General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Deagonx]

I don't understand what you mean about aspects. The Swamp Thing story concretely shows that the Light is in Heaven, and Williamson relies on that. The Light is clearly meant to be a conception of the standard Abrahamic god in that story, which means its the Presence. Lucifer (vol 2) and (vol 3) also refers to the Great Darkness as the opposite of the Presence.

You can call it headcanon but I don't consider that persuasive.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't understand what you mean about aspects. The Swamp Thing story concretely shows that the Light is in Heaven, and Williamson relies on that. The Light is clearly meant to be a conception of the standard Abrahamic god in that story, which means its the Presence.

What do you mean, it concretely show it? The Presence wasn’t even referenced by name. Williamson is writing from that old gothic storyline but that same story never mentions of the Presence hence we see later on when the Parliaments teamed up to replace and usurp the Voice, an aspect of God that they serve that lives in Heaven.

The Presence isn’t depicted as Abrahamic all the time. Matteis more so goes with a Brahman conception as the Ultimate Reality. The easiest way to understand the Presence is being accredited as the Judeo-Christian God which both Scott and Williamson do not adhere to. This is why Scott says the Presence lives without the Collective Unconcious and he has many faces across religions as we’ve seen in Phantom Stranger.

Lucifer (vol 2) and (vol 3) also refers to the Great Darkness as the opposite of the Presence.

Lucifer Vol.2 by Black and Richard has not mentioned this. As for Watters depiction clearly entails that Lucifer was “created” to be the shadow to God’s light to give him an identity. We see he doesn’t need Lucifer rather he just needed an opposition to define him as a “being.”

The only other Lucifer story that mentions this was #75 of Lucifer as when Lucifer tell him that Yahweh expects him to be some sort of shadow but that’s in reference to God and Devil, not Light and Darkness.

Plus, that Lucifer story is only in continuity in the Sandman: Universe which can work with Dark Frontier in certain instances, but there are still some difference. A short cameo of Lucifer and the writer Dans Watter isn’t saying that Lucifer is the Darkness. Even if he were that’s only to contrast God, as Mazikeen is literally described as a “darkness” of rot and warmth and both came from the Void where Lucifer came into being.

You can call it headcanon but I don't consider that persuasive.

I don’t need to persuade you. Which would be useless because I’m pretty sure you won’t change your view on this.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't understand what you mean about aspects. The Swamp Thing story concretely shows that the Light is in Heaven, and Williamson relies on that. The Light is clearly meant to be a conception of the standard Abrahamic god in that story, which means its the Presence. Lucifer (vol 2) and (vol 3) also refers to the Great Darkness as the opposite of the Presence.

You can call it headcanon but I don't consider that persuasive.

For the record, while #50 of Swamp Thing shows the light in heaven, ST refers to god in #75 as that something which is beyond thought, beyond dualities, showing "god" as completely above the conflict of light and dark.

 

[Spilxson2]

For the record, while #50 of Swamp Thing shows the light in heaven, ST refers to god in #75 as that something which is beyond thought, beyond dualities, showing "god" as completely above the conflict of light and dark.

I don't know if this is derailing or not but can you tell me where your profile picture is from?

 

[Spilxson2]

Also, Batman's profile is still at 4-B with preparation for being comparable to Superman even though Superman is 3-C now. Someone should probably unlock his profile

 

[Deagonx]

ST refers to god in #75 as that something which is beyond thought, beyond dualities, showing "god" as completely above the conflict of light and dark.

I'll have to take a look at it and refresh my memory, but in any case as it pertains to Williamson, he clearly focused on the Great Darkness storyline and portrayed the Overvoid as the Light in Heaven, specifically.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'll have to take a look at it and refresh my memory, but in any case as it pertains to Williamson, he clearly focused on the Great Darkness storyline and portrayed the Overvoid as the Light in Heaven, specifically.

I guess, I ain't following that storyline (because it goes against what the Darkness was in the first place)

But the Light isn't the true god for the purposes of Swamp Thing/Vertigo.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I guess, I ain't following that storyline (because it goes against what the Darkness was in the first place)

But the Light isn't the true god for the purposes of Swamp Thing/Vertigo.

I agree. Williamson is adding some extra to the story that was not the case during the original run.

