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5d fuji confirmedDamn, didn't know the universe was as insignificant as flies to you.
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5d fuji confirmedDamn, didn't know the universe was as insignificant as flies to you.
No, we do not assume that, because the two are completely different things in context and meaning.Too busy to keep up but
Infinite contain multiple definitions in itself, from countable infinite to uncountable infinite to higher level of infinity, all of them are infinity, what different betweem them is just the size. Most fiction isn't go that deep and complex into that territory, as all of them can just be refered as infinity, so i find this kind of argument is extremely nitpicky, it is every hard to find fiction verse that is extremely specific about level of infinity unless we talking about verse that solely about mathematic, or authors who are aware of tiering system. Same with the infinitesimal
Take care of your health, brother. Get well soonSorry but I have no interest in Tier 1/Higher Dimensional nonsense of any kind, the comments on this thread are an example as to why I can't stand our standards or make heads or tails of them. I just go out of the hospital yesterday and I'm not feeling up for this discussion so I'm going to leave it for others to handle.
Get well soon!I just go out of the hospital yesterday and I'm not feeling up for this discussion so I'm going to leave it for others to handle.
I don't know why but I can't seem to access the links you have posted here. Besides that, it does seem like the Human World and Demon World aren't the same thing given that the former only emerged as a ray of light at a certain point unlike the DW which basically always existed as a primordial darkness. And that even if they were basically one and the same at one time, Sparda eventually separated them anyway and the two worlds have different laws of physics compared to each other. So, functionally, they aren't the same.Lol, lmao even
The world was born from darkness
Here too
果てなき闇 混沌の坩堝
だが その世界にも一条の光が差し、
やがて世界は二つに分かれた
闇の世は魔界
光の世は人界
二つの世界は共にあり続けた 長い永い間
Raws:
Endless darkness, a crucible of chaos.
But then a ray of light shone in the world.
Eventually, the world was divided into two.
The world of darkness is the demon world.
The world of light is the world of man.
For a long, long time, the two worlds lived together.
Btw, there are 2 reasons why these statements are not used in Bleach.By the way, just so we can shut up over the "demons see the human world as insignificant" bit, we explicitly do not allow claims like this to be used for tiering (that's just one example of many). They are used to represent massive gaps in power and nothing more. And no, applying it to the HW at large isn't any better, since villains saying shit like "this insignificant world..." is trope talk 101; Every damn JRPG on the site would be low 1-C if we used that logic.
On mobile rn so I can’t make a full-fledged response atm, will do so when I have access to a PCWhat exactly do you disagree with?
so this whole situation started because of how utterly atrocious the PoC removal thread was. first of all it was very rushed, had extreme bias against the game itself. didnt even cite sources for what it is arguing for (not even a source for what PoC 2.0 even is). and most importantly, it had no real clue what tier & abilities the verse would be at after its removal. and that all leads us here, half the profiles outdated, the physiology page outdated, the verse page itself outdated. with tiers that werent even a thing before the removal.
so anyway im okay with removing Low 1-C because the argument that is used for Low 1-C right now was never supposed to be used like this. the demon world being infinitely larger than the human world was never meant to grant the demon world Low 1-C by itself, meaning the whole high tiering of the verse, rn is based on a misunderstanding from the other thread. if you read my blog right, it's clear that the manga statements & the mirror world stuff is only meant to be used in conjunction with the 9D statement applying to the demon world. in regards if they do make the demon world Low 1-C by themselves. i do not know. i heard some stuff that if a realm contains and is infinitely bigger than a 4D realm that makes it low 1-C but like i said im not an expert on this particular subject.
you said only downgraders & DMC supporters should comment and im the DMC supporter who originally came up with tier 1 DMC to begin with. so i think i should have a voice hereThank you for clearing some things up. Also please everyone (me included). This is a staff thread. Let's not speak without permission. Though the above post is informative and should remain.
you said only downgraders & DMC supporters should comment and im the DMC supporter who originally came up with tier 1 DMC to begin with. so i think i should have a voice here
Idk what was said initially but this thread was recently moved to being a Staff Discussionyou said only downgraders & DMC supporters should comment and im the DMC supporter who originally came up with tier 1 DMC to begin with. so i think i should have a voice here
"The demon world seeing the human world as infinitesimal is at best Low 1-C. But even that has its host of standards that must be adhered to."Actually, there is one point I would like to mention.
Sir_Ovens agreed to keeping Low 1-C via the "ray of light" stuff in case PoC was rejected. Thrice in a row.
