DMC Downgrades (the ones everyone expected)

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

It is, after all, possible for one low 2-C space to see another as infinitely small if one has infinite spatial extent and the other does not. One would technically be infinitely larger, but not to the point of qualifying as a higher dimension.

I don’t quite agree with this logic. In order to be Low 2-C to begin with, you would need an infinite spatial axis to begin with. This is why there’s a difference between the observable universe (3-A), an infinite amount of 3-D space (High 3-A), and Low 2-C, a literal combination of both (3 infinite axes of space, and one time axis that subsequently responds infinitely as well).

I have no stake in this, by the way, I just disagree with that statement.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sees thread

I'll be watching and will give my opinion later

 

[ShivaShakti]

Yeah, like I said, Mad_Dog has issues with that statement.

Her argument isn't very good.

You can't exactly be countably larger than an infinity. And typically temporal continuums are always acknowledged as being infinite in size regardless of spatial limit.

And we know that the time of the demon world is not the same as the human world.

 

[Vietthai96]

Furthermore, a statement of an object being (x)-dimensional is not an indication of qualitative superiority, or higher dimensionality. There are many examples of this, ranging from Ben 10 to Popeye, to the extent that such tier 1 scaling is practically regarded as a joke in the community. More than that, though, using the one-off phrases of “higher dimension” and “nine-dimensional” is not even enough for tier 1, as the tiering system FAQ explains:

I disagree with this, because qualitative superiority is just one of many way to reach higher tier. And directly from FAQ you quoted

“However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify.”

You forgot the bolded part, which is DMC case belong to, what is fully-sized is??, it is that the higher dimensional in question should be significant in size to qualify for the tier, from DMC contexts, the Human World which is legit Low 2-C structure is just a ray of light, an infinitely small thing in infinite darkness which is the Demon Realm, thus Demon Realm is a nine-dimensional realm which is significantly large in size, or on the other word, a realm which have 9 infinite dimensional axes, practically textbook 1-C structure.

The Eightfold Path is not really an argument here, because the one who make the blog quoted the full contexts rather than crop it, it just these for mostly nothing, otherwise if DMC supporters truly trying to use Eightfold Path as literal, DMC is tier 0 not 1-C. Eightfold Path is like, just these to prove that DMC do acknowledge Buddhist and the existent of higher dimensional realm, that all which is at best minor supporting context

Anyway, while i disagree with 1-C DMC, i also disagree with the premise of this thread. Back then i disagree with 1-C DMC is because nothing proved Demon Realm is actually a nine-dimensional realm and these is an unknown realm which is higher than both Demon Realm and Human World which the soul return to, and PoC didn't elaborated further.

Anyway i just say this, and since i'm just a casual DMC player and not a PoC player, i will just leave this matter to real supporters of the verse

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don’t quite agree with this logic. In order to be Low 2-C to begin with, you would need an infinite spatial axis to begin with. This is why there’s a difference between the observable universe (3-A), an infinite amount of 3-D space (High 3-A), and Low 2-C, a literal combination of both (3 infinite axes of space, and one time axis that subsequently responds infinitely as well).

I have no stake in this, by the way, I just disagree with that statement.

Uh, no? I can name at least a few verses which have low 2-C despite having no infinite spatial axes (axises?). As far as I'm aware, we simply require low 2-C to be a space equal to or larger than 3-A (the observable universe) + a temporal axis. Our own tiering system simply says "a space-time continuum of universal scale", which doesn't imply infinite spatial extent.

You can't exactly be countably larger than an infinity. And typically temporal continuums are always acknowledged as being infinite in size regardless of spatial limit.

And we know that the time of the demon world is not the same as the human world.

I've asked this exact question in regards to low 2-C spaces and the answer was a resounding no, so I'm curious where you're getting that from. To my knowledge, we only treat spaces larger than infinite as higher-dimensional in regards to 2-A structures, while being larger than anything below doesn't count.

