General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Deagonx]

There are multiple different realms in DC that acknowledge DC as one narrative, that acknowledge contradictions, and are seen messing with narratives multiple times. Dax Novu for example witnessed the introduction of the Multiverse to DC Comics, the Monitors catalogue all DC stories, Mxyzptlk removing imagination reducing the comics to sketches, the Death Sun is the end of all stories. These are just examples off the top of my head.

Okay. So how does this help us determine the indexing, precisely, in the instance of two contradicting pieces of information where the indexing is different depending on which is true?

 

[Averroes1]

Okay. So how does this help us determine the indexing, precisely, in the instance of two contradicting pieces of information where the indexing is different depending on which is true?

In the case of the death sun for example, both are. Because the story and all of its inconsistencies end up in it nonetheless.

 

[Deagonx]

In the case of the death sun for example, both are. Because the story and all of its inconsistencies end up in it nonetheless.

That isn't really a helpful or substantive response to the issue at hand.

I'll phrase it differently. If one scan says "There are 14 spatial dimensions" and another says "There are 27" which should be treated as true, assuming that both sources of information are unquestionably in a position to know whether or not that's correct? If a character is to be indexed because they scale to this, should they be treated as scaling to 14 spatial dimensions or 27? Should we split both pieces of information into keys? Do we just assume one of them is incorrect?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

If a character is to be indexed because they scale to this, should they be treated as scaling to 14 spatial dimensions or 27?

Even if the cosmology were composited, you couldn’t up and accept it without evidence of these one-off higher dimensions being qualitatively superior.

 

[Deagonx]

Even if the cosmology were composited, you couldn’t up and accept it without evidence of these one-off higher dimensions being qualitatively superior.

Of course, but for the purposes of the hypothetical I am just trying to explore this notion that we can somehow resolve all of these consistencies by saying it's all true at the same time.

 

[Averroes1]

That isn't really a helpful or substantive response to the issue at hand.

I'll phrase it differently. If one scan says "There are 14 spatial dimensions" and another says "There are 27" which should be treated as true, assuming that both sources of information are unquestionably in a position to know whether or not that's correct? If a character is to be indexed because they scale to this, should they be treated as scaling to 14 spatial dimensions or 27? Should we split both pieces of information into keys? Do we just assume one of them is incorrect?

If the narrative of a verse places itself above the chronological order of events, then something sitting beyond that narrative scales above both statements nonetheless. More importantly, being the end of all stories would imply an end to stories where both statements are true.

 

[Antvasima]

A complete composite cosmology would only really be possible if current canons took precedence over older ones, so most of the works of Neil Gaiman, Mike Carey, J.M. DeMatteis, and several others would have to be abandoned altogether since most of them don't fit into current canon and some concepts or characters that were seemingly "exclusive" to certain authors' stories like Pralaya or Mother Night or Crisis/Connective Energy, should also be discarded.

Personally I think it's best to split them up because like @Deagonx said there are elements from the different stories that just don't match and trying to reconcile them using headcanon to patch the holes is not the best solution for us.

Strongly agreed.

 

[Averroes1]

Frankly, this argument doesn't really work anyways. The narrative isn't cut off when statements that contradict each order exist, it's doesn't become separate narratives, both of the statements are written on the narrative eitherway, it contains them both as text.

 

[Deagonx]

If the narrative of a verse places itself above the chronological order of events, then something sitting beyond that narrative scales above both statements nonetheless. More importantly, being the end of all stories would imply an end to stories where both statements are true.

Okay, see, do you not feel like we're running directly into a wall here?

It's not sufficient to retreat to a platitude like "well ultimately it's all true." I'm telling you there's a character who scales to both statements, but these statements contradict eachother. I am not saying this character scales above both due to being "beyond the narrative."

So, how do we resolve this? That is a framework that would need to be created to even consider treating every scan in DC as equally true.

