- 4,648
- 963
- Thread starter
- #41
Ok, I have added and answered the counterarguments in the op.
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
No, you know that adding more human souls increases the value exponentially.I countered the "Monster with the Human SOULs" argument long ago, I don't know why you're insisting on using it.
SOUL absorption isn't additive, it's incremental. A Monster with a human SOUL is unquantifiably higher than the sum of a human and a monster.
Adding a Human SOUL is incremental, a monster is adding a human SOUL, not the contrary.No, you know that adding more human souls increases the value exponentially.
You don't know if adding a singular monster soul to a human soul gives a noticeable increment. In fact, the end of the game goes against this.
That's the...You know how Asriel failed to absorb the soul of Napstablook (And possibly that other monster that didn't know who Frisk was)? Yet missing that/those soul(s) didn't matter and he still destroyed the barrier?
You're actually contradicting yourself, that's unintelligent. First, you already responded your own senseless "contradiction" above.Oh, and as a reference for the future:
Exponential functions don't do anything with a single unit of something. So yeah, in this context exponential growth is not a valid argument.
So the difference between a human and a monster with a human soul is that the monster has an adicional monster soul.There is not a single unit.
there are two.
1 Human SOUL, and 1 Monster SOUL.
Yes it does. SOUL absorption amplifies the strength of both unquantifiably higher than the sum of their parts. That's a fact, you're just denying it for the sake of denying itTherefore exponential growth doesn't work in this context.
No, I'm saying that in an exponential function 1 vs 1+[Insert however weaker Asriel's soul is from a human soul] aren't very different from each other. I don't think you want to debate math.Yes it does. SOUL absorption amplifies the strength of both unquantifiably higher than the sum of their parts. That's a fact, you're just denying it for the sake of denying it
It cannot be defined by basic math.No, I'm saying that in an exponential function 1 vs 1+[Insert however weaker Asriel's soul is from a human soul] aren't very different from each other. I don't think you want to debate math.
Your counters are not set in stone, nor are they considered facts by the participants of the thread, or even valid for that matter. It was disagreed by supporters and a staff member, so it's mostly rejected as of now. If there's a sudden burst of agreements from Staff, then it can go through. (Obviously I will step in if that happens)Wait, I answer to all counterarguments but because some people said "I dissagree FRA" it is rejected? I will have to re-read the discussion rules because I'm pretty sure that's not how it works
1. No one said why the strenght boost from determination is directly related to how strong your soul is when Undyne the Undying proved that yo be false.We consider that, based on how much Omega Flowey has shown to use and depend on the 6 SOULs to have his time powers (only possible through determination, the literal reason why Human SOULs are 8-B), warping reality similarly to Asriel (but to a much lesser degree), he is likely able to use all the power from said SOULs. Same applies to Frisk, they have shown to use determination to access the power of their SOUL to resist stuff a power equvalent to 7 SOULs, the idea of them being able to use the power of a singular SOUL at the peak of their determination (which also influences their AP) is perfectly fine.
Pretty sure Undyne the Undying is evidence against some of your points, I don't think it's a good idea to use her.Well, it's not My fault that:
1. No one said why the strenght boost from determination is directly related to how strong your soul is when Undyne the Undying proved that to be false.
No one is saying RW is 8-A. We're saying it's a clear depiction of Flowey abusing the powers the SOULs have, showing he has access to it. We have no reason to assume that access is limited by any means.2. No one said why warping reality is 8-A (Or why we consider P. Flowey to have RW when there's a blog linked in several pages that goes against it).
It doesn't outright prove it, nor did I try to say that. It's supporting evidence that Frisk has enough Determination to do that.3. Why Frisk's low 2-C durability proves that they have has 8-B AP at any point when their AP and Dura don't correlate at those levels.
Name one.Pretty sure Undyne the Undying is evidence against some of your points
... thanks for explaining the reason for this CRT?The strength of the SOUL is not a topic for debate, they are 8-B. You have a problem with access to that power.
Lack of feats, the fact that those humans with 8-B souls were killed by a race that peaks at 9-A.No one is saying RW is 8-A. We're saying it's a clear depiction of Flowey abusing the powers the SOULs have, showing he has access to it. We have no reason to assume that access is limited by any means.
Well, can we drop it? Is supporting evidence for both sides and I'm tired of hearing it.It doesn't outright prove it, nor did I try to say that. It's supporting evidence that Frisk has enough Determination to do that.
I'm not against those stats being variable, I'm against 8-B specifically: for AP due to lack of feats, for dura because it makes as much sense as any value between 9-A and low 2-C.Rodri, determination AP and dura varies, if you have a problem with that then please revise Frisk's file in its entirety
"Monsters can use the full power of their SOULs just by being attuned to it"Name one.