Not sure how the last part is super relevant, either.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Uh, no? I can name at least a few verses which have low 2-C despite having no infinite spatial axes (axises?). As far as I'm aware, we simply require low 2-C to be a space equal to or larger than 3-A (the observable universe) + a temporal axis. Our own tiering system simply says "a space-time continuum of universal scale", which doesn't imply infinite spatial extent.


I've asked this exact question in regards to low 2-C spaces and the answer was a resounding no, so I'm curious where you're getting that from. To my knowledge, we only treat spaces larger than infinite as higher-dimensional in regards to 2-A structures, while being larger than anything below doesn't count.

Not sure how the last part is super relevant, either.

Then you were told wrong.

Being larger than a 4-D space is 5-D.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Then you were told wrong.

Being larger than a 4-D space is 5-D.

Cries in Yggdrasil, by tree got done dirty

 

[Cyberblader90]

one thing that I would like if could be verified if possible:

次元 - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

日本動漫迷使用術語列表 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书

zh.wikipedia.org

次元 means dimension in the way it's commonly used in fiction, while 維度 very specifically means spatial dimension

POC uses:

灵魂
它继续隐藏着人类和恶魔都不了解的奥秘，但所有人都拥有这些奥秘。
一种基本的九维形式，一般来说，它起源于并返回到八正道之外的更高维度。
它不仅包含心灵和记忆，还包含自古以来本体及其祖先的所有信息。

 

[KLOL506]

Cries in Yggdrasil, by tree got done dirty

Meanwhile Kingdom Hearts got a full ******* pass and so did Bayo

 

[DaReaperMan]

Meanwhile Kingdom Hearts got a full ******* pass and so did Bayo

Well Kingdom hearts has Bob

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Uh, no? I can name at least a few verses which have low 2-C despite having no infinite spatial axes (axises?). As far as I'm aware, we simply require low 2-C to be a space equal to or larger than 3-A (the observable universe) + a temporal axis. Our own tiering system simply says "a space-time continuum of universal scale", which doesn't imply infinite spatial extent.

But this isn’t the case. The gap between Tier 3 & 2 is, as the wiki states, infinitely greater. It would require a space-time continuum to be infinitely bigger than a simple 3-D one.

Characters or objects that are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums (the entire past, present and future of 3-dimensional space) of a universal scale.

 

[Cyberblader90]

does anyone know someone who is a chinese speaker

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Then you were told wrong.

Being larger than a 4-D space is a 5-D.

not how i expected to get 7D Touhou but I'll take it

Jokes aside, I find it odd that this is applied to virtually no profiles that this would apply to, so again, really curious where this is coming from.

I disagree with this, because qualitative superiority is just one of many way to reach higher tier. And directly from FAQ you quoted

And the scans used to prove tier 1 DMC do not meet any of the extra criteria, so what's your point?

I disagree with this, because qualitative superiority is just one of many way to reach higher tier. And directly from FAQ you quoted

You forgot the bolded part, which is DMC case belong to, what is fully-sized is??, it is that the higher dimensional in question should be significant in size to qualify for the tier, from DMC contexts, the Human World which is legit Low 2-C structure is just a ray of light, an infinitely small thing in infinite darkness which is the Demon Realm, thus Demon Realm is a nine-dimensional realm which is significantly large in size, or on the other word, a realm which have 9 infinite dimensional axes, practically textbook 1-C structure.

Again, what proves that the ray of light thing is a direct, literal representation of the size difference between realms? The human world isn't even stated to be infinitely small in comparison, just... vaguely smaller than the demon world, which again can just be accomplished by having differing spatial extents and not dimensional superiority. Rays of light aren't infinitely small, and I really have no idea where this keeps coming from.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Meanwhile Kingdom Hearts got a full ******* pass and so did Bayo

Let it be known, I was the one who found the relevance in the Bayonetta 3 statement, and I made Kingdom Hearts tier 1 because I was bored that day.