The narrative isn't cut off when statements that contradict each order exist, it's doesn't become separate narratives, both of the statements are written on the narrative eitherway, it contains them both as text.

That's very nifty for the narrative and people who scale beyond it, but that does not help us resolve the issues for people who are within the narrative scaling to multiple contradictory statements.

 

[Averroes1]

It's not sufficient to retreat to a platitude like "well ultimately it's all true." I'm telling you there's a character who scales to both statements, but these statements contradict eachother. I am not saying this character scales above both due to being "beyond the narrative."

Here is the thing, I am not critiquing the split or saying that it should not be used for the reasons I provided, it should still be used in such a case all the same.

That's very nifty for the narrative and people who scale beyond it, but that does not help us resolve the issues for people who are within the narrative scaling to multiple contradictory statements.

Indeed it does not.

 

[Xearesay]

Also just to add, that example Deagon gave isn’t even what’s happening. Most dimensional statements in DC don’t even give a definitive answer of how many dimensions there actually are and whichever character makes the statement usually addresses these dimensions as only the one’s they know of. Some characters will even clarify that there are more dimensions layered beyond what they know.

 

[Deagonx]

Also just to add, that example Deagon gave isn’t even what’s happening. Most dimensional statements in DC don’t even give a definitive answer of how many dimensions there actually are and whichever character makes the statement usually addresses these dimensions as only the one’s they know of.

Many of them certainly do.

"Collapsed back into the unquantifiable eleven dimensions from which all things in the universe were exploded"
"Picture existence in all fourteen of its dimensions, not just three"
"The multiverse exists in four dimensions."

Or we could point to the fact that 5-D Imps used to be geometrically 5-D and say that anyone below Mxy needs to scale below that. Or we could say Mxy scales to the whole multiverse and thus even more dimensions than that. Pick your poison. You can find a way to justify almost anything if you open the discussion to include every DC story that has ever been written. How about "each Multiverse has it's own Source?" You could justify that too.

By my estimation, much of the opposition to the cosmology split comes from the way it prevents a select few characters from benefitting from scans they have no connection to, without regard for why it was problematic in the first place. All of the potential issues are just handwaved, said to be wrong, meaningless, irrelevant, et cetera. For obvious reasons, that isn't going to go anywhere.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

In regards to Mr. Mxyzptlk, I remember a scan that said that all of his versions are the same, and it specifically included his cosmic adventures in the 8th grade one

 

[Averroes1]

Mxyzptlk has a lot of stuff, I was reading some of it earlier this week, the guy and that entire Fifth Dimension are just a cosmology split cheat code.

 

[Brahmatman]

The big issue here is that this is entirely headcanon. You will find no mention of the Bleedspace in any comic with Pralaya, you will find no mention of Pralaya in any comic with Bleedspace. There's also no reference to a "Sphere of the Gods" in comics with Mother Night.

Failure to specify does not invalidate things. The gods were not previously specified as conceptual entities, but later chronology confirms that they always were. Expanding history and chronology should in no way negate previous achievements. Cosmological hierarchies are identical to characters' inconsistent achievements when they show or are stated to have less than in their past appearances, or as Wiki has calculated. To make a composite cosmology, characters must scale to their shown or stated position in their hierarchy. The Endless have never been stated to be superior to all Dc, so this does not contradict their hierarchical position in the world of the gods. Yahweh was never stated to be superior to all Dc, only the physical multiverses, within his hierarchical position.
The true absolute must be revealed depending on more recent indications from the comics, and confirmation of new chronological sequences. If earlier Yahweh and some being above him could still be considered an absolute, then later chronologies indicated that the absolute is Overvoid, etc. The Source previously occupied a not very high hierarchical position in the multiverse, but later chronology again indicated that it is the top 1 level in the cosmological hierarchy, which may logically contradict past appearances, but according to one’s personal desire, canonicity should not be ignored.
Universes such as Scp are also expanding in cosmology, but this does not prevent one from turning a blind eye to contradictions (even though they will start telling me fairy tales again that there are no contradictions, this is all canonical, and in general one author explained everything for everyone, which means it is taken into account)

 

[Deagonx]

I don't recall Mxy or the Fifth Dimension ever being mentioned in any of the Vertigo or DeMatteis comics.

