General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I read the Green Lantern story and it says that the Source emerged in the Darkness. Other than that, yes, the Source scales above everything and everyone in the cosmology, except the Great Darkness.

It wasn't created in the Dark. It's from the Dark that it manifested. For how the Darkness as a state of existence isn't created but the Darkness as a being was only defined after it was contrasted by the Light. They just gave God a face thus the gods dreamed of their depiction of a higher force as did the humans to gods. What they comprehended was the Source and it manifested from the Dark, was not created.

Besides older =/= more powerful. Each one didn't make the other. Like God from Matteis Cosmology didn't create the Sea of Brahma since his extension of everything split into nothing that expanded ad infinituim and thus became the sea of nothing before the Love Sea. Not created but an aspect thus part of it. That's what I depict Throne idea was Dark/Darkness is part of it, the unmanifest version of the Source.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Regardless, the Crisis Cosmology page does not contain the Elemental Realms, the Lord of Order and Chaos, and the Ascended Beings. Can one of you help me? And what do you think of the Godsphere inhabitants existing in 4-D? Should we add the information regarding the Source and Hypertime presented in the Green Lantern story? @VeryGoofyToddler you are welcome to help if you wish.

Elizio33/Sandbox9

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They're not 4D. Even if they were that applies specifically to either avatars or just the resident when entering lower dimension. Since there still is space-time within individual universes.

 

[Elizio33]

They're not 4D. Even if they were that applies specifically to either avatars or just the resident when entering lower dimension. Since there still is space-time within individual universes.

Maybe the true forms/state of the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods are 4-D, but not their avatars within the universes.

 

[Elizio33]

It wasn't created in the Dark. It's from the Dark that it manifested. For how the Darkness as a state of existence isn't created but the Darkness as a being was only defined after it was contrasted by the Light. They just gave God a face thus the gods dreamed of their depiction of a higher force as did the humans to gods. What they comprehended was the Source and it manifested from the Dark, was not created.

Besides older =/= more powerful. Each one didn't make the other. Like God from Matteis Cosmology didn't create the Sea of Brahma since his extension of everything split into nothing that expanded ad infinituim and thus became the sea of nothing before the Love Sea. Not created but an aspect thus part of it. That's what I depict Throne idea was Dark/Darkness is part of it, the unmanifest version of the Source.

All of these weren't even mentioned or implied in Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion, and Joshua Williamson's vision of the DCU. Perhaps DeMatteis sees the Divine Presence as the entity that even defined the pre-creation void, aka Pralaya, and other writers like Mike Carey, Neil Gaiman, and Allen Moore seem to have the same view as DeMatteis, but this does not seem to be the case in modern stories of the four writers mentioned above.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Maybe the true forms/state of the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods are 4-D, but not their avatars within the universes.

No, their individual forms within the lower worlds are 4D. While their higher form varies, we don't know the true limit to their dimensionality.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

All of these weren't even mentioned or implied in Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion, and Joshua Williamson's vision of the DCU. Perhaps DeMatteis sees the Divine Presence as the entity that even defined the pre-creation void, aka Pralaya, and other writers like Mike Carey and Allen Moore seem to have the same view as DeMatteis, but this does not seem to be the case in modern stories of the four writers mentioned above.

It does. The Green Lantern scans do not imply it was created. It simply came from the Dark and the author of that same story mentions this. Even if we don't use his logic, it never said it was created in it.

 

[Elizio33]

It does. The Green Lantern scans do not imply it was created. It simply came from the Dark and the author of that same story mentions this. Even if we don't use his logic, it never said it was created in it.

I didn't say it was created in the Darkness, I said it emerged in the Darkness.

 

[Elizio33]

No, their individual forms within the lower worlds are 4D. While their higher form varies, we don't know the true limit to their dimensionality.

Okay, so should the tier for their higher forms vary from Low 2-C to Low 1-C?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I didn't say it was created in the Darkness, I said it emerged in the Darkness.

The context here within your draft implies it due to “it” predating the Presence thus predating the Source.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Okay, so should the tier for their higher forms vary from Low 2-C to Low 1-C?

No, unless we're upgrading the Sphere to Low 1-C. Since no gods scale to the entirety of the Sphere.