Feats are not a requirement for ratings based on accumulative values. If a character is 2x stronger than a 8-A+, they wouldn't need to present a Low 7-C feat for this rating to be applied, that's terrible reasoning and indexing.Lack of feats, the fact that those humans with 8-B souls were killed by a race that peaks at 9-A.
It shows the literal peak of determination being achieved by Frisk.Well, can we drop it? Is supporting evidence for both sides and I'm tired of hearing it.
Explain."Monsters can use the full power of their SOULs just by being attuned to it"
But that would be upscaling from someone that has a feat.Feats are not a requirement for ratings based on accumulative values. If a character is 2x stronger than a 8-A+, they wouldn't need to present a Low 7-C feat for this rating to be applied, that's terrible reasoning and indexing.
You had until the last sentence. There are 3 examples for determination stat boosts being unrelated to how strong your soul is (Adding those extra 2 to the OP now).You do realize we're not arguing that "Billy the random child from Undertale" is automatically 8-B just by having a 8-B SOUL, right?
We're saying, a Human SOUL have more power than all 9-B and 9-A monsters combined, so the potential peak of a human is 8-B. The strength is tapped through determination.
Undyne's SOUL is far stronger than what she has shown without peak Determination.Explain.
"upscaling" would be "higher than 8-A+, therefore Low 7-C"But that would be upscaling from someone that has a feat.
There isn't any. Undyne's proof that Determination can allow you to use more powerful magic (which is from the SOUL), therefore use more power of said SOUL.You had until the last sentence. There are 3 examples for determination stat boosts being unrelated to how strong your soul is (Adding those extra 2 to the OP now).
One little problem.Those kids died because they only had access to 9-B levels of Determination.
Uh, no they didn't, Flowey had access to SAVE/LOAD at the time lolOne little problem.
Those kids had the power of SAVE&LOAD
(Toriel dialogue about Deja Vu stuff when she met them.)
So idk maybe Asgore danmaku pattern were much more insane.
No, that's wrong! ... I think. I'm sure we've no idea of the exact time frame Flowey came into existence. Flowey could've come after Asgore got the first soul, and his presence effectively disabled the other human souls from SAVEing & LOADing, or, Flowey could've come into existence after Asgore got all six human souls (somehow) and during that long time period before Frisk entered the underground, and Flowey was the only person in the Underground who could SAVE & LOAD. Hell, we don't even know how strong the other humans were compared to Frisk, other than the fact that Frisk was the only human that could beat Asgore - who more or less was pulling his punches and didn't want to fight in the first place.Uh, no they didn't, Flowey had access to SAVE/LOAD at the time lol
Yeah, but the other humans still didn't have enough determination to control the timeline, I believe.No, that's wrong! ... I think. I'm sure we've no idea of the exact time frame Flowey came into existence. Flowey could've come after Asgore got the first soul, and his presence effectively disabled the other human souls from SAVEing & LOADing, or, Flowey could've come into existence after Asgore got all six human souls (somehow) and during that long time period before Frisk entered the underground, and Flowey was the only person in the Underground who could SAVE & LOAD. Hell, we don't even know how strong the other humans were compared to Frisk, other than the fact that Frisk was the only human that could beat Asgore - who more or less was pulling his punches and didn't want to fight in the first place.
Flowey didn't exist at the time when Kids where there, Alphys asked about human SOULs and inserted their DT into flower.Uh, no they didn't, Flowey had access to SAVE/LOAD at the time lol
Flowey probably came after time when at least two human felt there because Alphys said about SOULs, not about SOUL.No, that's wrong! ... I think. I'm sure we've no idea of the exact time frame Flowey came into existence. Flowey could've come after Asgore got the first soul, and his presence effectively disabled the other human souls from SAVEing & LOADing, or, Flowey could've come into existence after Asgore got all six human souls (somehow) and during that long time period before Frisk entered the underground, and Flowey was the only person in the Underground who could SAVE & LOAD. Hell, we don't even know how strong the other humans were compared to Frisk, other than the fact that Frisk was the only human that could beat Asgore - who more or less was pulling his punches and didn't want to fight in the first place.
They basically are asking for evidence that Frisk and Flowey can use the entire power stored in their SOULs, which are 8-B, and 8-A.This is a mess, seems like the reasons for this are much smaller (which is not something bad) than the whole stuff wrote in the OP. I would recommend start from 0 and redact this in a more concise way.
So, Humans could RESET which means they just gave up on one moment, and Asgore doesn't feel very surprised when we talk to Asgore about how much times he killed us and in the fight we reminding him Chara because he told us after fight that we have same feel of HOPE.Thanks, Originy... Methinks is starting to think that Asgore is probably stronger than what he let on in his Boss Battle if he managed to stop several humans and actually take their souls.
It's a mess because they pasted the entire back-and-forth argument they had in the OP, and then attempted to use that as leverage to invalidate their opposition by claiming that they "debunked" all counter-arguments.This is a mess, seems like the reasons for this are much smaller (which is not something bad) than the whole stuff wrote in the OP. I would recommend start from 0 and redact this in a more concise way.