 

[Ehnkr2beboh]

I don't recall them being referenced in a Vertigo series, but they're definitely parts of JMD's, as he wrote Adventures of Superman #582/#583, which were parts of the Emperor Joker arc, and, as such feature Mxy and Emperor Joker. I'd also figure we'd treat the rest of the arc as part of JMD's cosmology, as, despite not being written by him, they tie-in, similar to how we count Starlin's DOTNG for the Final Crisis cosmology.

 

[Brahmatman]

I don't recall Mxy or the Fifth Dimension ever being mentioned in any of the Vertigo or DeMatteis comics.

I'll even say more, Vertigo characters appeared in DC before Vertigo himself

 

[Brahmatman]

I don't recall Mxy or the Fifth Dimension ever being mentioned in any of the Vertigo or DeMatteis comics.

Purely technically and lore-wise, Bleed has always existed, although it was introduced later, and not even in DC comics. This does not in any way cancel the cosmological structure

 

[Jolman1]

The big issue here is that this is entirely headcanon. You will find no mention of the Bleedspace in any comic with Pralaya, you will find no mention of Pralaya in any comic with Bleedspace. There's also no reference to a "Sphere of the Gods" in comics with Mother Night.

We can decide -- as comic readers -- to attempt to unify these different cosmologies into some Frankenstein composite DC, but all of our solutions will ultimately be ad-hoc headcanon, which is why it's not likely to get rubber stamped on a website like ours.

Bleedspace is present in John's comics. Secondly, I start from the scale and concept of the character, so that MT exists in the SOG is more than obvious.

 

[Brahmatman]

Bleedspace is present in John's comics. Secondly, I start from the scale and concept of the character, so that MT exists in the SOG is more than obvious.

Yes

 

[Excellence616]

Major Doctor Fate revisions

Finally found the time to do this and do it correctly. Just a couple of things. First and foremost: All the stuff mentioned for "Eric and Linda Strauss" is actually just Kent Nelson. The characters were created in the late 80s and all the feats provided that measures them was long before the...

vsbattles.com

 

[Samael_010]

Question, are we gonna merge The Presence, The Source and Overvoid profile? seen this topic a while ago on this thread, but its never done

 

[Brahmatman]

Question, are we gonna merge The Presence, The Source and Overvoid profile? seen this topic a while ago on this thread, but its never done

These are different characters. And The Presence's name is Yahweh

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

How about this?

1. Merge Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, the Presence, and the Source into one page for the Light from the crisis cosmology.
2. Make two separate profiles for DeMattis's DP and Vertigo's Presence.

This is being handled after the Crisis cosmology is finalized.

 

[Jolman1]

Bleedspace is present in John's comics. Secondly, I start from the scale and concept of the character, so that MT exists in the SOG is more than obvious.

@Deagonx ?

 

[Elizio33]

The big issue here is that this is entirely headcanon. You will find no mention of the Bleedspace in any comic with Pralaya, you will find no mention of Pralaya in any comic with Bleedspace. There's also no reference to a "Sphere of the Gods" in comics with Mother Night.

We can decide -- as comic readers -- to attempt to unify these different cosmologies into some Frankenstein composite DC, but all of our solutions will ultimately be ad-hoc headcanon, which is why it's not likely to get rubber stamped on a website like ours.