 

[DaReaperMan]

does anyone know someone who is a chinese speaker

I know someone who is Español, but chinese? Well it's been a few years since she took those classes lol

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But this isn’t the case. The gap between Tier 3 & 2 is, as the wiki states, infinitely greater. It would require a space-time continuum to be infinitely bigger than a simple 3-D one.

The gap is infinitely greater because every moment of time in a space-time continuum contains uncountably infinite "snapshots" of 3D space. This means a finite low 2-C space will always be bigger than a high 3-A space, because the time axis more than compensates for the difference in spatial extent (that's my understanding of it, anyways). It has very little to do with actual spatial extent.

 

[KLOL506]

does anyone know someone who is a chinese speaker

@Jasonsith, he translated that Soul scan for us in the Translation Request thread.

 

[ShivaShakti]

The gap is infinitely greater because every moment of time in a space-time continuum contains uncountably infinite "snapshots" of 3D space. This means a finite low 2-C space will always be bigger than a high 3-A space, because the time axis more than compensates for the difference in spatial extent (that's my understanding of it, anyways). It has very little to do with actual spatial extent.

You realize the demon world and mortal world have separate space-times, yes? Why are you assuming the the spark of light is only space?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree with the downgrade

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The gap is infinitely greater because every moment of time in a space-time continuum contains uncountably infinite "snapshots" of 3D space. This means a finite low 2-C space will always be bigger than a high 3-A space, because the time axis more than compensates for the difference in spatial extent (that's my understanding of it, anyways). It has very little to do with actual spatial extent.

You realize that means the time of said space would have to accompany an infinite amount of space, right? Therefore making the space, and time, infinite in relation to the 3-D space, creating a 4-D manifold.

 

[Cyberblader90]

well the ray of light is mentioned to be what split the realms, alongside pluto's contribution

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dmc-downgrades-the-ones-everyone-expected.149392/post-5481700

 

[Palito266]

one thing that I would like if could be verified if possible:

次元 - Wiktionary, the free dictionary

en.wiktionary.org

日本動漫迷使用術語列表 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书

zh.wikipedia.org

次元 means dimension in the way it's commonly used in fiction, while 維度 very specifically means spatial dimension

POC uses:

灵魂
它继续隐藏着人类和恶魔都不了解的奥秘，但所有人都拥有这些奥秘。
一种基本的九维形式，一般来说，它起源于并返回到八正道之外的更高维度。
它不仅包含心灵和记忆，还包含自古以来本体及其祖先的所有信息。

Well...

PoC:

灵魂
它继续隐藏着人类和恶魔都不了解的奥秘，但所有人都拥有这些奥秘。
一种基本的九维形式，一般来说，它起源于并返回到八正道之外的更高维度。
它不仅包含心灵和记忆，还包含自古以来本体及其祖先的所有信息。
I am no genius at the language and i don't know it so feel free to correct it since it's really complex from what i've seen.

 

[Cyberblader90]

not what i mean, im wondering if those characters meaning that is correct. If someone fluent can speak on the matter

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You realize the demon world and mortal world have separate space-times, yes? Why are you assuming the the spark of light is only space?

I uh, wasn't. Not sure if I actually implied that.

You realize that means the time of said space would have to accompany an infinite amount of space, right? Therefore making the space, and time, infinite in relation to the 3-D space, creating a 4-D manifold.

What ******* bizarro world VSBW are you on where spatially finite space-times don't exist? Our universe, for one, and space-times in verses like Dragon Ball come to mind.

well the ray of light is mentioned to be what split the realms, alongside pluto's contribution

https://vsbattles.com/threads/dmc-downgrades-the-ones-everyone-expected.149392/post-5481700

Anyways, as Cyber said, the ray of light may not even necessarily be the human world, so let's maybe focus on this point before deciding whether or not to keep arguing on whether or not the statement is literal or implies qualitative superiority.

 

[Vietthai96]

And the scans used to prove tier 1 DMC do not meet any of the extra criteria, so what's your point?