 

[Excellence616]

Darkseid's abilities (Pre-Flashpoint)

Hey everyone, how about adding some new abilities for Darkseid based on the proofs given? Unfortunately, I don’t yet know the exact name of the abilities and their type on the site, so I will give a general category of abilities. Emanations: The emanations of the New Gods contain entire...

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[Excellence616]

DC Cosmology General Discussion

I made this thread just to discuss DC's cosmology in general, not to propose any changes, feel free to comment about any concerns, questions, or things of interest. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/DC_Comics_Cosmology

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[Bastolan27]

What do y'all think about this scale for out-of-wiki use? Or is he misinterpreting things?
Feats: 1:40
Statements: 16:40
Cosmology: 21:32

 

[Elizio33]

Hello, I'll need help for the Elemental Realms section for the Crisis Cosmology draft page. Can anyone help me by providing information on Morrison's or James Tynion IV's stories involving the Green, Red and Black, please?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Hello, I'll need help for the Elemental Realms section for the Crisis Cosmology draft page. Can anyone help me by providing information on Morrison's or James Tynion IV's stories involving the Green, Red and Black, please?

Green was mentioned quite a lot during Justice League Dark and Witching Hour.

 

[Elizio33]

Green was mentioned quite a lot during Justice League Dark and Witching Hour.

Well, in JL Dark, the Green said to be not a just place or a realm, nor it is merely imagination. It lies between idea and reality, where memory and consciousness of roots, stems, leaves and flowers exist outside of time and space. Throughout the story, the pillars, like the Green, have been shown to touch all realms, including the Other Place.

This is the only information I have.

 

[Excellence616]

Minor New 52 Superman addition

Superman is able to increase his capabilities beyond their standard levels by supercharging with excess solar radiation (Superman/Wonder Woman #2), which allows him to defeat stronger opponents like the Olympian God Apollo. higher when supercharged (Overpowered Apollo, who is stronger than...

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[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Well, in JL Dark, the Green said to be not a just place or a realm, nor it is merely imagination. It lies between idea and reality, where memory and consciousness of roots, stems, leaves and flowers exist outside of time and space. Throughout the story, the pillars, like the Green, have been shown to touch all realms, including the Other Place.

This is the only information I have.

The War of Magic has gotten a lot of attention from the Parliament. So there are small nuances, if you want I'll help with scans.

 

[Excellence616]

 

[Elizio33]

The War of Magic has gotten a lot of attention from the Parliament. So there are small nuances, if you want I'll help with scans.

Yes if you don't mind

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yes if you don't mind

You do have to realize that Tynion IV stopped writing the issues pretty early on and Ram V carried it with other collaborators. So would you count those?

 

[Elizio33]

You do have to realize that Tynion IV stopped writing the issues pretty early on and Ram V carried it with other collaborators. So would you count those?

I think so.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think so.

The only thing we've seen is it's a realm that connects all parts mentioned in #23. It transformed by the will of Swamp Thing the entire Otherplace into the Green. That's all we get because it was replaced by the Parliaments of Flowers as the new “Green” with the Tree Parliaments being pretty much obselete.

 

[Elizio33]

The only thing we've seen is it's a realm that connects all parts mentioned in #23. It transformed by the will of Swamp Thing the entire Otherplace into the Green. That's all we get because it was replaced by the Parliaments of Flowers as the new “Green” with the Tree Parliaments being pretty much obselete.

So what I posted earlier about the Green is the only relevant information about the Elemental Realms?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Superman vs Garou

 

[Excellence616]

Dc DeMateis cosmology and yet PART 2

Hello again everyone, in the first part of my thread the asset fell very much and it became difficult to understand the text due to the many comments in it + there are some new arguments that will help clarify the situations in this cosmology. Some good guys offered me to do the second part, I...

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[Maverick_Zero_X]

Superman (DC Comics) Profile(s) Discussion Thread

Golden Age / Earth-Two Silver Age / Earth-One / “Pre-Crisis” New Earth / “Post-Crisis” New 52 / “Post-Flashpoint” Rebirth I made this thread for suggestions on improving Supeman’s profiles in preparation for a CRT (adding missing abilities, scans or supporting evidence). To clarify this thread...

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[Robo432343]

shouldn't world forger be 2-A for creating infinite universes multiple times?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

shouldn't world forger be 2-A for creating infinite universes multiple times?