I completely agree with this. While Dan Didio and Jim Lee's "canon over continuity" ideology gave DC writers more freedom to write their stories without any strict continuity, it was quite a mess in terms of constructing a coherent cosmology, hence why I find that "continuity over canon" would be more appropriate for this situation. Yes, there were ways to reconcile the canons, but those means themselves have been used inconsistently by writers over the years, Hypertime being a good example. Some of Morrison's ideas for Hypertime are now obsolete and most of them weren't even mentioned in the comics (or they were very vague mentions), although some still work well, but most have been abandoned. A composite cosmology might not work very well as there are notable contradictions and using the headcanon to try to reconcile them is not the best option in my opinion, it would mean eliminating the works of certain authors like most old stories of Neil Gaiman, Mike Carey, DeMatteis and some others, since most of their information is outdated compared to current canon.

And I also don't believe in the idea that every universe of the Orrery is a multiverse/continuity just because Neil Gaiman's Sandman was mentioned in Grant Morrison's Multiversity. If anything, it was nothing more than a nod to Neil Gaiman. I think it was pretty clear that the Orrery was supposed to limit the multiverse to just fifty-two universes, with infinite universes existing somewhere outside of the Orrery. Even Jeff King's Convergence seems to have been retconned over the years, most notably with Dark Crisis on Infinite Earths, as the Pre-Crisis Multiverse was returned due to the heroes being sent back in time to defeat the Anti-Monitor during Convergence while in Dark Crisis, the Pre-Crisis Multiverse was still in ruins and separated from the Orrery. At this point we should let the cosmologies separated, although as a "Crisis Cosmology" is in work with the most notable works of authors throughout the 21st century, we should create another with the cosmology of J.M. DeMatteis and those of other authors that should be more consistent with that of DeMatteis' works, such as Allen Moore for example.

Edit: Of course, this is my personal opinion on the subject, but I feel like smaller composite cosmologies for DC, like Crisis Cosmology, would be a better idea than trying to create a "Frankenstein DC Cosmology" with every material and story and using headcanons or sources vaguely or not mentioned in the comics to try to reconcile the holes.

 

[Excellence616]

Separating cosmologies is irrelevant

Dc canon Event multiversity created by Grant Morrison, it tells the story of a fictional comic in their own EARTH, but the comic is a reality in another EARTHs. •Vertigo Canon vertigo comics in the DCU °The reason all these stories are canon is because of the omniverse, the omniverse not only...

vsbattles.com

another cosmology thread for Dc

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity @Elizio33 Should we make a discussion rule against DeMattis cosmology upgrades? They're becoming repetitive.

 

[Deagonx]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity @Elizio33 Should we make a discussion rule against DeMattis cosmology upgrades? They're becoming repetitive.

Honestly, I'm torn. It's not that I don't think a valid argument could be made or that I don't think anyone should be allowed to explore it as a CRT, but we have a recent influx of users making very poorly formatted CRTs with unacceptably bad English posting many in quick succession and it's become very tiresome.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity @Elizio33 Should we make a discussion rule against DeMattis cosmology upgrades? They're becoming repetitive.

I’m fine with that. If not, then a topic ban should suffice at the bare minimum. The thing is, the combination of:

• Marvel’s massive cosmology upgrades
• Ultima’s R>F staff thread
• Superman’s recent scaling in death battle

Have caused all this hype around getting the cosmology re-upgraded regardless of accuracy. Several new users I’ve noticed, signed up for accounts recently just to create cosmology upgrade after cosmology upgrade and pick fights with staff members like Deagon and Elizio across several threads. Something must definitely be done at this point, as it’s mostly regurgitations of the exact same arguments combined with a refusal to acknowledge why these arguments aren’t accepted and adapt.

 

[Elizio33]

@Antvasima @Deagonx @ProfectusInfinity @Elizio33 Should we make a discussion rule against DeMattis cosmology upgrades? They're becoming repetitive.