Deagon mentions the Overvoid to be the Light in Heaven which is a retcon to both Metal and Final Crisis depiction of the Overvoid and this new Light of Creation being the Overvoid should be treated as only that and not the Presence. Especially given that most depiction follows the route that that the God would have created the Light, which is ironic since Deagon said the Presence is the Abrahamic God, whom should have created the light and darkness.

Plus, the Light couldn’t have naturally spawn and the scan kinds of mention that “later” the Light came as a small speck that expanded largely. There’s no way to create the notion that the Light was self-creating nor did the Darkness create it and the only other logical route would the Presence prior to manifestation.

 

[Deagonx]

this new Light of Creation being the Overvoid should be treated as only that and not the Presence

If the Light of Creation is reaching a hand out from Heaven to confront the Great Darkness, its the Presence. I don't see any other reason why it would otherwise be associated with Heaven in any way.

Especially given that most depiction follows the route that that the God would have created the Light, which is ironic since Deagon said the Presence is the Abrahamic God, whom should have created the light and darkness.

In Lucifer (vol 3), Lucifer remarked that the Presence created him to define Himself. Perfect Darkness to contrast his Perfect Light. So it's not the case that the Presence necessarily created the light. He is the light.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If the Light of Creation is reaching a hand out from Heaven to confront the Great Darkness, its the Presence. I don't see any other reason why it would otherwise be associated with Heaven in any way.

An aspect of the Presence would still make more sense and not the entire being. Kuuzo did a good job explaining the aspect that live in Primum Mobile as the “presence” of God. While, the entire entity true nature is far beyond both Light and Darkness which makes sense in context of Swamp Thing #75. Plus, the Presence wouldn’t be eternal, if he was the Light since that wasn’t all naturally existing since it was only nothing for a while.

In Lucifer (vol 3), Lucifer remarked that the Presence created him to define Himself. Perfect Darkness to contrast his Perfect Light. So it's not the case that the Presence necessarily created the light. He is the light.

Except later in the story(Devil at Heart) we see that he loses his identity when Lucifer erased himself from the Book. The Light is to be contratsed by the Dark, that’s what give him an identity without it, then his just something without form.

This more so eludes that, he made Lucifer to contest his light as a being made of light to let his creations distinguish him as a being. There still was a time before light and Lucifer and God still predates both, so he exist as something prior to doing that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Except later in the story(Devil at Heart) we see that he loses his identity when Lucifer erased himself from the Book. The Light is to be contratsed by the Dark, that’s what give him an identity without it, then his just something without form.

This is correct in the context of ST #50 as well. The entire story revolved around the purpose of the Darkness, only after ST explained his own perspective of duality did Light and Dark embraced in perpetual stalemate, giving meaning to each other.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Recommendations for skilled tier 6C, high 6A or 5C dc characters that i can make a match for?

 

[Spilxson2]

Recommendations for skilled tier 6C, high 6A or 5C dc characters that i can make a match for?

Superman probably

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Superman probably

he lost already
Anyone else?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

doctor manhattan

He isn’t in any of those tiers.

 

[Robo432343]

He isn’t in any of those tiers.

.
i was joking

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

.
i was joking

I know and it was very…..good……

 

[Robo432343]

thanks

 

[Averroes1]

where the 1-A revisions at

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

anti monitor is a 6 dimensional being but has High 1-C AP?
in a vs match, we don't treat him as an 11 dimensional or anything, just 11D attack potency right?

That’s because him being 6D isn’t referring to spatial dimensions.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

he would still be a higher dimensional being to regular humans right?

Yes.

 

[Deagonx]

For the record, while #50 of Swamp Thing shows the light in heaven, ST refers to god in #75 as that something which is beyond thought, beyond dualities, showing "god" as completely above the conflict of light and dark.

It turns out Alan Moore didn't write #75. Not saying that makes the info invalid at all, but that would likely explain the discrepancy.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It’s in reference to his work. Though, Alan Moore doesn’t have a cosmology per se within the split. So, it wouldn’t really matter to those who use that or not, but the information isn’t really contradicted and most likely depict a composite Godhead.

 

[Deagonx]

As for Watters depiction clearly entails that Lucifer was “created” to be the shadow to God’s light to give him an identity. We see he doesn’t need Lucifer rather he just needed an opposition to define him as a “being.”