No, her soul is weaker than Asgore's as it didn't persist after death, and Asgore is weaker than Undyne. And there isn't any example of determination on monsters failing to boost their magical attacks (At least not from monsters without messed up bodies that barely hold toghether).Undyne's SOUL is far stronger than what she has shown without peak Determination.
Remember, Magic is through the SOUL, if her magic is 9-A when she is Undyne the Undying, her SOUL scales far higher than what her base form has shown.
No, but the weaker character does have to show a 8 kiloton feat"upscaling" would be "higher than 8-A+, therefore Low 7-C"
What I exemplified was "additive values".
"10x stronger than a 800 Tons character, therefore 8 Kilotons"
Does the character need to show a 8 Kilotons feat for the rating to be applied? Absolutely not.
Still 3 examples of determination boosts being unrelated to how strong your soul is."A human SOUL is stronger than 15000 monsters combined, therefore 8-B"
If Frisk can tap into that power through determination, they don't need to show a feat.
Because is the power of her soul + determination. Also read above.There isn't any. Undyne's proof that Determination can allow you to use more powerful magic (which is from the SOUL), therefore use more power of said SOUL.
Undyne didn't get stronger than her own SOUL, that doesn't make any sense.
The Waterfall Glyphs very obviously predate the Lab entry 5, which given the way it was written we can deduce is the first documentation of Determination."So why? Why does Frisk scale to this power just by peaking Determination?"
Quite simple my fellow, the reason why human SOULs are so much stronger than monster's, is because of Determination, and nothing else.
And oh boy, can I prove that.
The literal next ancient text states the following.
This is literally a follow-up to the previous text describing the power of human SOULs,
"It's power is greater than nearly all monsters, and it's power allows it to persist after death"
Same context.
Now, let's go to the TRUE LAB.
We know the thing Alphys discovers is determination, so this entry alone already implies that DT is the power of the SOUL.
"it" is very blantantly in context with her first entry.
She is saying she extracted the power of SOUL, which is determination.
Furthermore, she states Determination is the power that allows the SOUL to persist after death. The same power described to be stronger than all the monsters combined in the ancient texts!
And that's it, human SOULs are 8-B because of determination. So if you have a peak in Determination, you are using the peak of your SOUL's power.
Loading already does that without needing the full power of your soul, and even without needing a soul. Also, the second greatest, not the greastest"Well, can you prove Frisk can peak?"
Yes.
Frisk's determination is literally the greatest shown in the entire game, being able to control time and space based on the resolve to change fate alone.
They peaked against Asriel, as they literally refused to die due to determination alone. This is the greatest showcase of determination ever.
Yes, strong enough to be nearly one-shoted by someone with less determination and no soul power
You... don't need to die to load. Hell, Flowey could do it (Before Frisk showed up) even thought he had less determination than Frisk at the beginning of the game.Omega Flowey did things not even Frisk was capable of, SAVE state, and LOAD state, without the need to die.
And Determination is not Soul Power, so that peak is a big fat "Unknown".Just his will alone to change fate (Frisk dodging his attack) is enough to make the timeline snap back to the save slot.
Omega Flowey also have 6 SAVE slots, one for each SOUL, which he can use freely, which proves he can use DT from all 6 SOULs.
Both Frisk, and Omega Flowey can use the fullest extent of their Determination. They should scale to their respective values. (Though Frisk just scales to it at their peak)
Flowey couldn't have coexisted with any of the 6 humans when they were alive. Otherwise, given his desires to get the human souls, he would have tried to kill them and get their souls.Uh, no they didn't, Flowey had access to SAVE/LOAD at the time lol
That's just inconsistent. Determination is what gives a SOUL the strength to persist after death.No, her soul is weaker than Asgore's as it didn't persist after death, and Asgore is weaker than Undyne. And there isn't any example of determination on monsters failing to boost their magical attacks (At least not from monsters without messed up bodies that barely hold toghether).
The 800 Ton character has to show a 8 Kiloton feat. Great logic Dante.No, but the weaker character does have to show a 8 kiloton feat
None.Still 3 examples of determination boosts being unrelated to how strong your soul is.
Determination empowers and come from the SOUL.Because is the power of her soul + determination. Also read above.
Don't you say?!?!The Waterfall Glyphs very obviously predate the Lab entry 5, which given the way it was written we can deduce is the first documentation of Determination.
The leap in logic is Olympic.Moreover, the Lab entry 2 makes mention of "soul power", meaning monsters already had a measurement for soul strenght
You're absolutely unreasonable.before the discovery of determination, yet Alphys goes out of her way to make a new term for it as if "soul power" and "determination" weren't synonyms, AND on top of that, the first thing Alphys does is give determination attributes that:
1) Aren't related to AP
2) Are present in characters that aren't 8-B.