Yeah, restrict them for now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I’m fine with that. If not, then a topic ban should suffice at the bare minimum. The thing is, the combination of:

• Marvel’s massive cosmology upgrades
• Ultima’s R>F staff thread
• Superman’s recent scaling in death battle

Have caused all this hype around getting the cosmology re-upgraded regardless of accuracy. Several new users I’ve noticed, signed up for accounts recently just to create cosmology upgrade after cosmology upgrade and pick fights with staff members like Deagon and Elizio across several threads. Something must definitely be done at this point, as it’s mostly regurgitations of the exact same arguments combined with a refusal to acknowledge why these arguments aren’t accepted and adapt.

I agree, the first is a whataboutism, the second while ongoing does not look there is actual qualification to meet his criteria. And 3rd I don't need to talk about; someone attempted a Heroes Goku Vs Thought Robot to basically test its legitimacy but was closed as a stomp in one way or the other regardless of 5D Vs 6D arguments.

Discussion Rule should perhaps be made yeah.

 

[Antvasima]

I’m fine with that. If not, then a topic ban should suffice at the bare minimum. The thing is, the combination of:

• Marvel’s massive cosmology upgrades
• Ultima’s R>F staff thread
• Superman’s recent scaling in death battle

Have caused all this hype around getting the cosmology re-upgraded regardless of accuracy. Several new users I’ve noticed, signed up for accounts recently just to create cosmology upgrade after cosmology upgrade and pick fights with staff members like Deagon and Elizio across several threads. Something must definitely be done at this point, as it’s mostly regurgitations of the exact same arguments combined with a refusal to acknowledge why these arguments aren’t accepted and adapt.

I do not mind a discussion rule against rehashed threads about merging the DC Comics cosmology again, but there do seem to exist some valid points for upgrading the DeMatteis cosmology, so we should at least properly finish our discussion about that before we do anything drastic.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

We absolutely need to prevent or restrict CRT's that aim to restore and implement composite hierarchy for DC. CRT's are both inadequate and their contents are created carelessly. There are a lot of initiatives going on for this issue these days, and everyone is very tired of it. After Elizio implements the changes for Crisis Cosmology, we need to update the Vertigo blog.

 

[Brahmatman]

DC writers more freedom to write their stories without any strict continuity, it was quite a mess in terms of constructing a coherent cosmology

The usual cosmology with multiple authors, there is nothing unusual or outstanding in this, but for some reason, this problem only applies to the DC universe. And I have never seen any compelling evidence or arguments why this should apply only to her, with the exception of repeated and cliched phrases about the logic and canonicity of another universe, in which there are also contradictions and illogical compositions. If you really want to try to lower the level of cosmology by specifically dividing cosmologies into different authors, then for starters, don't try to pretend that there are no contradictions in other multi-author universes.

Some of Morrison's ideas for Hypertime are now obsolete and most of them weren't even mentioned in the comics (or they were very vague mentions), although some still work well, but most have been abandoned.

This is a favorite theme of people trying to appeal that if something is not indicated in the cosmology of one author, then it does not exist in him. Bleed was not created in DC, and has not been mentioned in past comics, but has always existed as a construct in which universes float. Some of the Endless appeared in later comics, but they also always existed and existed from the very beginning of cosmology, Destiny appeared back in 1972, although Morpheus was invented later, does this deny the existence of Morpheus in parallel with Destiny? Of course not.The problem is not that there are contradictions, but a lack of understanding that the cosmological structure is revealed as more and more recent information is released. By the way, in TES, the entire cosmology as it is at the moment was also not initially thought out, they expanded and changed, which does not prevent it from being compiled into a cosmological level.

it would mean eliminating the works of certain authors like most old stories of Neil Gaiman, Mike Carey, DeMatteis and some others, since most of their information is outdated compared to current canon.

Has anything changed much? The heavens appeared and were shown on the map. Pralaya has also appeared in some comics. Lucifer also appeared in Crisis. The fact that a newer one replaced an old one does not in any way cancel the old one. Otherwise, we can throw out all the old appearances of Darkseid and Doomsday, because Darkseid was not previously listed as Platonic Evil, and Doomsday was not a multiversal parasite resurrecting himself in the higher dimensions?

