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5d fuji confirmed
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Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]
- Thread starter Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- devil may cry
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Georredannea15
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No, we do not assume that, because the two are completely different things in context and meaning.
Georredannea15
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Take care of your health, brother. Get well soon
Serlock_Holmes
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Get well soon!
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- #165
Alright yall had your chance, this is a staff thread now and everyone gets to shut up. Obviously Gilver can still comment here since he's making a response.
ÆONS
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I don't know why but I can't seem to access the links you have posted here. Besides that, it does seem like the Human World and Demon World aren't the same thing given that the former only emerged as a ray of light at a certain point unlike the DW which basically always existed as a primordial darkness. And that even if they were basically one and the same at one time, Sparda eventually separated them anyway and the two worlds have different laws of physics compared to each other. So, functionally, they aren't the same.
I'm still unsure as for whether the Human World itself is genuinely universal (Low 2-C) in size so I'd like to see some scans that prove that and that they can be accessible for me.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I'd prefer to not make a whole new thread just because of some derailment. At worst, we can just link to our old arguments if staff ask for a tl;dr here.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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By the way, just so we can shut up over the "demons see the human world as insignificant" bit, we explicitly do not allow claims like this to be used for tiering (that's just one example of many). They are used to represent massive gaps in power and nothing more. And no, applying it to the HW at large isn't any better, since villains saying shit like "this insignificant world..." is trope talk 101; Every damn JRPG on the site would be low 1-C if we used that logic.
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Atm I’m in disagreement with the downgrade, though this could change later
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- #171
What exactly do you disagree with?
Georredannea15
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Btw, there are 2 reasons why these statements are not used in Bleach.
1- Aizen's statements are exaggerated (statements that Aizen uses as exaggerations under the influence of power)
2- These statements have anti-feats in the verse.
It's not related to the topic but I wanted to say it. Because the situation here is different. There is no figurative meaning or anti-feats here
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On mobile rn so I can’t make a full-fledged response atm, will do so when I have access to a PC
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so this whole situation started because of how utterly atrocious the PoC removal thread was. first of all it was very rushed, had extreme bias against the game itself. didnt even cite sources for what it is arguing for (not even a source for what PoC 2.0 even is). and most importantly, it had no real clue what tier & abilities the verse would be at after its removal. and that all leads us here, half the profiles outdated, the physiology page outdated, the verse page itself outdated. with tiers that werent even a thing before the removal.
so anyway im okay with removing Low 1-C because the argument that is used for Low 1-C right now was never supposed to be used like this. the demon world being infinitely larger than the human world was never meant to grant the demon world Low 1-C by itself, meaning the whole high tiering of the verse, rn is based on a misunderstanding from the other thread. if you read my blog right, it's clear that the manga statements & the mirror world stuff is only meant to be used in conjunction with the 9D statement applying to the demon world. in regards if they do make the demon world Low 1-C by themselves. i do not know. i heard some stuff that if a realm contains and is infinitely bigger than a 4D realm that makes it low 1-C but like i said im not an expert on this particular subject.
so anyway im okay with removing Low 1-C because the argument that is used for Low 1-C right now was never supposed to be used like this. the demon world being infinitely larger than the human world was never meant to grant the demon world Low 1-C by itself, meaning the whole high tiering of the verse, rn is based on a misunderstanding from the other thread. if you read my blog right, it's clear that the manga statements & the mirror world stuff is only meant to be used in conjunction with the 9D statement applying to the demon world. in regards if they do make the demon world Low 1-C by themselves. i do not know. i heard some stuff that if a realm contains and is infinitely bigger than a 4D realm that makes it low 1-C but like i said im not an expert on this particular subject.
Serlock_Holmes
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Thank you for clearing some things up. Also please everyone (me included). This is a staff thread. Let's not speak without permission. Though the above post is informative and should remain.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- #176
Right, I have no problem with the above post staying because it's literally the guy who made the upgrade admitting that it's currently wrong and should be removed.