Those were made in the 6th dimension, they were over time, and he used fears and hope to build them. His natural powers are not what makes the universe anyways.

 

[Elizio33]

shouldn't world forger be 2-A for creating infinite universes multiple times?

You should start a crt on this, but WF has been shown to create one universe at a time every time he swings his hammer. 2-C is fine for him. In the Sixth Dimension, however, the World Forger is larger than the multiverse and rules over the fifth-dimensional imps and exists on a plane of existence greater than them, thus Low 1-C suits him best.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I think the fact that all three entities are viewpoints of the Light makes sense because Williamson integrated the "Light of Creation" and associated it with the origins of the Overvoid, which Morrison declared to be the same as the Source a few years earlier.

The Light of Creation is also identified as the hand featured in Moore's Swamp Thing. The hand of the Presence is that of the Light as the story clearly shows.

Literally a year earlier, the Presence and the Source were assumed to be the same, as Snyder's Death Metal shows a comma between "the Presence, of the Source", which Snyder later confirmed to be the case.

Additionally, DC's recent guidebook: The DC Book: A Vast and Vibrant Multiverse Simply Explained describes the Presence to be in charge of the Hands featured in Snyder's stories.

The three entities were clearly used interchangeably over the years and Williamson simply associated the whole as the Light of Creation and did a pretty good job as well.

I also forgot to mention this but your take on what comes with continuity is pressed with changes. The Overvoid was not the same as the Presence as Grant clearly defined the Presece as something manifested with the Material and Metaphysical Plane.

Grant notions the Source is not equal to the Overvoid but is the Overvoid. As a white Void when the only thing beyond Nil was the Overvoid. The unknown description doesn't even fit the Presence given the Presence is the form given shape. This is known and everything else with Snyder was added upon his idea, I don't recall Grant being the head writer but just a collaborator. So his canons are his own with Snyder making his own with additional information to the Multiversity Map which is outdated and isn't used to convey anything in Synder other than references as “Map of the Multiverse.”

Also, the three beings mentioned in the map are not part of a true Creator. They each are the true Creator. The true Creator thing was just a fan-made theory like Presence = Source = Overvoid. You can argue about their nature and power but actual confirmation that they are one and the same. I don't intend for Grant to notion Source = Presence that's simply what Snyder came up with.

I meant to say this so the late response shouldn't be too random.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

You do have to realize that Tynion IV stopped writing the issues pretty early on and Ram V carried it with other collaborators. So would you count those?

Oh, Tynion...

 

[Elizio33]

New information about the universes for the Crisis Cosmology (more or less lol): The 53rd universe is one of the infinite universes previously destroyed during Crisis on Infinite Earths that Pariah 'brought back' during Dark Crisis. The problem is that Earth-53 was involved during the Metal Wars and wasn't part of the fifty-two known universes of the Orrery, meaning that the infinite universes still existed somewhere outside of the Orrery and unbeknownst to anyone.

We've learned that the Pre-Crisis Multiverse still existed as "Multiverse-2" and there is a barrier between Multiverse-1, otherwise known as the Orrery of Worlds, and Multiverse-2.

Now who scales to it? Simply none! Only the fifty-two worlds of the Orrery have been involved in multiversal events since Final Crisis and the mention of a barrier between the two multiverses strongly implied that they were separate multiverses before they were 'merged' together at the end of Dark Crisis.

 

[Brahmatman]

I also forgot to mention this but your take on what comes with continuity is pressed with changes. The Overvoid was not the same as the Presence as Grant clearly defined the Presece as something manifested with the Material and Metaphysical Plane.

Grant notions the Source is not equal to the Overvoid but is the Overvoid. As a white Void when the only thing beyond Nil was the Overvoid. The unknown description doesn't even fit the Presence given the Presence is the form given shape. This is known and everything else with Snyder was added upon his idea, I don't recall Grant being the head writer but just a collaborator. So his canons are his own with Snyder making his own with additional information to the Multiversity Map which is outdated and isn't used to convey anything in Synder other than references as “Map of the Multiverse.”

