General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Ped2018]

tbh 1-C writer seems based

Dc getting stomped by Marvel is seriously based

 

[Averroes1]

That's ridiculous. Such an interpretation is completely incompatible with the relationship between various layers of the multiverse and half of this isn't even in the comics



None of that is compatible with the majority of information about hypertime throughout the cosmology.

It is

 

[Averroes1]

Dc getting stomped by Marvel is seriously based

The Overvoid after base Thor gets a tidbit angry

 

[ImmortalDread]

But no joke, finally that wanked tiers are no longer there

 

[Deagonx]

I'm aware of those scans. They aren't included in the scope of the Morrison/Snyder cosmology and are heavily contradicted by other things

 

[Averroes1]

I'm aware of those scans. They aren't included in the scope of the Morrison/Snyder cosmology and are heavily contradicted by other things

what

 

[LordTracer]

Dc getting stomped by Marvel is seriously based

Meanwhile the street tiers (the best tiers) are mostly at the same level.

 

[Deagonx]

what

You're going to need to elaborate if you want an answer

 

[ImmortalDread]

Deagonx: No it does not work like that
The guy: what?
Deagonx: you gotta elaborate

 

[Undylan]

So how would cross-scaling or battles between beings from different cosmologies go? Are they treated like they're from different canon like GT Goku vs Super Goku for example?

 

[Ped2018]

You're going to need to elaborate if you want an answer

The contradictions? What are they?

 

[Averroes1]

You're going to need to elaborate if you want an answer

What stuff from Grant Morrisons works contradict this structure, and even if contradictions existed, why would we ignore an integral system of 3 different comic book runs (one of them being a Crisis event) off of some measly contradictions.

 

[Deagonx]

why would we ignore an integral system of 3 different comic book runs (one of them being a Crisis event) off of some measly contradictions.

No one is doing that. You seem to think I'm trying to ignore Hypertime, but I'm not. I am specifically rejecting the interpretation of it as granting three levels of infinity unto itself, which is just completely ridiculous.

 

[Averroes1]

No one is doing that. You seem to think I'm trying to ignore Hypertime, but I'm not. I am specifically rejecting the interpretation of it as granting three levels of infinity unto itself, which is just completely ridiculous.

Its a very simple premise though, Fiction > Real world > more real then real world.

Scans already exist explaining the whole higher geometry in comics here, and its all backed up by Grant Morrison explaining their nature, and using the cosmology numerous times in his works.

Its pretty blatantly a system built on R>F, and acknowledging the existence of the system but ignoring its very basics is also kinda just ignoring the system as a whole.

 

[Deagonx]

Its a very simple premise though, Fiction > Real world > more real then real world.

I'm aware of the premise. I don't know what your point is. It's simple, therefore it's accurate?

Scans already exist explaining the whole higher geometry in comics here,

I'm aware of the scans, yep.

and its all backed up by Grant Morrison explaining their nature

And directly contradicted by numerous scans and interactions throughout the verse.

and using the cosmology numerous times in his works.

What does this even mean?

Its pretty blatantly a system built on R>F

No, it isn't. We concretely know this isn't the case through a variety of other information in the cosmology.

and acknowledging the existence of the system but ignoring its very basics is also kinda just ignoring the system as a whole.

No, just not integrating this specific interpretation of it due to contradictions it would introduce. We wont give a verse three undeserved infinities (unless it's Nasuverse)

 

[Ped2018]

unless it's Nasuverse

you're lowkey getting packed up

 

[Averroes1]

I'm aware of the premise. I don't know what your point is. It's simple, therefore it's accurate?

It exists, therefore we should rate it.

And directly contradicted by numerous scans and interactions throughout the verse.

I will accept that, now i need to see them.

What does this even mean?

Grant uses his Hypertime cosmology numerous times in his works

No, it isn't. We concretely know this isn't the case through a variety of other information in the cosmology.

what, how

verse three undeserved infinities

Watchu mean 3 undeserved infinities fam its not robux.

The cosmology is right there, E-33 views other 4-D structures as fictional comicbooks. Thats the whole point of my arguments, we rate a structure 2-C, when inside it is a structure that views the rest of it as fiction. Which shouldn't be only 2-C

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I stand corrected.

Okay, with that out of the way, let's talk about the discussion rules in more detail. I'll make a CRT for this if it's necessary, but I just want some general opinions first.