The point here is that Watters run depicts the Great Darkness as the opposite of the "Light."

And you haven't addressed the fact that the "Light" is in Heaven, which is the most direct evidence that the Light is meant to be understood as the Presence.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

And you haven't addressed the fact that the "Light" is in Heaven, which is the most direct evidence that the Light is meant to be understood as the Presence.

The Lucifer story is its own thing and for good reasons.

As for your point on the “Light” being the Presence then what would we make of it prior to the Light? The Presence couldn’t have created himself to repent something dualistic when its nature is meant to be beyond opposite and all dualities. An aspect of God/Presence lives in Heaven as his Omnipresence permeates all of Creation. There never is one point where we see the true nature of the Presence other than physical manifestations it takes up that we would refer to as lesser aspect of its truer self.

I thought his was obvious since it’s been made clear several times, the Presence worms through aspect within his Creation which includes Angels and Heaven. Even Elaine with the Dunamis Demiurgos cannot comprehend his true self.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't follow. You're saying that the Light is not the Presence and is unrelated to the Presence. What is your explanation for the Light being in Heaven?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't follow. You're saying that the Light is not the Presence and is unrelated to the Presence. What is your explanation for the Light being in Heaven?

I never said it wasn’t the Presence in that manner. What I said is the Light is an aspect of the Presence and a part of it as is the Voice, the Word, and multitude of aspect it takes for his creation to comprehend its infinite nature.

So, the Light of Creation as I would make it was created by the Presence in the absolute nothing which became the Great Darkness after creating the Light that would contrast the Darkness. Like how Scott depicts the Presence being the direct manifestation of the Presence in the physical reality when it needs to be made or rebooted.

 

[Deagonx]

I never said it wasn’t the Presence in that manner. What I said is the Light is an aspect of the Presence and a part of it as is the Voice, the Word, and multitude of aspect it takes for his creation to comprehend its infinite nature.

If your whole point this time was that the Light is an aspect of the Presence, then I don't think we have any significant disagreement.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If your whole point this time was that the Light is an aspect of the Presence, then I don't think we have any significant disagreement.

Yes, and an aspect of God is still God but I think differentiating them not as separate beings but in terms of power is what I think is coherent. If we scale the Light to the Darkness then the Presence > Darkness = Light.

My problem is that it gives this wrong sense of impression when it comes to the Presence. We’ve seen in Swamp Thing mentioned by John that it knew the Cult would rise the Great Darkness and it already anticipated the coming of it. Given the context of #75 of Swamp Thing, I think it’s clear the Presence true self is beyond any duality and opposite and it could fully well stop the Darkness, buts its aspect the “Light” in Heaven made a truce to form a unity which was planned from the get-go by it.

Either way, this is a sore topic and I’ll leave it at that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It turns out Alan Moore didn't write #75. Not saying that makes the info invalid at all, but that would likely explain the discrepancy.

Rick Veitch worked closely with Moore throughout his entire run.

Edit: In fact, I just checked #50. Veitch is among the credits for the issue. So there's really not a discrepancy there, Williamson simply did not understand the story/introduced stuff not truly alluded to.

 

[Arceus0x]

Idk if I can ask this here but why is Amazo just 5-B? Didn't he neg solar system busting rockets? And the whole thing with Amazo 2 nuking an entire multiverse? I jusst looked around the pages and saw nothing related to this. What's up with that?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

I'm wondering if I could get brief input on something.

So I took a glance at John Constantine's profile, and I noticed these were his AP justifications:

Building level (Cut off the head of one vampire then fought and killed some more, with vampires being strong enough to throw cars[1]. Those vampires had their strength increased by Cain, and were able to restrain and threaten Batgirl albeit in a group. Should be comparable to his durability), up to at least Solar System level (Hurt I, Vampire, who stomped Apollo[41]. Madame Xanadu does not have the power to contrast John's magic[1]. Was considered to be among the five magicians on Earth who could contribute to a powerful spell meant to save the Earth, implying him to be at least somewhat comparable to Dr. Fate and Zatanna, though he is certainly weaker than either of them[72]. Hurt Frankenstein and Black Orchid with a magic attack[50]), possibly higher (Knows a spell "powerful enough to kill a god", who he believed might stop The Upside-Down Man, though it ultimately failed to scratch him. Still, it should be much stronger than any other attack of his[73]) with magic