Also, the three beings mentioned in the map are not part of a true Creator. They each are the true Creator. The true Creator thing was just a fan-made theory like Presence = Source = Overvoid. You can argue about their nature and power but actual confirmation that they are one and the same. I don't intend for Grant to notion Source = Presence that's simply what Snyder came up with.

I meant to say this so the late response shouldn't be too random.

Morrison never used the term The Presence, or The Presence as God

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Morrison never used the term The Presence, or The Presence as God

He did use the Presence a creator of the Material Plane and Heaven. That was it.

 

[Brahmatman]

He did use the Presence a creator of the Material Plane and Heaven. That was it.

I'm talking about the Unknowable. Most likely, it was he who wounded the Source

 

[Brahmatman]

VeryGoofyToddler

I think it's good for cosmology​

 

[Elizio33]

What should we do with Lex Luthor's information that the idea of the Omniverse was false?

Should we not consider that he was talking about the main multiverse which supposedly became its own “Omniverse” composed of countless universes and multiverses? Because these were just statements and neither the new universes nor multiverses have been explored except for Earth-Omega. Lex also said that the false idea of the Omniverse created an imbalance in the multiverse that Pariah was manipulating. The Greater Omniverse featured in Snyder's stories is real since there are beings who inhabit it.

Then we had Flashpoint Beyond where the Omniverse was mentioned as an actual concept which contradicted what Luthor said earlier.

What do you think?

 

[Asterotheology]

What should we do with Lex Luthor's information that the idea of the Omniverse was false?

Should we not consider that he was talking about the main multiverse which supposedly became its own “Omniverse” composed of countless universes and multiverses? Because these were just statements and neither the new universes nor multiverses have been explored except for Earth-Omega. Lex also said that the false idea of the Omniverse created an imbalance in the multiverse that Pariah was manipulating. The Greater Omniverse featured in Snyder's stories is real since there are beings who inhabit it.

Then we had Flashpoint Beyond where the Omniverse was mentioned as an actual concept which contradicted what Luthor said earlier.

What do you think?

I think we could toss out Lex Luthor's info. I don't recall the exact moment he said that but if it's during Dark Crisis he's wrong. Barry revealed the earths that he explored after the omniverse was brought back post Death Metal. He mentions that he visited earths beyond the known 52 like Earth 55 being DCeased, DC vs Vampires being Earth 63, and Earth 118 is Dark Knight of Steel. It brought back old comic universes like Earth 898 being JLA: The Nail and Amalgam (DC and Marvel) being Earth 1996.

It even revealed the previously unknown earths in the 52.

Earth 14 is now Justice League of Assassins.
Earth 24 is DC Bombshells.
Earth 25 is Tom Strong by Alan Moore.
Earth 27 is The Jurassic League.
Earth 28 is DC Mech.
Earth 46 is Gargoyle of Gotham.
Earth 49 is revealed as Injustice Universe.

That's not the limit by the way. Those are only the ones Barry said he recorded. He passed many more that he didn't study. So, I would say the omniverse was real after Death Metal and Future State. If you want to read it, it's in Dark Crisis Big Bang on page 25 or 24.

 

[Elizio33]

I think we could toss out Lex Luthor's info. I don't recall the exact moment he said that but if it's during Dark Crisis he's wrong. Barry revealed the earths that he explored after the omniverse was brought back post Death Metal. He mentions that he visited earths beyond the known 52 like Earth 55 being DCeased, DC vs Vampires being Earth 63, and Earth 118 is Dark Knight of Steel. It brought back old comic universes like Earth 898 being JLA: The Nail and Amalgam (DC and Marvel) being Earth 1996.

It even revealed the previously unknown earths in the 52.

Earth 14 is now Justice League of Assassins.
Earth 24 is DC Bombshells.
Earth 25 is Tom Strong by Alan Moore.
Earth 27 is The Jurassic League.
Earth 28 is DC Mech.
Earth 46 is Gargoyle of Gotham.
Earth 49 is revealed as Injustice Universe.

That's not the limit by the way. Those are only the ones Barry said he recorded. He passed many more that he didn't study. So, I would say the omniverse was real after Death Metal and Future State. If you want to read it, it's in Dark Crisis Big Bang on page 25 or 24.

Yeah but these were the infinite universes that Pariah 'brought back'. I was talking about the supposedly infinite web of multiverses mentioned at the end of Death Metal and Infinite Frontier.