Not supporting anyone's side here, just mentioning some points people might've forgotten.
EDIT: Fourth comment found.
Let me just you simple Set theory to address this with as little English as possible and keep it logical, because people twist sentences a lot.1. The Demon World is an infinitely large space-time that sees the Human World, a place with universal-sized space-time, as infinitely small. This is the main evidence for Low 1-C.
First thing first:-2. The Mirror World, which reflects the human world, lacks strong evidence of being a low 2-C structure. Furthermore, it is not embedded within the Demon World, as travel from the Mirror World to the Demon World requires the use of a portal, and both Ultima and DT have stated in other threads that containing a low 2-C structure is not necessarily evidence of low 1-C.
“Saying that it "Mirrors your world" does not automatically equate to mirroring the entire universe you came from as World can also mean planet. And it can even refer to locations in between planet and Universe. And even if the realms are larger than planet sized, the "Your World" aspect often refers to specific sceneries rather than the entire Space-Time Continuum. And just because world frequently refers to universe doesn't mean everything larger than a planet that is called a world is a universe.”
First of all I disgaree with DT in certain context, while not in another.3. The Demon World is infinitely larger than the Human World; However, this does not mean it has the qualitative superiority needed for tier 1, as QS is defined as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size". DT has also outright said that being infinitely larger than low 2-C is not good enough for tier 1.
Okay, yes. This I understand entirely. In fact, I agree with it. The problem is that this is not actually enough for low 1-C. The HW is effectively infinite because it is low 2-C. As you put it, the DW is the HW x infinity. Except under the current tiering standards, infinity x infinity isn't low 1-C. This is because infinity x infinity would merely be infinity + infinity + infinity ad infinitum, which is just regular infinity. Rather, to get something like qualitative superiority you'd need infinity^infinity (ie; infinity x infinity x infinity... repeating infinitely). As DT has put it, in order to get a higher level of infinity, you'd need an infinite exponent.We are told in Manga that DW > HW in size by an ∞ amount.
So let's write it as HW x ∞ <=DW.
Can also be written as HW{Space x ∞, time x ∞, matter x ∞} = DW{ Space, Time, Matter }
If it's irrelevant then I'll just drop it lol. But I'll also point to the same statements from Ultima and DT saying that just having a low 2-C structure inside of a bigger structure does not qualify for low 1-C.3) Irrelevancy of MW in scheme of Low1C
The Mirror World is irrelevant in the grander scheme of Low1C. It's sole purpose was to display that a low2C realm is embedded in Higher Dimensional Latice of DW as of present timeline in DMC. Which is unnecessary because Human World did used to serve that function back when it was born and brought up inside Demon World. But since it has the current status of separation from DW credits to Pluto, a more current example of Demon World encompassing a low2C realm was
preferable. Which Mirror World did spectacularly. But HW serves the same function in so far as encompassment is concerned.
It absolutely isn't. Any realm that's low 2-C or higher can't be accessed through physical travel, because of this clause on our universe page:Wouldn't needing a portal to get to the Demon World support it being of a higher dimensionality? I say this because realms of a higher dimensionality can't be accessed through normal means, such as physical travel. This is something that's even noted in our standards for higher dimensions. So the necessity of a portal to access the Demon World would actually indicate that it cannot be accessed through normal means.
Actually, like you pointed out, it'd apply to many pocket realms as well. It doesn't help to prove how big a space is, just that its its own space-time (which, in the case of the DW, is true)."It should be recognized that travel between universes is not feasible unless through the use of a portal or similar unusual mechanisms. This is because it should be impossible for two distinct universes to be connected by a path that only goes through regular 3 dimensional space. Universes must be separated by something other than 3 dimensional distance or physical barriers, otherwise they would be considered to both be part of one large universe for our tiering purposes."
...No? We explicitly disallow higher degrees of 2-A. There is no "above baseline 2-A".The thing about Multiverses is that it has more to do with collection/numbers/count of universes. Rather than their size as whole added individually. Especially since the only reason Multiverse destruction is special because of 5D space between universes which is assumed as unkown distance between universes.
It is also how one 2A multiverse can be scaled over and above another 2A multiverse in range and/or power without number of universes ever being factor. Unless of course number of universes equal Uncountable Infinity in number. This interuniversal/interdimensional difference is also responsible for low1C incase it is infinite.
Glad we agree on thisNow when you compare sizes of two seperate and exclusive/external universes in a vacuum in then DT is right. One 4D isn't necessarily bigger than other 4D. Which is why whether it is Planck length sized spatial dimension or infinite sized spatial dimension, mathematically both are low2C, because such is size is dictated by temporal dimension, due to it's shtick of uncountable infinity.