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you said only downgraders & DMC supporters should comment and im the DMC supporter who originally came up with tier 1 DMC to begin with. so i think i should have a voice here
Serlock_Holmes
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Staff threads generally should only be replied by the op of the thread and the staff members. Anyone else needs permission me included so my posts may very well be deleted if the staff feels they offer nothing. I think admin's give permission for one post and bureocrats permanent permission.
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Idk what was said initially but this thread was recently moved to being a Staff Discussion
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Sevil’s allowed to talk here, the tier 1 upgrades for DMC was his project so he should have a say on this thread.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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One thing I do want to emphasize real quick is that low 1-C was technically never accepted in any CRT - It was only 2-C before PoC, and then PoC made it 9D specifically because of the context exclusive to PoC, but now that we're not using it anymore, low 1-C has no reason to stay (with the OP of the 9D thread saying he never intended to use the ray of light thing as anything more than supporting evidence). It's applying a thread that never existed, basically.
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Actually, there is one point I would like to mention.
Sir_Ovens agreed to keeping Low 1-C via the "ray of light" stuff in case PoC was rejected. Thrice in a row.
Not supporting anyone's side here, just mentioning some points people might've forgotten.
EDIT: Fourth comment found.
Sir_Ovens agreed to keeping Low 1-C via the "ray of light" stuff in case PoC was rejected. Thrice in a row.
Not supporting anyone's side here, just mentioning some points people might've forgotten.
EDIT: Fourth comment found.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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"The demon world seeing the human world as infinitesimal is at best Low 1-C. But even that has its host of standards that must be adhered to."
The entire point of this thread is to point out how the ray of light statement does not meet those standards.
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Let me fix that for you
Let's assume every realm is a set, they have their constituent elements.
HW = {space, time, matter}, DW = {space, time, matter} ( keeping aside time itself is a set of uncountable infinite number of space, and space itself contains matter)
We are told in Manga that DW > HW in size by an ∞ amount.
So let's write it as HW x ∞ <=DW.
Can also be written as HW{Space x ∞, time x ∞, matter x ∞} = DW{ Space, Time, Matter }
Not meant to be mathematical at all, but gets the point across in as less sentences as possible.
Like I have said before I am saying again. Applying comparison exclusively to a literally infinitesimal component of both realms instead of realms as a whole in their simplest and complete capacity is illogical at best and outright dishonest at worst.
Let me just you simple Set theory to address this with as little English as possible and keep it logical, because people twist sentences a lot.
Let's assume every realm is a set, they have their constituent elements.
HW = {space, time, matter}, DW = {space, time, matter} ( keeping aside time itself is a set of uncountable infinite number of space, and space itself contains matter)
We are told in Manga that DW > HW in size by an ∞ amount.
So let's write it as HW x ∞ <=DW.
Can also be written as HW{Space x ∞, time x ∞, matter x ∞} = DW{ Space, Time, Matter }
Not meant to be mathematical at all, but gets the point across in as less sentences as possible.
Like I have said before I am saying again. Applying comparison exclusively to a literally infinitesimal component of both realms instead of realms as a whole in their simplest and complete capacity is illogical at best and outright dishonest at worst.
First thing first:-
1) The size of the Mirror corresponds to the entire size of the Human World
because it reflects the Human World, not some specific components of it exclusively. Because mirrors give images the same size as objects. That's the most basic property.
Counter Point:- But the standards say https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Universe?so=search
Thus the Mirror Universe can't be low2C.
Rebuttal :- These standards matter not because it's not their job to dictate the size or composition or nature of objects in fiction. They are not the arbiters of such attributes. Their job is to just find and measure the size of objects given by the fictional verse like a ruling tape, it is not their job to decide arbitrarily what size objects should be in fiction. It's the right of the verse alone to decide that solely. Especially since the standards here arbitrarily assume certain scenarios without any authority and assumes them as truth. And it being used as "catch all" definition and guideline to dictate verses is also wrong because context is king, which the standard overrides unfairly and blindly.
Thus those standards don't apply. I don't need to change the standards to reject them here, simply because they are not sacrosanct as gospel or accurate like some scientific principle. Their job is to determine, not dictate. Which they fail to do spectacularly.