• Do not attempt to upgrade The Presence/Yahweh from DC Comics to tier 0, simply because he is stated to be omnipotent and is the verse's depiction of the monotheistic god. This topic has been discussed extensively in the past, and it has been concluded that the Presence has shown far too many limitations (Such as equals or near equals in power in Elaine Belloc and The Great Darkness, stating that he was created by human imagination, being mere fiction to Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, being severely damaged by Gabriel Hornblower, and being healed by Michael Demiurgos) to be ranked as anything beyond his 1-A rating. Also keep in mind that statements of omnipotence are never accepted as proof.

I couldn't find the thread where this rule was decided on, only the revision. As the Presence isn't even 1-A now, only 1-C, the characters mentioned are from different sections of the cosmology split (Elaine Belloc, The Great Darkness, Gabriel Hornblower, and Michael Demiurgos are from Vertigo while Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is from Grant Morrison/Scott Snyder/James Tynion IV), and the rule about Omnipotence not meaning anything doesn't need to be repeated for one specific character, I would advocate for removing this rule.

• Please don't attempt to upgrade the Sphere of Gods to tier Low 1-A or 1-A. It has been discussed numerous times and firmly rejected, as it is very inconsistent and contradictory. However, if new information regarding the Sphere of Gods is canonically published by DC Comics, the discussion can be resumed.

As it stands, the Sphere of the Gods is 2-C after the cosmology split discussion kicked it out of Tier 1 altogether, so this rule should be revised to account for all of Tier 1. My writeup: "Do not try to upgrade the Sphere of the Gods to Tier 1, especially to Low 1-A or 1-A, without new, canonical information. Multiple discussion threads like this one firmly rejected the idea of a Low 1-A or 1-A rank for the Sphere of the Gods, which would be inconsistent and contradictory; the cosmology split further rejected any Tier 1 rating for it due to insufficient evidence for qualitative superiority."

• Please refrain from creating content revisions or assumptions regarding Mandrakk's plot manipulation abilities based on vague references or lack of evidence. There is no indication in the comics that Mandrakk can alter the details of an existing narrative, change the past, or make decisions for characters in the story. All references to the story are metaphorical and made by beings who are trying to destroy the multiverse, and should be considered within their context. The Gentry/Empty Hand do not see the multiverse as fictional or have the ability to edit the story like an author. Therefore, any discussion about Mandrakk's plot manipulation abilities should be based on evidence from the comics and should avoid assumptions or unsupported claims.

Upon further inspection, Ant added this rule after a private staff discussion, so it doesn't need to be touched or elaborated on.

 

[Deagonx]

It exists, therefore we should rate it.

Not how that works at all.

Grant uses his Hypertime cosmology numerous times in his works

I have affirmed this several times. Hypertime is currently incorporated in the cosmology.

The cosmology is right there, E-33 views other 4-D structures as fictional comicbooks

Earth-33 can influence other earths in the Orrery, but it is not on a higher level than them.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I speak about whether some powers that are based on the system of cosmology such as the way operation of magic or the Physiology of a mystical race

For example, in a story written by DeMatteis it is said that the Demon race are actually products created by the human Collective Unconscious and cannot die until humanity dies according to Etrigan, it could be said that this can be applied to all demons within any cosmology?

Come on guys i want to improve magic Characters and fix profiles, i need an answer to this since is based on the inner workings of very nature of DC

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, with that out of the way, let's talk about the discussion rules in more detail. I'll make a CRT for this if it's necessary, but I just want some general opinions first.

I couldn't find the thread where this rule was decided on, only the revision. As the Presence isn't even 1-A now, only 1-C, the characters mentioned are from different sections of the cosmology split (Elaine Belloc, The Great Darkness, Gabriel Hornblower, and Michael Demiurgos are from Vertigo while Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is from Grant Morrison/Scott Snyder/James Tynion IV), and the rule about Omnipotence not meaning anything doesn't need to be repeated for one specific character, I would advocate for removing this rule.

As it stands, the Sphere of the Gods is 2-C after the cosmology split discussion kicked it out of Tier 1 altogether, so this rule should be revised to account for all of Tier 1. My writeup: "Do not try to upgrade the Sphere of the Gods to Tier 1, especially to Low 1-A or 1-A, without new, canonical information. Multiple discussion threads like this one firmly rejected the idea of a Low 1-A or 1-A rank for the Sphere of the Gods, which would be inconsistent and contradictory; the cosmology split further rejected any Tier 1 rating for it due to insufficient evidence for qualitative superiority."

These suggestions seem reasonable to me. Should I apply them?

 

[Deagonx]

I'm fine with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Are the suggested changes to our DC Comics Discussion Rules acceptable for our other staff members here as well?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Currently, we have profiles with "Post-Crisis", "Post-Flashpoint" and "Rebirth" names.

How about we change them to the original and official name?