And I also don't believe in the idea that every universe of the Orrery is a multiverse/continuity just because Neil Gaiman's Sandman was mentioned in Grant Morrison's Multiversity.

Sandman originally appeared in DC. Destiny appeared in 1972. Here you need to ask a counter question, who is more canonical, Dc, which created Vertigo characters, or Vetrigo, which uses Dc characters? Yahweh or his voice appeared in Pre-Crisis DC. Does this somehow contradict Vertigo? Or will there be some clear and normal evidence that Vertigo really has a different cosmology, different from Dc?

Edit: Of course, this is my personal opinion on the subject, but I feel like smaller composite cosmologies for DC, like Crisis Cosmology, would be a better idea than trying to create a "Frankenstein DC Cosmology" with every material and story and using headcanons or sources vaguely or not mentioned in the comics to try to reconcile the holes.

This is a problem with any multi-author work. DC is so far the only universe in which I have seen a division of cosmology, turning a blind eye to other universes with multiple authors.

 

[Brahmatman]

Honestly, I'm torn. It's not that I don't think a valid argument could be made or that I don't think anyone should be allowed to explore it as a CRT, but we have a recent influx of users making very poorly formatted CRTs with unacceptably bad English posting many in quick succession and it's become very tiresome

You haven't given a single argument against the thread. You ignore and don't answer questions. And are you still dissatisfied with something?

 

[Excellence616]

Some minor resistance updates for Pre DOS Superman

I noticed Pre DOS Superman doesn't have resistance to Darkseid's Omega Beams, which is odd, so I'm gonna fix that, I'll also add another thing. Existence Erasure & Causality Manipulation (Resisted Omega Beams from Darkseid) - Action Comics #586. This should have the same reasoning as his Post...

vsbattles.com

 

[Ramasugita11]

I do not mind a discussion rule against rehashed threads about merging the DC Comics cosmology again, but there do seem to exist some valid points for upgrading the DeMatteis cosmology, so we should at least properly finish our discussion about that before we do anything drastic.

That doesn't make sense, cause the overvoid contains infinite multiverses.[Here]
Omniverse only contains 3 layers, those layers are positive-multiverse, anti-matter universe and dark multiverse. Besides DC canon, the multiverse is not just the one on the regular multiverse Map. Multiverse Vertigo has 2 versions [Carey 2000] and [Watters 2018]and is in a different multiverse too. Because it is impossible to unite the story of the sphere of the gods into one multiverse. The sphere of the gods is outside the speed force and the bleed there is only one version, There is only one DARKSEID, there is only one SPECTRE, there is only 1 the DREAM of the endless.

Because each god in the sphere of the gods has no variants, they are Singular. The universe has an infinite number but the gods have no variants.
Logically, different gods exist in different multiverses, this means that there are 2 different versions of Lucifer in the Greater Omniverse.
The greater omniverse contains the greater multiverse [omniverse] which has infinite universes/earths and the multiverses have been destroyed many times outside of the main multiverse.
[Here] [Here]

 

[Jolman1]

I’m fine with that. If not, then a topic ban should suffice at the bare minimum. The thing is, the combination of:

• Marvel’s massive cosmology upgrades
• Ultima’s R>F staff thread
• Superman’s recent scaling in death battle

Have caused all this hype around getting the cosmology re-upgraded regardless of accuracy. Several new users I’ve noticed, signed up for accounts recently just to create cosmology upgrade after cosmology upgrade and pick fights with staff members like Deagon and Elizio across several threads. Something must definitely be done at this point, as it’s mostly regurgitations of the exact same arguments combined with a refusal to acknowledge why these arguments aren’t accepted and adapt.

If these arguments were worthwhile, then fine, but when they are based on “there is no recursion, because the word “recursion” is not specified” or “the dream simply continues the previous one, without having a qualitative difference,” then people will get involved in the discussion. What else to do when nonsense is postulated?