Aside from that Mirror World also has a seperate flow of time, Because Divine Goddess of Space and Time does not authority in Mirror World. While her presence and power is consistent throughout both the Human and Demon Realm whose space-times come under her governance, her fake statue mocked up by Mirror Realm cannot act as avatar of her power. Conclusively displaying that space-time of Mirror Realm is isolated from al other realms in current creation. Not only showing that MW space-time is a twisted and reversed reflected replica of Human World, it is also separate.
The sun in the Human World
The Sun in the Mirror World
Counter Point:- But the standards say https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Universe?so=search
Thus the Mirror Universe can't be low2C.
Rebuttal :- These standards matter not because it's not their job to dictate the size or composition or nature of objects in fiction. They are not the arbiters of such attributes. Their job is to just find and measure the size of objects given by the fictional verse like a ruling tape, it is not their job to decide arbitrarily what size objects should be in fiction. It's the right of the verse alone to decide that solely. Especially since the standards here arbitrarily assume certain scenarios without any authority and assumes them as truth. And it being used as "catch all" definition and guideline to dictate verses is also wrong because context is king, which the standard overrides unfairly and blindly.
Thus those standards don't apply. I don't need to change the standards to reject them here, simply because they are not sacrosanct as gospel or accurate like some scientific principle. Their job is to determine, not dictate. Which they fail to do spectacularly.
Aside from that Mirror World also has a seperate flow of time, Because Divine Goddess of Space and Time does not authority in Mirror World. While her presence and power is consistent throughout both the Human and Demon Realm whose space-times come under her governance, her fake statue mocked up by Mirror Realm cannot act as avatar of her power. Conclusively displaying that space-time of Mirror Realm is isolated from al other realms in current creation. Not only showing that MW space-time is a twisted and reversed reflected replica of Human World, it is also separate.
The sun in the Human World
The Sun in the Mirror World
2) Composition and Nature of Mirror World
So basically the Mirror World is like a vestibule inside DW, between the Human World and Demon World proper. Acting as sort of buffer space between the two. But make no mistake, it is still part of DW, not something external to it. It can be accessed through various reflective surfaces acting portals like Mirrors or water puddles on ground. Dante alternates between traveling both realms to circumvent obstacles in architecture he finds in his current realms. That is untill he finds Philosopher's Stone and arrive at a certain place inside Mirror World where a seal can be neutralized so that you can use the portal and arrive directly at the enterance of Mundus castle in Underworld. Tony explained the sealing/unsealing reason already.
For example
You can find the location indexes and maps mentioning various locations inside MW Dante moves through.
But the most important fact which proves that MW is part of DW is that when Mundus is "dead", DW starts collapsing. To escape the imminent destruction of the realm you have to pass through same areas you have moved through before in reverse order, essentially retracing your steps. And guess what? You pass through locations in MIrror Realm and unsurprisingly MW is also collapsing. Because it is part of the DW. If you stay put inside the Upside Down Cathedral ( a vertically reflected room inside MW) while the timer runs out, you end up losing.
For example
You can find the location indexes and maps mentioning various locations inside MW Dante moves through.
But the most important fact which proves that MW is part of DW is that when Mundus is "dead", DW starts collapsing. To escape the imminent destruction of the realm you have to pass through same areas you have moved through before in reverse order, essentially retracing your steps. And guess what? You pass through locations in MIrror Realm and unsurprisingly MW is also collapsing. Because it is part of the DW. If you stay put inside the Upside Down Cathedral ( a vertically reflected room inside MW) while the timer runs out, you end up losing.
3) Irrelevancy of MW in scheme of Low1C
The Mirror World is irrelevant in the grander scheme of Low1C. It's sole purpose was to display that a low2C realm is embedded in Higher Dimensional Latice of DW as of present timeline in DMC. Which is unnecessary because Human World did used to serve that function back when it was born and brought up inside Demon World. But since it has the current status of separation from DW credits to Pluto, a more current example of Demon World encompassing a low2C realm was
preferable. Which Mirror World did spectacularly. But HW serves the same function in so far as encompassment is concerned.
if you still want more recent example then look no further than DMC2 Novel, where Void Mundus combined HW and DW again thus that HW is encompassed by it. Effectively serving the same prupose.