Pre Crisis -> Earth One.

Post Crisis -> New Earth.

Post Flashopoint -> Prime Earth.

Rebirth -> Prime Earth - Rebirth.

Superman's Rebirth profile would become "Superman (Prime Earth - Rebirth)"

Prime Earth nomenclature includes both N52 and Rebirth phases, so it should be fine.

 

[Deagonx]

How about we change them to the original and official name?

I would be opposed to this, because I always found it hard to remember which ones was which, whereas the current names are very clear to me.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Currently, we have profiles with "Post-Crisis", "Post-Flashpoint" and "Rebirth" names.

How about we change them to the original and official name?

Pre Crisis -> Earth One.

Post Crisis -> New Earth.

Post Flashopoint -> Prime Earth.

Rebirth -> Prime Earth - Rebirth.

Superman's Rebirth profile would become "Superman (Prime Earth - Rebirth)"

Prime Earth nomenclature includes both N52 and Rebirth phases, so it should be fine.

I have not problem

 

[M3X_2.0]

I want to hear more opinions before making a thread.

 

[Shadyboi0]

Currently, we have profiles with "Post-Crisis", "Post-Flashpoint" and "Rebirth" names.

How about we change them to the original and official name?

Pre Crisis -> Earth One.

Post Crisis -> New Earth.

Post Flashopoint -> Prime Earth.

Rebirth -> Prime Earth - Rebirth.

Superman's Rebirth profile would become "Superman (Prime Earth - Rebirth)"

Prime Earth nomenclature includes both N52 and Rebirth phases, so it should be fine.

Agreed, but wouldn't we also have Earth-2?

 

[LordTracer]

Currently, we have profiles with "Post-Crisis", "Post-Flashpoint" and "Rebirth" names.

How about we change them to the original and official name?

Pre Crisis -> Earth One.

Post Crisis -> New Earth.

Post Flashopoint -> Prime Earth.

Rebirth -> Prime Earth - Rebirth.

Superman's Rebirth profile would become "Superman (Prime Earth - Rebirth)"

Prime Earth nomenclature includes both N52 and Rebirth phases, so it should be fine.

I don’t necessarily mind this, as long as the current names are left as redirects to the new ones.

What would we do with characters labeled as “Pre-Flashpoint” though?

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Currently, we have profiles with "Post-Crisis", "Post-Flashpoint" and "Rebirth" names.

How about we change them to the original and official name?

Pre Crisis -> Earth One.

Post Crisis -> New Earth.

Post Flashopoint -> Prime Earth.

Rebirth -> Prime Earth - Rebirth.

Superman's Rebirth profile would become "Superman (Prime Earth - Rebirth)"

Prime Earth nomenclature includes both N52 and Rebirth phases, so it should be fine.

I'm personally fine with this. Current one sounds cooler but eh

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don’t necessarily mind this, as long as the current names are left as redirects to the new ones.

What would we do with characters labeled as “Pre-Flashpoint” though?

I guess name them in whatever era they're from? Or split them I suppose

 

[M3X_2.0]

At the same time that I think it’s valid to argue that it’s easier to understand what the page is referring to using Post/Pre terms, I think they should go.

The term “Crisis” has become the standard for DC major events, and we have a lot of Crisis. Obviously when referring to this, we are talking about COIE, but the term “New Earth” and “Prime Earth” tells us they’re referring to two different periods in DC Comics.

What would we do with characters labeled as “Pre-Flashpoint” though?

Pre Flashpoint is either Post Crisis, Pre Crisis or both. We should analyze what the term “Pre Flashpoint” is referring to, before changing it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Agreed, but wouldn't we also have Earth-2?

What are they called?

 

[LordTracer]

Pre Flashpoint is either Post Crisis, Pre Crisis or both. We should analyze what the term “Pre Flashpoint” is referring to, before changing it.

I mean when it’s referring to both, like with Richard Dragon. His page covers Earth-One and New Earth since he’s the same character across both continuities.

 

[M3X_2.0]

That’s a good question, I’ll work on a solution.

 

[Shadyboi0]

What are they called?

Golden age, yeah its pre crisis, but its not silver age pre crisis

 

[Deagonx]

We also have characters like Doctor Fate (Classic) FWIW

 

[M3X_2.0]

Classic really tells us nothing. At least mention the age. I’ll work on a better solution for everything, was just asking for opinions.

 

[LordTracer]

Agreed, but wouldn't we also have Earth-2?

We already use the Earth-Two designation for characters from that era, see Superman.

 

[Shadyboi0]

We already use the Earth-Two designation for characters from that era, see Superman.

Understood.