...No, because like I've pointed out a hundred times before, encompassing a low 2-C structure isn't low 1-C. This is something that - as I mentioned earlier - both Ultima and DT have outright said. The fact of the matter is, you can't just skip the requirement for qualitative superiority just because one realm encompasses another; You need QS for any of this shit to fly, so until you prove that, none of this matters.But coming to the main point, where DT is wrong is when two realms are compared in size when one is encompassed by another. Because now you are dealing with one universe laid out in higher dimension of another universe. And this interdimensional distance being infnite is what makes encompassing universe a low1C structure.
The latter just doesn't work at all, because shit like that is textbook flowery language that showcases the massive difference in power between demons and humans, or how lowly they think of the human realm as a whole; They're not going "the human realm is pathetic specifically because I inhabit a higher-dimensional space that lets me trivialize 4-dimensional space-times", and we shouldn't assume that.All in all the manga statements of 1) light vs dark infinite sizes and 2) Demon Species and Underworld as a whole observing HW as an insignificant thing. Both offer qualitative and quantitative proof for low1C DW.
How many times do I have to teach you this lesson, old man??Aside from that Ultima has already clarified that the excepts you posted from tiering QnA apply for power of characters not size of structures.
And yes, this does matter, because you can't downgrade a verse to a stat nobody agreed to. Imagine if TTGL lost its high 1-C rating, and then someone edited the verse down to 1-C; Would that not be completely against the rules?I know it was said that it wasn't intended to be Low 1-C, but honestly... I don't see how that matters? Things don't go according to plan, but that doesn't mean they should be axed simply because they didn't go according to plan.
Also this was literally uncalled for. Especially the heading. Please do not do this again in the future. Staff are watching.
You say "nobody" when it was just one person saying they didn't intend for the rating to become this. Not how it works. If the arguments for it exist, you can't just say "well it wasn't intended so no"And yes, this does matter, because you can't downgrade a verse to a stat nobody agreed to. Imagine if TTGL lost its high 1-C rating, and then someone edited the verse down to 1-C; Would that not be completely against the rules?
It absolutely isn't. Any realm that's low 2-C or higher can't be accessed through physical travel, because of this clause on our universe page:
Actually, like you pointed out, it'd apply to many pocket realms as well. It doesn't help to prove how big a space is, just that its its own space-time (which, in the case of the DW, is true).
Yeah man a footnote at the end of a completely unrelated CRT is totally a good reason to change an entire verse's rating to low 1-C.You say "nobody" when it was just one person saying they didn't intend for the rating to become this. Not how it works. If the arguments for it exist, you can't just say "well it wasn't intended so no"
Perhaps this wouldn't be an issue if the opposition wasn't uh. Blatantly fucking lying? Because I have seen multiple people claim that the QS definition doesn't mention size, when it very obviously and repeatedly does.Also this was literally uncalled for. Especially the heading. Please do not do this again in the future. Staff are watching.
Drop the accusations Fuji, this isn't helping anyone here.Perhaps this wouldn't be an issue if the opposition wasn't uh. Blatantly fucking lying? Because I have seen multiple people claim that the QS definition doesn't mention size, when it very obviously and repeatedly does.
Ah yes, because Ovens didn't agree shit would be Low 1-C in the 4 different comments KLOL posted. Or the fact that we made 2 threads and people agreed both times.And yes, this does matter, because you can't downgrade a verse to a stat nobody agreed to. Imagine if TTGL lost its high 1-C rating, and then someone edited the verse down to 1-C; Would that not be completely against the rules?
Absolutely not. You cannot sit here and tell me that saying "size isn't on the FAQ" isn't an obvious lie when, you know,Drop the accusations Fuji, this isn't helping anyone here.
He stated that it would be low 1-C at best, and it would need to meet the very specific standards we have for tier 1. Which it doesn't because your only evidence is "it's infinitely larger than infinity", which about a dozen different sources can tell you isn't low 1-C.Ah yes, because Ovens didn't agree shit would be Low 1-C in the 4 different comments KLOL posted.
By the logic of the infinite, all (countable) infinites are the same size; it is unintuitive, but it is math.He stated that it would be low 1-C at best, and it would need to meet the very specific standards we have for tier 1. Which it doesn't because your only evidence is "it's infinitely larger than infinity", which about a dozen different sources can tell you isn't low 1-C.