The sole reason I am defending MW so passionately is because as far as power scaling goes, Mirror World scaling for an additional Universe in 3A/2C scaling was my baby, this is going as far back as late 2020 when I used to scale on Amino and I hadn't even joined the then DMC server or Vs Wiki. The only two universes then accepted were HW and DW. No one really noticed MW aside from me. It took a lot of convincing on my part to convince my team that current 2C can scale to 3 universes instead of 2. Almost 2 years of back and forth. Until PoC happened and Sevil used it for his own machinations, which I approved of.
--------------------------x----------------------------------x-------------------------------------x-------------------------------------x
First of all I disgaree with DT in certain context, while not in another.
The thing about Multiverses is that it has more to do with collection/numbers/count of universes. Rather than their size as whole added individually. Especially since the only reason Multiverse destruction is special because of 5D space between universes which is assumed as unkown distance between universes.
It is also how one 2A multiverse can be scaled over and above another 2A multiverse in range and/or power without number of universes ever being factor. Unless of course number of universes equal Uncountable Infinity in number. This interuniversal/interdimensional difference is also responsible for low1C incase it is infinite.
Now when you compare sizes of two seperate and exclusive/external universes in a vacuum in then DT is right. One 4D isn't necessarily bigger than other 4D. Which is why whether it is Planck length sized spatial dimension or infinite sized spatial dimension, mathematically both are low2C, because such is size is dictated by temporal dimension, due to it's shtick of uncountable infinity.
It's a different matter entirely that in so far as fictional verses are concerned low2C is not allowed below spatial size of 46.6 billion light-years, which I find funny really, because imagine you shave off 1 mm of length off of the radius of low2C standard universe and suddenly the low2C becomes just a really high 3B Multi galactic tier dimension with a radius just one milimeter below 3A universe. But it is what it is I guess.
But coming to the main point, where DT is wrong is when two realms are compared in size when one is encompassed by another. Because now you are dealing with one universe laid out in higher dimension of another universe. And this interdimensional distance being infnite is what makes encompassing universe a low1C structure.
I solely blame Ultima and DT for still not having done Tier 2 revision thread where they were going to collapse the current system of profiling 4D structures.
All in all the manga statements of 1) light vs dark infinite sizes and 2) Demon Species and Underworld as a whole observing HW as an insignificant thing. Both offer qualitative and quantitative proof for low1C DW.
Aside from that Ultima has already clarified that the excepts you posted from tiering QnA apply for power of characters not size of structures. And @Tanin_iver and @Tony already cited relevent parts of Tiering System with the necessary math to support our cause. I might chime in on that later.
That is all I have to say for this post.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- #186
Uh, did you mean to double post?
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mistake, I deleted it, Wanted to fix the imgur links
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Okay so I was expecting that I'd need to type a more long-winded post comprised of what little I can recall about Devil May Cry powerscaling, but really, as I've read through the thread... I think Tony has summed things up pretty well (though I think there's some hostility that seriously needs toning down). My one additional comment that I'd like to add though, is...
Wouldn't needing a portal to get to the Demon World support it being of a higher dimensionality? I say this because realms of a higher dimensionality can't be accessed through normal means, such as physical travel. This is something that's even noted in our standards for higher dimensions. So the necessity of a portal to access the Demon World would actually indicate that it cannot be accessed through normal means.
Now, I'm not saying that this is the be-all end-all, otherwise all pocket dimensions would be Tier 1, but I do believe that combined with the points Tony has made, this should remain Low 1-C. I know it was said that it wasn't intended to be Low 1-C, but honestly... I don't see how that matters? Things don't go according to plan, but that doesn't mean they should be axed simply because they didn't go according to plan.
Wouldn't needing a portal to get to the Demon World support it being of a higher dimensionality? I say this because realms of a higher dimensionality can't be accessed through normal means, such as physical travel. This is something that's even noted in our standards for higher dimensions. So the necessity of a portal to access the Demon World would actually indicate that it cannot be accessed through normal means.