Again, what proves that the ray of light thing is a direct, literal representation of the size difference between realms? The human world isn't even stated to be infinitely small in comparison, just... vaguely smaller than the demon world, which again can just be accomplished by having differing spatial extents and not dimensional superiority. Rays of light aren't infinitely small, and I really have no idea where this keeps coming from.

1. Please read my entire comment, i already explained it

2. That is what DMC supporters need to prove, i just explained what was accepted back then to make DMC 1-C. Also, what is ray of light in infinite darkness sound to you??, it still mean Demon Realm is infinitely large and far larger than the Human World which fit the criteria of Demon Realm being fully-sized, significantly large in size which can be tiered.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I uh, wasn't. Not sure if I actually implied that.

You keep saying that a Low 2-C structure can view another Low 2-C structure as infinitely smaller if it is spatially finite.

So you're implying that the speck of light is only space and does not contain the time of the mortal world. Which isn't true.

 

[Cyberblader90]

the ray of light is really weird, poc describes it almost like an event

we do know that Pluto had some contribution to the split. That said, im not exactly convinced the ray helps tier 1 at all

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What ******* bizarro world VSBW are you on where spatially finite space-times don't exist? Our universe, for one, and space-times in verses like Dragon Ball come to mind.

I’m saying it can’t be, if a space-time requires an infinite amount of 3-D space & 1-dimension of time.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Following for now, I’ll let the arguments play out before I give any thoughts

 

[Comicgyal]

Agree with the downgrade, as I need Bayonetta to be the strongest action game.

But seriously, neutral for now.

 

[Cyberblader90]

as I need Bayonetta to be the strongest action game.

one day it shall be Asura.... if capcom gave a damn

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I mentioned this before during DMC's upgrade to 1-C, but given the demon world sees the human world as nothing but a line of light, it should be qualitatively superior enough to be Low 1-C at the very least.

That being said, I agree that the eightfold path reasoning is pretty weak, and thr 9D scan by itself means absolutely nothing so it shouldn't scale in the first place.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Welp let's have some fun.

Lets start with the manga thing.

The demon world is called as the darkness because that is it's name, its the world of darkness, in this realm there are several dimensions (of unknown sizes) but we know that the demon world is indeed infinitely bigger than any of them including the human world or the world of light which is described as just a ray of light in the endless darkness that is the demon world. This isn't flowery, its literally talking about how they compare each other or in other words how big one is compared to the other.

Furthermore one such realm is the mirror dimension, this dimension which is a perfect copy of the human world (the human world is Low 2-C if it wasnt obvious enough) yet it is only the "entrance" to it. There are more like Mundus dimension which is an infinitely expanding universe beyond human understanding yet it only serves as a battleground for Mundus and Dante

Basically none of this shit is flowery language. And as per the tiering system and the FAQ this perfectly qualifies for Tier 1, specifically Low 1-C:

Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level​

Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

A. One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

Second is the 9D stuff.

The soul is stated to be a basic nine dimensional item, in a geometrical sense as the name says (or the words used in this case as shown by Cyber) which originates and returns to a higher dimension said higher dimension being the demon world as the blog shows. This has nothing to do with the eightfold path or the nirvana shit.

This would make the demon world capable of creating 9 dimensional items which as it's stated to be the entire origin of said object and on top of that it's stated to be higher dimensional. Just how 3D beings get created in 3D places. A 2D realm does not have the space within it to create or be the origin of a 3D being the primordial chaos is the origin of 9D things this should, especially when it's stated to be higher dimensional, make it also 9th Dimensional. This is according to this thread and what the page says:

However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify

Also we were told that infinite hypervolume from higher dimensional spaces qualifies for higher tiers (both in the thread linked above and here) which supports our perfect wank

As a side note even fodder demons see the human world as "insignificant and like insects to them" and Arkham (a schoolar about demons and all that shit) says they are like looking at infinite

well the ray of light is mentioned to be what split the realms, alongside pluto's contribution
https://media.discordapp.net/attach.../Screenshot_20220612-072708_File_Manager_.jpg
[URL unfurl="true"]https://vsbattles.com/threads/dmc-downgrades-the-ones-everyone-expected.149392/post-5481700[/URL]

Finally this. This argument was kinda destroyed when we had to explain how Pluto did absolutely everything. The creation of the light aka the human world did not separate the realms, just brought chaos and pandemonium.