Am I the only one who doesn't think he should have a possibly higher rating? I thought we usually use higher to indicate AP's ridiculously above the tier baseline, often to the point of reaching higher tiers. If the scans and justifications both admit that John's god-killing spell didn't so much as lay a scratch on UDM, what's the basis for assuming that the spell could so much as possibly put John above the baseline with his magic? I don't see how that feat's quantifiable enough to extrapolate to higher tiers or ratings above the baseline, given the spell's only feat is a glaring anti-feat against its fundamental description.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Am I the only one who doesn't think he should have a possibly higher rating? I thought we usually use higher to indicate AP's ridiculously above the tier baseline, often to the point of reaching higher tiers. If the scans and justifications both admit that John's god-killing spell didn't so much as lay a scratch on UDM, what's the basis for assuming that the spell could so much as possibly put John above the baseline with his magic? I don't see how that feat's quantifiable enough to extrapolate to higher tiers or ratings above the baseline, given the spell's only feat is a glaring anti-feat against its fundamental description.

I guess that direct spell shouldn’t be indicative of him getting a “possibly higher” part unless we have concrete evidence. So yeah, it’s pretty pointless.

 

[Deagonx]

Rick Veitch worked closely with Moore throughout his entire run.

Edit: In fact, I just checked #50. Veitch is among the credits for the issue. So there's really not a discrepancy there, Williamson simply did not understand the story/introduced stuff not truly alluded to.

It could've been ignorance (Williamson not being familiar with the full run) but it also may have been intentional. He was combining several different cosmologies at once. The Great Darkness predating the Overvoid is also not really representative if Morrison's take on it, of course.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

It could've been ignorance (Williamson not being familiar with the full run) but it also may have been intentional. He was combining several different cosmologies at once. The Great Darkness predating the Overvoid is also not really representative if Morrison's take on it, of course.

I brought this logic long ago and why Morrison Cosmology should just be a separate thing.

I’m very sure that Williamson didn’t know about this. It’s evident since everyone refers to the battle between duality but never who exists beyond both. You’ll rarely see people talk about this being, if ever like the Smile Behind the Universe.

 

[Averroes1]

why don't we just split williamson again please

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I, honestly believe that each author could have their own solo Cosmology page. Williamson and Snyder/Tynion isn’t so bad but there still are difference that can warrant it. However, the gap of logic between Morrison and Snyder/Tynion IV almost guarantee it should. Realistically, only characters like the Monitors make it between both despite having difference origin, power, and hierarchy.

Vertigo and J.M. DeMatteis obviously should be solo. Though, Vertigo shouldn’t just be limited to Gaiman and Carey.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It could've been ignorance (Williamson not being familiar with the full run)

Wouldn't surprise me. Not many people read beyond Moore's time, most jump to Morrison/Miller's take (that actively contradict in many respects all past writers, incidentally). A shame, because Veitch is just as good if not better than Moore (at least expanding and contextualizing his ideas; #75 is a special highlight in that sense).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Spectre by Doug Moench stated that Spectre had the power to stop the war between realms which is referring to the war between the Light and Dark, if he had used his powers powerly assigned by the Presence who watched and was disappointed in him when he didn’t.

The Presence can scale to anyone including Light and Darkness as mere duality to his greater form. While, not everything including the Light should scale to it.

 

[Elizio33]

why don't we just split williamson again please

Because Williamson's Infinite Frontier and Dark Crisis are a direct continuity not only with Morrison's Multiversity and Snyder's Death Metal stories, but also with Marv Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths. The differences, while present, were considered small enough to be included, what we learned in Dark Crisis: The Deadly Green is what undid some notable contradictions between Snyder's stories and Williamson's a year later with The Great Darkness. It is true that Morrison's Overvoid was retconned as "Light", but most of the elements of the original depiction of the Overvoid came from Morrison's interviews... From the comics, the Overvoid has been a non-dual sentient void from which the multiverse was born. The fact that the Overvoid was considered God was mainly Morrison's own words from his interviews as such an idea was not mentioned in the comics, apart from the Monitors.