Now, I'm not saying that this is the be-all end-all, otherwise all pocket dimensions would be Tier 1, but I do believe that combined with the points Tony has made, this should remain Low 1-C. I know it was said that it wasn't intended to be Low 1-C, but honestly... I don't see how that matters? Things don't go according to plan, but that doesn't mean they should be axed simply because they didn't go according to plan.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- #189
Okay, yes. This I understand entirely. In fact, I agree with it. The problem is that this is not actually enough for low 1-C. The HW is effectively infinite because it is low 2-C. As you put it, the DW is the HW x infinity. Except under the current tiering standards, infinity x infinity isn't low 1-C. This is because infinity x infinity would merely be infinity + infinity + infinity ad infinitum, which is just regular infinity. Rather, to get something like qualitative superiority you'd need infinity^infinity (ie; infinity x infinity x infinity... repeating infinitely). As DT has put it, in order to get a higher level of infinity, you'd need an infinite exponent.
In short:
-Infinity x Infinity is not low 1-C.
-Infinity^Infinity is low 1-C.
DMC has evidence of the former. There is not evidence of the latter.
If it's irrelevant then I'll just drop it lol. But I'll also point to the same statements from Ultima and DT saying that just having a low 2-C structure inside of a bigger structure does not qualify for low 1-C.
It absolutely isn't. Any realm that's low 2-C or higher can't be accessed through physical travel, because of this clause on our universe page:
Actually, like you pointed out, it'd apply to many pocket realms as well. It doesn't help to prove how big a space is, just that its its own space-time (which, in the case of the DW, is true).
...No? We explicitly disallow higher degrees of 2-A. There is no "above baseline 2-A".
Glad we agree on this
...No, because like I've pointed out a hundred times before, encompassing a low 2-C structure isn't low 1-C. This is something that - as I mentioned earlier - both Ultima and DT have outright said. The fact of the matter is, you can't just skip the requirement for qualitative superiority just because one realm encompasses another; You need QS for any of this shit to fly, so until you prove that, none of this matters.
The latter just doesn't work at all, because shit like that is textbook flowery language that showcases the massive difference in power between demons and humans, or how lowly they think of the human realm as a whole; They're not going "the human realm is pathetic specifically because I inhabit a higher-dimensional space that lets me trivialize 4-dimensional space-times", and we shouldn't assume that.
How many times do I have to teach you this lesson, old man??
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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And yes, this does matter, because you can't downgrade a verse to a stat nobody agreed to. Imagine if TTGL lost its high 1-C rating, and then someone edited the verse down to 1-C; Would that not be completely against the rules?
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Also this was literally uncalled for. Especially the heading. Please do not do this again in the future. Staff are watching.
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You say "nobody" when it was just one person saying they didn't intend for the rating to become this. Not how it works. If the arguments for it exist, you can't just say "well it wasn't intended so no"
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Anyways, that point aside, my stance remains that what Tony has responded with makes the most sense to me atm, so that's where I stand currently
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- #195
Yeah man a footnote at the end of a completely unrelated CRT is totally a good reason to change an entire verse's rating to low 1-C.
Perhaps this wouldn't be an issue if the opposition wasn't uh. Blatantly fucking lying? Because I have seen multiple people claim that the QS definition doesn't mention size, when it very obviously and repeatedly does.
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Drop the accusations Fuji, this isn't helping anyone here.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- #198
Absolutely not. You cannot sit here and tell me that saying "size isn't on the FAQ" isn't an obvious lie when, you know,
(highlighted in green in case I need to make this any more obvious)
He stated that it would be low 1-C at best, and it would need to meet the very specific standards we have for tier 1. Which it doesn't because your only evidence is "it's infinitely larger than infinity", which about a dozen different sources can tell you isn't low 1-C.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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- #199
Bump
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By the logic of the infinite, all (countable) infinites are the same size; it is unintuitive, but it is math.
Uncountable infinite is where things start being bigger than countable infinite.
So, by that point, it would be Low 1-C.
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