Also if there are scans missing just ask, I got lazy mid way through this

 

[Cyberblader90]

but given the demon world sees the human world as nothing but a line of light, it should be qualitatively superior enough to be Low 1-C at the very least.

This part, seems to be up for discussion as well. The "ray of light" is more described as an event in POC, rather than a location

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

This part, seems to be up for discussion as well. The "ray of light" is more described as an event in POC, rather than a location

It isn't, the manga gave us a pretty nice run down of how shit went down and how Pluto did everything, something we explained in the pluto downgrade thread

 

[Cyberblader90]

Welp let's have some fun.

Lets start with the manga thing.

The demon world is called as the darkness because that is it's name, its the world of darkness, in this realm there are several dimensions (of unknown sizes) but we know that the demon world is indeed infinitely bigger than any of them including the human world or the world of light which is described as just a ray of light in the endless darkness that is the demon world. This isn't flowery, its literally talking about how they compare each other or in other words how big one is compared to the other.

Furthermore one such realm is the mirror dimension, this dimension which is a perfect copy of the human world (the human world is Low 2-C if it wasnt obvious enough) yet it is only the "entrance" to it. There are more like Mundus dimension which is an infinitely expanding universe beyond human understanding yet it only serves as a battleground for Mundus and Dante

Basically none of this shit is flowery language. And as per the tiering system and the FAQ this perfectly qualifies for Tier 1, specifically Low 1-C:

Low 1-C: Low Complex Multiverse level​

Characters or objects that can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

A. One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.

Second is the 9D stuff.

The soul is stated to be a basic nine dimensional item, in a geometrical sense as the name says (or the words used in this case as shown by Cyber) which originates and returns to a higher dimension said higher dimension being the demon world as the blog shows. This has nothing to do with the eightfold path or the nirvana shit.

This would make the demon world capable of creating 9 dimensional items which as it's stated to be the entire origin of said object and on top of that it's stated to be higher dimensional. Just how 3D beings get created in 3D places. A 2D realm does not have the space within it to create or be the origin of a 3D being the primordial chaos is the origin of 9D things this should, especially when it's stated to be higher dimensional, make it also 9th Dimensional. This is according to this thread and what the page says:



Also we were told that infinite hypervolume from higher dimensional spaces qualifies for higher tiers (both in the thread linked above and here) which supports our perfect wank

As a side note even fodder demons see the human world as "insignificant and like insects to them" and Arkham (a schoolar about demons and all that shit) says they are like looking at infinite

Finally this. This argument was kinda destroyed when we had to explain how Pluto did absolutely everything. The creation of the light aka the human world did not separate the realms, just brought chaos and pandemonium.

Also if there are scans missing just ask, I got lazy mid way through this

Finally this. This argument was kinda destroyed when we had to explain how Pluto did absolutely everything. The creation of the light aka the human world did not separate the realms, just brought chaos and pandemonium.

Sure I agree pluto split them. But POC also says the first light split the chaos into its current two parts

"Until the first light split the world in half, such stones were nowhere to be found. They are full of the power of the original chaos, but now they are becoming increasingly rare."

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

It isn't, the manga gave us a pretty nice run down of how shit went down and how Pluto did everything, something we explained in the pluto downgrade thread

Here. The light did not separate anything, it just brought chaos and other shit which is why pluto got up from his chair and penetrated the world

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

i agree with that, sounds like hyperbole to me lol

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Also just for posterity's sake.
Human World is not the one half of split world, since it is the ray of light. Not half of Darkness.

PoC statement talking about some other event entirely.

 

[Cyberblader90]

why would it be a seperate event

theres only ever been one ray of light