted, still not sure whether my idea for the multiplier was right or not yet.

Cool, he still doesn't actively do it against cyborgs other than when he used the helicopters on Sam, which was basically "we need to give health packs to the player and we can reuse those animations from Monsoon." Again, it doesn't seem in character for him to do it since he physically lifted and threw the legs of EXCELSUS and Monsoon, who canonically uses magnetism a lot, doesn't use it on Raiden's body. It's not whether it's possible, it's whether he would actually do it, which doesn't seem likely.
Click to expand...
The wiki just doesn't want me to give an extensive answer to this comment, it literally just tells me that there are problems
 
You seem to think that Armstrong using his NMs conciously shuts off their automatic functionality, but there is ABSOLUTELY no canonical proof of that, and it would be a MAJOR plot point brought up by Dok himself. but that simply doesn't happen.
And we can't even say that Armstrong was caught by surprise during the QTEs because in most of them we see that Armstrong has plenty of time to react (in the "gut punch" one Armstrong literally looks at Raiden's arm a full second before he starts punching), there is simply no reason to think that Armstrong wouldn't harden there, as he had the time and the nanomachines to do so, but still, Raiden harms him and we don't see hardening, how do you explain this? Saying that the game simply doesn't display hardening from Raiden's hits while using the game's own engine is the only logical explaination.

About the cut corners, you have no idea how troubled MGR's development was, with it changing hands between Platinum and Kojima, it almost being cancelled multiple times and changing name thrice, in the end Platinum had to scrap the story and game engine because it was unplayable on Fox engine. This type of rush is clearly evident in the many cut corners in the story (That whole ridiculous "mach 3" thing Sundowner says, the child brains being completely irrelevant to Armstrong's whole plan, Jack The Ripper being dropped almost immediately, none of the characters being actually explored), it's a miracle this game came out this good, and it's nowhere near a stretch to say that they would overlook such a minute detail, especially since there is no other explaination that doesn't either completely contradict what we are told or make up stuff we were never told.
 
If attacks that were 10x faster than Armstrong himself couldn't bypass the NMs, Grievous sure as hell isn't going to be able to do it, MAYBE if that whole "him using the NMs consciously stops the automatic function" were true then it might happen, but since there is no canonical proof whatsoever backing it up, it's not a factor.
 
For some ******* reason the wiki won't let me post the last part of the answer, just that part, i'll sum, it up.

As i already said, Armstrong's electromagnetism wouldn't work on cyborgs. The whole " it doesn't seem in character for him to do it" thing gets countered by him literally just doing it, which automatically makes it in-character by definition, the "ulterior motives" the developers might have had are completely irrelevant, the fact still stands that he used that ability, which makes in in-character for him to use it (not spam it nor start off with it, just use it).
 
If the lightsabers can't cut through nanomachines, I believe Grievous could pull a Nahdar Vebb and shoot Armstrong with his blaster while the nanomachines are busy blocking the saber blades. It (Sort of) worked for Sam
 
Weekly, are you just gonna keep on bringing up points that have been debunked ad nauseam?

The reason why LSs wouldn't be able to cut NMs is that their dura-negging method is heat, which Armstrong resists.

And again with that "his nanomachines tire him" crap, it was NEVER even hinted at in the game, his fight with Raiden lasted a few hours and he had absolutely no problem despite spamming his nanomachines, so no, Armstrong will not get tired out by them. And why are we even taking Kojima's word here? He didn't participate in the development nor the writing of the story, he barely supervised the thing, so why do we take his word over what is shown and stated in the game? Especially when the fact that Raiden could just outlast him would have been a major plot point that trivialized the need for the Murasama.
 
UmbraSnivy said:
If the lightsabers can't cut through nanomachines, I believe Grievous could pull a Nahdar Vebb and shoot Armstrong with his blaster while the nanomachines are busy blocking the saber blades. It (Sort of) worked for Sam
Click to expand...
That's not how Armstrong's nanomachines work, he has them all over his body at all times (Dok states that he has a "nanomachine body"), you can't bypass them by hitting in various spots at the same time, because there will always be Nanomachines ready to harden, no matter where you try to hit him. What Sam did was outspeeding the hardening, and no, Grievous cannot do that because Sam needed the Laido, which is a more than 10x his normal speed and Raiden's RMBM couldn't do it despite it being a 10x boost. Grievous outmaneuvering the Nanomachines is out of the question
 
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